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PakSets and Customization => Pak128 => Topic started by: VS on February 05, 2009, 02:13:43 PM

Title: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on February 05, 2009, 02:13:43 PM
Hello!

After some thought and reading about making open source friendly to contributions and such, I decided to start moving in that way, finally for real.

Nearly all objects have assigned authorship. This might be seen as a bureaucratic thing, but was necessary to get right before even starting to look at the situation. If you ever wondered where did the revision numbers go when nothing in the set changed - that's why.

Once the "contacting" period is over (which is almost true), it's time to take a breath and start shoveling away the content that can't be used under the new license. Obviously there is a lot of things that will need replacement. And since brooding somewhere in corner and hoping that people come and do things will not work, here is THE list.



Currently there are three important authors who can't be contacted and their work can be considered lost:
Haru
Rmax500
Propermike
Other than this, there are several other unreachable authors whose contributions count two or three objects, maybe sometimes ten.

Note: everyone whom I managed to contact agreed. The problem is just getting to them.

Removal of all their objects, combined, will hurt the set in many different ways. Analysis...


As you can see, these are all "unique" assets. The rest, like city houses or citycars, will suffer a loss in diversity, but not critical.



Of course there are also some positives!

Perhaps the most interesting part is that I managed to assemble a large (emphasis really intended) collection of rail vehicles for 19/20th century times. As long as someone can go through this ocean and sort out what is acceptable and what not, the starting date coud move as far back as 1850. The "surplus" vehicles might be used to fill the narrow gauge waytype, too.

There is a lot of houses from Raven, waiting just to replace other buildings or possibly be coded as cmpletely new objects.

Nearly all important objects (without which some aspect of game won't work) can be kept or substituted temporarily.



What must be done in order to meet the goal - get 128 to a free, releasable state?

Priorities:

1) Factories

Steel mill (steel_mill)
Goods factory (classical_goods_factory)
Electronics (electronics_factory)
Forest (Nutzwald)
Sandquarry
Materialswholesale
Home market (Moebelhaus)
Surface coal mine (open_coal_mine)
Gas station (modern_fuel_station)

Either the author is unknown, or unreachable. Some are of very low quality, too.

2) Game objects

Schwebebahn depot and stations.

3) Vehicles

I guess that the existing content can be spread along the timeline enough to keep the set usable. Preferred order:

Locomotives for all purposes - rail transport is the blood of all transport games!
Passenger (high speed) sets
High capacity buses (double deckers?)
Trucks - meaning these that pull trailers, the "American" kind
Ships - we'll need almost everything. Some reefers for meat & fish, something for cars, goods, and big psg. liners and small ferries.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: IgorEliezer on February 05, 2009, 02:17:16 PM
VS, have you tried to get authors' e-mails from old forum?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on February 05, 2009, 02:21:20 PM
Yes. The pak128 author "cheatsheet" has 84 entries, of which some 95% have email addresses. Unfortunately nothing helped.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: The Hood on February 05, 2009, 02:45:34 PM
See my comment in the "who's who" thread about using PakBritain graphics if you think they are graphically consistent.  You can use any of mine, and Kieron is happy for his stuff to be released on opensource too (I'm putting everything together to upload all current sources I have to PakBritain sourceforge in the next few days)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: vilvoh on February 05, 2009, 04:13:59 PM
Wouldn't be possible to use industry graphics from before-rmax's epoch? I'm sure there must be some stuff from Mhz or Napik, somewhere... :-\
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on February 05, 2009, 08:05:18 PM
No. We even have (still!) a few uglies, particularly the home market, which just sucks for crying out loud.

There are a few things that could be used as goods factory, but other than that, no.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: dantedarkstar on June 03, 2009, 09:42:02 PM
Sorry for exercising necromancy, but I wanted to ask:

Are the opensource factories still sorely needed for pak128, and if so which ones are most critical ?
I ask, because I feel like making attempt at some buildings, and incidentally making those that are in demand would be good, wouldn't it ? :)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on June 03, 2009, 10:21:14 PM
Of course! It's still the same:

Steel mill (steel_mill)
Goods factory (classical_goods_factory)
Electronics (electronics_factory)
Forest (Nutzwald)
Sandquarry
Materialswholesale
Home market (Moebelhaus)
Surface coal mine (open_coal_mine)
Gas station (modern_fuel_station)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: whoami on June 04, 2009, 08:51:49 PM
Dantedarkstar will need the .dat files for these existing ones, to encode the new ones, doesn't he?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on June 04, 2009, 09:02:10 PM
Hmmmm... does he? I think the only settings needed to carry over are production settings and maybe climate. Since hte new ones will most likely have different size (?), we'll probably need the old ones for backward compatibility. Keeping it simple, let them stay under old name, so the new ones get new names anyway. Image coding is dependent on the item at hand anyway, so - there is nothing I could think of to carry over.

I'll attach them nevertheless.
http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/factories-dats.zip
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: dantedarkstar on June 04, 2009, 09:15:51 PM
Uhm... I "manufactured" my own dat file :)
Of course it will probably have to be tweaked before being incorporated into pak128. And the person to do the tweaking would be probably you, since you have big picture of the whole industry etc. I'm here mainly to supply graphics.
So far I learned that minimum production and production variance doesn't behave like described in simutrans-germany wiki. I get final numbers about twice as large as I expected from the values I put in.

Anyway, version 0.1 sand quarry is already done (under the name sand_quarry, feel free to change it anytime or tell me what name should I use if there's a grand scheme for that). Further versions will emerge as I gather strength to tweak it.


When I'm finished with quarry, I think I'll try tackling Steel Mill. I expect it to be a lot tougher than sand quarry. After all, I can't do worse than the current one and... well... it looks complicated :-X
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on August 21, 2009, 02:28:26 PM
So, perhaps the list should be refreshed.

Right now, these factories do not have a free replacement:

Steel mill (steel_mill)
Goods factory (classical_goods_factory)
Electronics (electronics_factory)
Forest (Nutzwald)
Materialswholesale
Home market (Moebelhaus)

The rest is either substitutable by other items or not needed.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Lmallet on August 21, 2009, 03:24:35 PM
Regarding forests, Fabio was working on something here: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=1566.0
Was it ever completed?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on August 21, 2009, 04:00:10 PM
Fabio is always slow, behind the scenes, and surprises everyone. I guess we've got to wait for a surprise ;)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on August 22, 2009, 06:03:30 PM
Fabio is always slow, behind the scenes, and surprises everyone. I guess we've got to wait for a surprise ;)
:)

actually, sudden changes in life make difficult to keep a steady working plan ;)
i promise i'll do something about it soon (i don't paint nor play since march...)



EDIT:

check out the news here (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=1566.msg30054;topicseen#msg30054)

EDIT2: UPDATED TODAY
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on September 14, 2009, 03:27:29 PM
Any news on the market and the steel mill?? I'll start and old style goods mfg soon; Btw I also have some work on planes, where I've detected a couple of vehicles more would finish that section for a long time (posted here (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=1470.msg32340#msg32340).

Maybe we could make a list (not only of industries, but general) and keep it updated here to see the progress... What do you think?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: sdog on October 13, 2009, 02:28:43 PM
this might be a silly question, but even after an extensive search i couldn't find the sources of pak128. there mus't be an svn repository but i couldn't find the link to it.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: vilvoh on October 13, 2009, 02:49:47 PM
pak128 is not opensource yet, so there's not open public repository to where you can get the sources. It's on the way to turn into open source, but there're some basic objects that need replacement. You can get a free version of pak128 called openPAK128 at Nightlies site, but I think it's not as playable as the original version.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: sdog on October 13, 2009, 03:11:59 PM
i'm looking exactly for those sources of openPAk128. i'm not sure if werniman compiles the nightlies from the non-free pak128 by excluding non-free or it's own svn, git etc.

i suppose that part of the full pak128 is not under an open license doesn't neccessarily require it not to be available openly, since copyright prevents the use outside of simutrans. but i'd not be surprised if it wasn't.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: vilvoh on October 13, 2009, 03:18:41 PM
As far as I know, it compiles the openPAK128 version from a private repository, but I don't know the details. On the other hand, I guess pak128 mantainers, basically VS, prefers to open the pak128 repository when everything is ready, instead of releasing it incrementally. Anyway, I guess that If you request him some free content, he'll surely provide it.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: sdog on October 13, 2009, 03:29:28 PM
vilvoh, gracias por la respuesta.

i think completeness of a project would indicate that a version control isn't necessary anymore. but i also reckon it's likely quite some work to really branch off the open pak128.

i'm mainly asking since i just wanted to see the sources, in order to decide if i will either contribute to james petts pak128.britain port to experimental or can start some work on a port of open pak128 to experimental simutrans parameters. (that's in my oppinion the more promissing approach to some simulation aspects)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: vilvoh on October 13, 2009, 04:13:41 PM
Well, the sources of pak128.Brittain are available at the official SVN (http://simutrans.svn.sourceforge.net/) >> pak128.Britain folder, so you can have a look.

Anyway, and this is my personal opinion, STExp is a completly new and independent version of Simutrans, there's no compatibility with official paksets therefore If I must decide between collaborate in a new pakset with full support for STExp from scratch or port an existing one, I would bet for the first option.

As I see it, porting an existing pakset may need to rebalance everything, in addition to add the new features, as these ones might influence in basic parameters like price, running cost, power, gear, etc.. As far as I've heard, balancing paksets is one of the most annoying task in Simutrans.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: sdog on October 13, 2009, 06:04:03 PM
right now balance of pak128 with experimental is rather good (tested with passengers only). it's almost impossible to make any profit, as good as impossible to make enough profit to expand. but it is possible. so it's about perfect from my point of view. actually much better than in simutrans standard, where it's extremely easy to make huge profits.

experimental's balance is not so far from standard away at the moment. i think james et al did a great job there sofar.

it is very sensible however to work on pak128 britain however. it's just, while i think it is very good, i don't love it. it's just to british, and orderly. i very much like the chaotic twist in pak128, with equipment more or less randomly picked from allover the world, some graphic inconsitencys and so on. it's my favourite pak set, and i really long for using some of the experimental features with it.

by the way: basic compatibility with experimental should be achieved very easily. i think only some weight limits of ways need to be changed. gravel road to 999t (to allow that huge bulk truck to be operated); city roads to 41t; the cheapest rails to 75t instead of 70t (all profitable train engines in the early game can't be used on slow rails atm)


ps.: sorry for straying to far from topic. (if one of the mods objects, please move it in a new thread, thanks in advance)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on October 13, 2009, 06:46:50 PM
Well, as it stands...

Regarding "open":

Regarding experimental:
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: sdog on October 13, 2009, 07:32:08 PM
thanks for your reply Vladimír,
i will answer roughly in order of your items.

it wasn't clear to me how restrictive the licence under wich the non-free content of pak128 was used is regarding the sources.

do items 2 and 3 mean that the free content's sources will only be publicly available when the missing things are completely available, or those necessary for pak128 to work are available?

the great possibility i see when pak128 becomes open is that there could be quite a lot of branches, practicaly everyone who likes (and can) modifying it for himself.
i'm not so sure what you mean with breaking the community. would you consider different forks and branches of the sourcecode as such a break? would you consider the linux community, as an example to make the question less abstract, as broken or fractured? there are thousands of different distributions, and contributers and users have free choice where to invest work or what to use. but on the other hand it does not appear to be fractured to the outside (e.g. linux vs. windows users flame wars)

i read in another thread that makeobj would ignore parameters not specified in it's build. if that's the case dat files containing parameters for experimental could be compiled for trunk without change of files.

the only problem i see immediately is the maintenance, exp. offers running costs and fixed monthly costs. they would need to be tweaked. However this could be easily solved, if james just introduces a new parameter for exp. running costs and using that.

thank you for offering to implement our suggestions to make pak128 as it is, more compatible with experimental. i'll keep my eyes open and post some. out of my head they're the ones in my previous posting.

there's another question forming in my mind:
what is the status of the .dat files of non free content? most likely was part of it written by the original author and part by someone else, balancing the pak? some parameters in it is just information (like seats in a bus) that is not copyrighted. others might be guesses, wich would be copyrighted.

sdog
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: DirrrtyDirk on October 13, 2009, 08:53:43 PM
You can't really compare the Linux community to Simutrans. Linux is bigger by several orders of magnitude. So it's a bit far fetched to say that branching is no (potential) problem based on the fact that it works for the Linux community. Oh yes, if we had these hundreds or thousands of people worldwide working on Simutrans...  ;)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: sdog on October 13, 2009, 09:23:22 PM
correct dirrrty dirk,
and i think i only transported what my point not was with that example. very badly phrased by me, and also suggestive. i wanted to ask more detailed if with broken he meant that it is not desired to break it up completely, or also to prevent it to be fragmented, but still cohesive to some degree. as i don't see much danger for the first case, but consider the second quite likely.

ps.: i'm not so sure if it's wise to post this reply, since i've asked more out of curiousity, and i'm reaching troll like post counts. (so just tell me nicely to stfu, and i will :-)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on October 13, 2009, 09:33:21 PM
for instance, i think all dat entries for exp only (e.g. reversibility, comfort level, weight limits) could be put in dats. when running makeobj they will be ignored, but we could run a second time makeobj-exp and compile pak128-exp.
balancing, instead, should be made for std.
instead, way constraints (a cool feature i would really love) would probably create mess in pak128-std.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on October 13, 2009, 10:10:56 PM
Sorry for tl;dr. You asked :P This is definitely not mandatory reading, most of this can be pieced together from my other posts.

it wasn't clear to me how restrictive the licence under wich the non-free content of pak128 was used is regarding the sources.
Hah! A license? You wish! Current status is that it's all more or less based on belief that "they" won't do "bad stuff", open to any interpretation. I don't know how long have you been around, but compared to other communities, our history has been oriented rather on "closed", so it worked. Actually I would dare say rabidly closed. Pakset sources were always locked away and protected and you better not ask for access!

do items 2 and 3 mean that the free content's sources will only be publicly available when the missing things are completely available, or those necessary for pak128 to work are available?
I will recycle a phrase I used recently: it's technically infeasible.

The root of all problems here is ultimately the fact that it's a svn repo. For some reasons we don't want parts of it visible. But it has history and all that. We can't restrict people to checkouts from only some of the folders and from some revisions onward. Well - we can, I am sure a svn hook wizard would hack something together. But it would be absolute hell and defeat the whole point of having a vcs.

Plus, the folder layout has changed a few times - I think maybe once, since it was never a radical overhaul of everything, but there were some smaller long-term changes as well. I don't even remember all the paths that would have to be protected somehow :D

The plan is - roughly - to keep this repo as a backup of what was for ages untold, and with the open version start anew. All of these factors combined together make it easier to wait - IMO.

Of course if you ask for a one-time transfer of all that is open, the needed manual sorting is not that much of a burden.

the great possibility i see when pak128 becomes open is that there could be quite a lot of branches, practicaly everyone who likes (and can) modifying it for himself.
This has been my goal since ever. Actually 128.brit used 128 items as placeholders (still uses?) and... dunno, I think that's the "right thing to do". One of my reasons for going open.

i'm not so sure what you mean with breaking the community. would you consider different forks and branches of the sourcecode as such a break? would you consider the linux community, as an example to make the question less abstract, as broken or fractured?
Scale is the key, everything. I feel Dirk answered that one for me. Not much to add.

Breaking the community is something that does not really have to happen with forks etc. I am just... wary? It's not even that it might be inherently bad, but there is not much to break apart I fear.

i read in another thread that makeobj would ignore parameters not specified in it's build. if that's the case dat files containing parameters for experimental could be compiled for trunk without change of files.
Yep, that's precisely what I meant with "Nothing against features that would enhance Experimental players' games and do not break standard."

the only problem i see immediately is the maintenance, exp. offers running costs and fixed monthly costs (...)
And this is perfect example of "I will not make pak128 use anything that would make it incompatible with standard Simutrans." Note that your suggested solution does fix this concern.

what is the status of the .dat files of non free content?
I can't repeat exactly the words I used already somewhere, but I think there is no value in dats, nothing to copyright. It is like filling in a form. No new value created. If you want all dat files of pak128, be my guest :)

This is a whole can of worms; one could argue that the parameters can be used creatively and that DATs are in fact a declarative language, like html, which would bring up a nice question whether html files can be copyrighted, or what sets apart imperative languages, and if Turing-completeness means anything there or if Lisp or Scala or Python is better than C and God forbid what other crap. Or eventually the highly popular "where do you draw the line if it's all ones and zeros". Let's not go down there... please... :-[

for instance, i think all dat entries for exp only (e.g. reversibility, comfort level, weight limits) could be put in dats. when running makeobj they will be ignored, but we could run a second time makeobj-exp and compile pak128-exp.
balancing, instead, should be made for std.
instead, way constraints (a cool feature i would really love) would probably create mess in pak128-std.
More or less agreed. The way constrains are something I thought would suck mightily if implemented - ever - and as a bit array, even. But later I changed my opinion. They would instantly solve the sea/river ship problem, even if nothing else. The logic in that is powerful. (Which is why I dread it at the same time - it might also lead to unnecessary complexity for player, just because it will be possible with such system.)

Actually I dare say in five years or so, if Simutrans is still around (and it WILL be), it will converge towards experimental, or rather toward what it is/has now & in near future. The conservative "branch" (not really a branch) will be simply a subset of the possibilities, just like pakHajo.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wlindley on October 14, 2009, 03:50:34 AM
It would be wonderful if the Blender sources were part of the repositories as well... then there could be a script to apply the Pak128 or pak128.Britain (or pak64, or pak192 or...) lighting and color schemes, and the appropriate price balancing, and make whatever sets you want.  Even better if those Blender files also incorporated work done for OpenTTD's OpenGFX and other open projects, so we could really have a build-your-own-world pak creation tool.  Am I dreaming or could that be done?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: neroden on October 14, 2009, 05:01:04 AM
So, perhaps the list should be refreshed.
How about another refresher of the list?  With the forest it sounds like we're down to
five missing factories.  Any other holes filled in yet (either factories, or vehicles)?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wernieman on October 14, 2009, 07:40:40 AM
A little Information about "nightly openPAK128"

The diferrent between PAK128 and openPAK128 ist not the SVN. In the generation script ist a Switch, wich could only use the "free" part of the PAK128 or all.

With this switch I geht the openPAK128, without I geht the normal PAK.

So in the source this PAKs are the same and so I could not make an anon acces to everybody to the source...

The Reason for the openPAK128 was:
When somebody whant to help to bring the PAK128 to "open", he could see wich Parts are not there .. and could draw them ...
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: The Hood on October 14, 2009, 08:08:22 AM
@wlindley, you are dreaming.  I reckon about 50% of the graphics work alone in pak128.Britain is getting from the blender model to a correctly aligned png file.  If I didn't have to do that, then pak128.Britain would be a lot further advanced by now!  Someone may come up with a clever automated solution (which would be great), but that would probably be an awful lot of work (I did try myself, but until blender introduce macros I worked out it would be quicker just to do it the manual way after wasting 2 whole evenings on it).  Then there is the whole dat file writing and THEN, the moster of balancing the whole lot.  You get the idea...

However, if you (or anyone else) want to play at converting blends to pngs automatically, I'd be more than happy to supply you with the blends you want from pak128.Britain, and of course dat and pngs are publicly available on SVN. 
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: vilvoh on October 14, 2009, 08:16:48 AM
@wlindley, In addtion to what The Hood has said.

The idea sounds tempting but hard to achieve. First of all, not all objects were painted using Blender, therefore you can't produce scaled version for the different paksets. Then there's another problems. In each pakset, each kind of object has its own scale. The scale is different for trains, ships, road vehicles and buildings. In addition, pak128 scale is not the double of pak64 scale. So it's not a matter of taking the original source files, and using a script, modify the size of the object. In almost all cases you need to correct and deform the original model in order to make it not seem disproportionated. I talking about making shorter, wider, longer, taller, etc.. and many ocasions the result is not satisfactory. The object seems deformed, specially vehicles.

Would be different if we're talking about paksets of the same size (i.e. pak128 and pak128.Britain)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: prissi on October 14, 2009, 07:56:10 PM
Furthermore, in small sizes blends needs a lot of rework and pixel pushing to work out. Raw blend files are almost unusable. (Or they usually are very bland. pak96, which is almost exclusively hand painted and pak64.german, "blended" at 512*512 size and then hand optimized show, what I mean.)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: helifino on October 14, 2009, 10:23:45 PM
until blender introduce macros

Blender has had macros for a long time - they are written in python.  If you know python, open the script editor and go.
http://www.blender.org/documentation/248PythonDoc/
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: IgorEliezer on October 14, 2009, 11:59:07 PM
I bet we have a good amount of 3D models around. Several members have released add-ons generated via Blender ou Skatup (or whatsoever it's called) throughout these years... just we don't know where they are and who keep them.

Ideas to create a temporary a 3D repository for future uses?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: The Hood on October 15, 2009, 07:56:22 AM
The python scripts aren't what I would call macros - you can't record them.  I did write a python script to try and automate the whole rotation thing, but for some reason the different objects rotated different ways and about different centres and I couldn't figure out why.  What I meant was something where you click "record", perform a bunch of actions, click "stop" and it generates the code for you, like in visual basic in microsoft office. 
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: rthkbbc on October 19, 2009, 01:34:13 PM
nice
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wernieman on October 19, 2009, 02:24:08 PM
@IgorTekton

A svn for 3D-Models are not the Problem, ... but I think we must diskus befor we implement and nobody use it....

could we make a new threat with this?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: neroden on October 23, 2009, 05:29:03 AM
How about another refresher of the list?  With the forest it sounds like we're down to
five missing factories.  Any other holes filled in yet (either factories, or vehicles)?


To get back to my question, have any of the missing factories actually been finished?  (Nutswald perhaps?)  If so, which ones are left?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on October 23, 2009, 11:20:37 AM
Sorry, I forgot about the updates here! The recent list of "ouchies":
So as you can see, it boils down mainly to 3 industries.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on October 23, 2009, 01:17:49 PM
  • lots of rail bridges

this are in my TODO list (new tracks are boiling in my graphics factory for long time, now, but there's a lot of work already done... I'd claim it's my ground now ;))


  • materials wholesale - maybe call it builders' yard - concrete, planks, steel and the like

Isn't this one in Raven's TODO list? It seemed already at a good stage of development.


EDIT: Sorry, see VS's reply.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on October 23, 2009, 02:12:21 PM
No, that was the home market (which isn't on this list, is it...)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Spike on October 23, 2009, 02:28:46 PM
Maybe some replacement graphics would do? In the worst case, just a wireframe object with a text "Help to complete pak128.open, contribute graphics" would do ;)

At least this way the long awaited step to open source pak 128 could be done.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on October 23, 2009, 02:30:47 PM
Do you think such step would help more?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Spike on October 23, 2009, 08:16:54 PM
I think it could attract helpers. It will show where the problems are, and also that you really try to get things going. It's worth a try, I think.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Lmallet on October 24, 2009, 12:42:56 AM
I had the same idea than Hajo a few weeks ago.  The missing buildings break a lot of industry chains.  I will use openpak128 exclusively once all the industries are present, but they don't need to have their graphics finalized.  I would be happy with just a red square saying "Steel Mill" for now.  I am sure there would be a few others willing to accept this as well.

And as Hajo said, the more people use it, the more people will see the need for graphics.  It will get more attention than what the forum would get :)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on October 24, 2009, 09:11:54 AM
Well, let's go then!
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wernieman on October 24, 2009, 09:37:04 AM
Little Question:

Could the Script for the "openPAK128" change the grafics? Every "Problem" Faktory are 3x3 Tiles ... so there could be an automatisation ... or?

(I hope you understand me ;o) )
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: neroden on October 25, 2009, 06:27:22 AM
Sorry, I forgot about the updates here! The recent list of "ouchies":
  • lots of rail bridges
  • general (generic) goods factory
  • materials wholesale - maybe call it builders' yard - concrete, planks, steel and the like
  • steel mill
So as you can see, it boils down mainly to 3 industries.

pak128.britain has a very serviceable steel mill, and a tolerable (but dark) builders' yard, but they have different footprints from the ones in pak128.  :-(  3x4 for the steel mill instead of 4x4 and 1x2 for the builders' yard instead of 2x2.  I'm half tempted to take The_Hood's steel mill from pak128.britain and add four tiles of empty space ;-)

Edit: I actually prefer the pak128.britain steel mill image to the existing one.  A lot.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: prissi on October 26, 2009, 02:20:09 PM
SInce some industries will be missed any way, just give the new steel mill a different name from the olf one and provide an entry in compat.tab to replace olf be new. In the worst case people will need an extension building but will be otherwise fine. Does the pak129.britain steel mill come in 4x3 and 3x4? Otherwise making it 4x4 would be a better choice.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: The Hood on October 26, 2009, 02:29:06 PM
Having "borrowed" so much from pak128 for use in pak128.Britain, the concept of pak128 using pak128.Britain images amuses me!

Raven did contact me about getting my blend file for the steel mill to convert it into something for pak128, but then I heard no more.  If anyone else wants any of the blends for pak128.Britain things, just ask and I can let you have them.  Obviously just messing around with the pngs and dats is fine under the artistic license, and you know where those files are :)

And to answer prissi's question, all pak128.Britain industries have 4 rotations (even the 2x2 ones, so that when you rotate the map it looks like you have actually just switched view and not just rotated the earth relative to the factory!).  The steel mill is 3x4 (and 4x3)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: vilvoh on October 26, 2009, 02:46:29 PM
I guess Raven is quite bussy right now. Anyway if pak128 maintainers need help with Blender files, I can help dealing with them, and I guess Zeno can too. Do they include the textures, The Hood?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: The Hood on October 26, 2009, 02:53:15 PM
There are textures on the models, but I suspect things like textures and lightings will be the things that need changing most to get the models into pak128 style.  None of the textures were applied post-render, just cleaning up of a few stray pixels.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on October 28, 2009, 03:36:44 PM
Guys, half the problems with industries are probably gone - Rmax500 just appeared :)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Spike on October 28, 2009, 03:41:07 PM
I should work on a new monument. I don't like the old one, which mostly consist of a former forum avatar of mine.

Edit: If I can overcome distraction and being lazy ...
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wernieman on October 28, 2009, 03:52:19 PM
@VS

Congratulations !!!!
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Lmallet on October 28, 2009, 04:00:22 PM
Guys, half the problems with industries are probably gone - Rmax500 just appeared :)

This is "probably" excellent news!   :)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on October 28, 2009, 04:07:10 PM
Looks like waiting is in some cases a successful strategy ;D
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: whoami on October 28, 2009, 05:07:29 PM
Looks like waiting is in some cases a successful strategy
Let's see how Rmax takes the "Welcome back, we have work for you." ;D
Just kidding...
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: DirrrtyDirk on October 28, 2009, 05:22:52 PM
Let's see how Rmax takes the "Welcome back, we have work for you." ;D
Just kidding...

Wouldn't that be "Welcome back, hand over all your stuff!" instead?  ;D
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on October 28, 2009, 08:34:41 PM
Ehhh. Don't scare him away... please... :police:
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Spike on October 28, 2009, 09:52:37 PM
I should work on a new monument. I don't like the old one, which mostly consist of a former forum avatar of mine.

Need to say sorry, I had mixed that up with another one. The one from pak128 is rather good. Big thanks to the one who draw the socket and flowerbeds! It's great, and I like it much :)

VS sent me to image, and I changed it a tiny bit into a construction engineer. Got a helm now, and a plan. Having a plan is always important ;D

Hope that will be alright. The updated image is on the way back to VS to be includes.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on October 29, 2009, 09:35:39 AM
Guys, half the problems with industries are probably gone - Rmax500 just appeared :)

really?
it's wonderful! beside i really liked that guy, his work is priceless... (I really love it! I hope we didn't lose some sources when he disappeared). It makes me think of my own disappearance one year or so ago.
;D
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wernieman on October 29, 2009, 09:45:25 AM
So ... wich Part of the PAK128 ar now the problem??
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on October 29, 2009, 10:11:38 AM
* materialswholesale (2x2) - sells concrete, planks and steel
* moebelhaus (3x4) - "home market", sells furniture, books, and fertilizer (!)
* electronics factory (3x3)

And of course some (many) vehicles etc. ... but that is not fatal :)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Spike on October 29, 2009, 11:06:46 AM
VS, did you receive my email with the updated monument?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on October 29, 2009, 11:09:48 AM
Yes, thanks! I added it to the set and happily forgot about it immediately.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Spike on October 29, 2009, 11:15:14 AM
Hehe :) Good to know that it's included already (http://forum.simutrans.com/Themes/default/images/post/thumbup.gif)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wernieman on October 29, 2009, 11:57:25 AM
So when we make 3 "Read cuboid" for this 3 Building pakOpen128 could be playable??
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on October 29, 2009, 12:22:51 PM
yes.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on December 27, 2009, 11:34:00 PM
* materialswholesale (2x2) - sells concrete, planks and steel

done!



* electronics factory (3x3)

work in progress: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=4087.msg39771;topicseen#msg39771
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on January 05, 2010, 09:48:18 AM
I'm afraid to say that my parking lot should go to unfree section, too, as it depends on propermike's citycars.
Citycars is really an issue, i'll see if i can take (and adapt) some from Pak128.Britain.
Also, i plan to repaint a couple of Mhz's cars, to add a bit of variety.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on January 12, 2010, 10:16:24 PM
For those without svn access (almost everyone), I packed rev. 827 without non-free material and some useless items. A few non-free items might still persist in schwebebahn folder...

http://128.simutrans.com/download/128svn-export@827.7z

53 MB!
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Gouv on January 13, 2010, 07:20:28 PM
I guess, i'll try home market if it's not already done or in progress by somebody else.
I just need to make a Building 3x4x1 (south/north-side x west/east x height), right?
It wont be animated though.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on January 13, 2010, 08:46:26 PM
That would be great! And if you make the graphic as big as the old one was, one problem less :)

Animation is not necessary at all.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on February 01, 2010, 02:09:38 PM
* materialswholesale (2x2) - sells concrete, planks and steel
DONE

* moebelhaus (3x4) - "home market", sells furniture, books, and fertilizer (!)
Work in progress (Gouv)

* electronics factory (3x3)
DONE

What are the next priorities?
I'm personally trying to
1) resume the works on new tracks/bridges/tunnels
2) going on with new roads/bridges/tunnels
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on February 01, 2010, 02:25:21 PM
I'm personally trying to
1) resume the works on new tracks/bridges/tunnels
2) going on with new roads/bridges/tunnels
Great, fabio :)
I'm looking forward seeing those new tracks from you since long ago!

Btw, my next goal is to make a minimal ship replacing pakset (similar to what I did with planes), which will include a couple of ships for each category, mainly one version for first half of 20th century, and a newer version for 1950 and avobe. Once I got that I'll begin to randomly add new ships, specially newer versions for years 2000+.

PS: But all this will start on wednesday, after I present my end-of-degree project. Imagine, me an IT engineer! ;D
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on February 01, 2010, 02:43:32 PM
PS: But all this will start on wednesday, after I present my end-of-degree project. Imagine, me an IT engineer! ;D

Wow, good luck!
On the other hand, also my time is limited (from none to half an hour, one hour per day, a bit more in weekends).
But things little by little will be done...
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on February 01, 2010, 03:09:56 PM
Perfect. Open 128 is now fully playable in terms of industry! :D Thanks a lot, you really make this happen.

In terms of "object for object" needs there is only one immediate hole: post offices - anyone know who made them? ModernPostOffice & PostOffice. Also Modern_Warehouse from leedsnut, but that is not important.

Next, four rail bridges: Plate_Girder_Bridge, SteelRail, SteelRail2, u_truss_bridge. I guess that belongs to new tracks project, eventually, and can be skipped.

I haven't taken a proper look at the missing buses and trains yet. Ships will be covered by Zeno as he says, so no problem there :) Trams have been made mostly by Raven, but the real problem are these that can be stacked to form longer (2 tile) units. These are seriously useful for things like metro (underground, subway)... 11 items in total.

PS: I got a hold of propermike, which means 95% of citycars stays.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wernieman on February 01, 2010, 03:14:41 PM
Do we need then an "normal" PAK128 nightly??

Or it is better to make only the openPAK128-nightly then?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on February 01, 2010, 03:22:51 PM
In terms of "object for object" needs there is only one immediate hole: post offices
Bus stops HAVE mailboxes only version, but i see it's not the same thing...

Next, four rail bridges: Plate_Girder_Bridge, SteelRail, SteelRail2, u_truss_bridge. I guess that belongs to new tracks project, eventually, and can be skipped.
To be skipped, indeed, I'm completely revising the bridges issue...

PS: I got a hold of propermike, which means 95% of citycars stays.
WOW, this is a GREAT piece of news!
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on February 01, 2010, 03:55:21 PM
... the real problem are these that can be stacked to form longer (2 tile) units. These are seriously useful for things like metro (underground, subway)... 11 items in total.
That's another project I got in mind, a subway pakset consisting in six (maybe increasing to 8 or 9) sets of underground trains, smaller than usual trains (length is 6 IIRC).
You can take a look on a couple of them I got already done, maybe they could do the job: Series 200B (http://graphics.simutrans.com/displayimage.php?album=47&pos=18) and Series 1000 (http://graphics.simutrans.com/displayimage.php?album=47&pos=17).

PS: I got a hold of propermike, which means 95% of citycars stays.
Wow!!  ...Zeno dances around the room...
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on February 01, 2010, 09:12:14 PM
Oh... you made them two carriages but as one vehicle?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on February 01, 2010, 09:40:51 PM
Oh... you made them two carriages but as one vehicle?
Two vehicles. These are sets consisting in two vehicles. I've coded them with restrictive constraints, so only trains with two vehicles allowed, no variations.
Btw, on newer underground trains (from 1970 or so) were adapted to 5 vehicles, which is the formation currently used by all spanish undergrounds.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on February 03, 2010, 03:07:25 PM
I haven't taken a proper look at the missing buses and trains yet.

I love these trains here: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=4005.msg42640#msg42640

Do you think we can ask the author if he wants to release them for pak128 ?

And, generally, when can we try to add material released as an addon (if the author agrees with the license)?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on February 03, 2010, 06:17:18 PM
Well, in principle it's possible. However, I think that Raven had a really good point when he said (once on irc) that a set should be conceptually balanced and well planned. Do we have such plan for 128? By not looking at buses and trains I mean exactly this - I haven't even considered what has to be thought about, yet :P Perhaps this is as good time as any to do it...
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on February 15, 2010, 09:43:45 AM
I've contributed some vehicles these days since I finished my studies and having some free time. These vehicles are  a set of undergraund trains (based on Barcelona's Metro), consisting in 9 trains, and a set of oil tank wagons, consisting of 9 different wagons filling the whole timeline (1870-2000s).

Since some days ago I've been drawing some ships to replace the current unlicensed (not-free) objects in pak. I will post some pictrues, renders and previews in this (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=4307.msg43948#msg43948) post.
Hope you like them all :)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on March 11, 2010, 10:53:21 AM
What is the current status so far? I think it would be good to re-write the listings after the last release (1.4.6).
I've been playing with the open pak nightly (1930 to 1980 with timeline on), and AFAICT, most critical things missing are:
Is there anything I forget about?


PS: I've been suffering some kind of compulsive vehicle painting, so I can contribute with some extra vehicles:
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on March 11, 2010, 12:02:57 PM
  • Rail bridges: I guess Fabio is working on that (part of his track&road renewal set)

Confirmed, I'm working on them, although I'm also working on a full set replacing and it will take a while, moreover, time in the present period is extremely limited, I hope/guess I'll have more later this Spring.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wlindley on March 11, 2010, 12:15:13 PM
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on March 11, 2010, 12:39:40 PM
Zeno - Any chance of a "GM Fishbowl" New Look (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_New_Look_bus) bus, introduced 1959? It's the signature North American transit vehicle.
I'll write it down in my 'candidates notebook'. Dunno when but, someday after I draw a few more ships I could get to it :)

Confirmed, I'm working on them, although I'm also working on a full set replacing and it will take a while, moreover, time in the present period is extremely limited, I hope/guess I'll have more later this Spring.
Aaahh... nice to hear that! Btw, don't care about the time, we will patiently wait, and the pak won't go anywhere ;)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: neroden on March 22, 2010, 03:05:42 AM
So, just to clarify, am I correct about this:
- ALL the factories are now done?  (Is the Moebelhaus /Home Market in the pak?)
- a new post office is the only important missing station?
- the only other vital missing elements are fabio's rail bridges and Zeno's ships?
- Haru is the only major author who can't be found?

Perhaps it will soon be time to switch to a new, public, 100% open source SVN repository for OpenPak128?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on March 22, 2010, 08:28:38 AM
- Haru is the only major author who can't be found?
AFAIK he was found and autorised to release his creations under open source license.

Perhaps it will soon be time to switch to a new, public, 100% open source SVN repository for OpenPak128?
It is planned and it will be done when is the time ;)

There's still a lot of work with tracks, roads and bridges (where fabio is working), and also with ships and some trains (where I am working). Moreover, VS (pak mantainer) is quite busy these days. So there's no need to hurry :)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wernieman on March 22, 2010, 10:46:45 AM
It is in plan, but I don´t know when:

The nightly would only generate the open.PAK128. The generation of the "close" would be go offline.

(There will be pak128.britain on th same place ...)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: neroden on March 23, 2010, 12:37:59 AM
AFAIK he was found and autorised to release his creations under open source license.

Wow, so in the end very little needed to be removed.
Quote
It is planned and it will be done when is the time ;)

There's still a lot of work with tracks, roads and bridges (where fabio is working), and also with ships and some trains (where I am working). Moreover, VS (pak mantainer) is quite busy these days. So there's no need to hurry :)
Well, I don't want to rush anyone, but I would love to see it by next January or so.  ;-)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on March 23, 2010, 08:11:59 AM
Wow, so in the end very little needed to be removed.
Well, I don't want to rush anyone, but I would love to see it by next January or so.  ;-)
The new road/track replacement is a really hard job, so it will take for a while... also *all* ships are about to be replaced; so it's not worthy to say a date, just when it's done :)

Btw you can play the open-pak128 nightly, which can give an idea of current status and playability.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: neroden on April 15, 2010, 12:16:51 AM
The new road/track replacement is a really hard job, so it will take for a while... also *all* ships are about to be replaced; so it's not worthy to say a date, just when it's done :)

Btw you can play the open-pak128 nightly, which can give an idea of current status and playability.

I just want to be able to look around in the commented source code instead of having to unpack .paks, that's all.  :-)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: vilvoh on April 15, 2010, 08:55:43 AM
Why don't you use JimsViewer (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=4109.0) , neroden? It's a pak file viewer..
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: neroden on April 15, 2010, 04:37:27 PM
Why don't you use JimsViewer (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=4109.0) , neroden? It's a pak file viewer..

Thanks, but "It's available only for windows 95/98/XP."  I guess I could port it.  :-/
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: vilvoh on April 16, 2010, 06:53:05 AM
Ops! I forgot you use GNU/Linux. Then, why don't you try to run it using Wine? it works with some other Simutrans tools likes Shades and Tilecutter.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: neroden on April 17, 2010, 08:46:24 AM
Ops! I forgot you use GNU/Linux. Then, why don't you try to run it using Wine? it works with some other Simutrans tools likes Shades and Tilecutter.

OK :-)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Václav on May 02, 2010, 02:11:46 PM
I support making pak128 open. I don't know what is situation around railway stations extensions but some days ago I began work on four rotations railway station extension.

You may see and support its development here, in topic 4 rotations railway station extension (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=5000.0). And as I wrote there, source files will be published after finishing.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: gauthier on May 02, 2010, 03:55:33 PM
all things I create are completely free. Sources will be published but if someone want them before I can send him them.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on May 02, 2010, 04:12:33 PM
Thanks for the offer. Currently I am too busy to do much, but at worst after 8th June there should be plenty of time!

For now, I decided to look at timeline holes in greater detail... and got this. Warning - image heavy link:
http://vs.simutrans.com/remote_images/timeline/

bright red = to be removed,
weak red = no intro date,
green = no retire date,
white = no intro and retire,
gray = nothing interesting.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: gauthier on May 02, 2010, 04:25:08 PM
wow nice pictures, nice work ;)
but I don't understand why do you want to remove some vehicles :/
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Václav on May 02, 2010, 06:36:42 PM
That is targeted against vehicles where copyrights were not gained from its author. It is the same why some buildings had to be made again - and better face was secondary affair.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: gauthier on May 02, 2010, 07:04:40 PM
the creator have been contacted ?

The problem is that the vehicles to delete are almost good ones ...
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Václav on May 02, 2010, 07:22:12 PM
1. Responsible people have been trying to contact them - but sometimes without any result
2. Sometimes it is problem.

-->
To station extension: what level (how much passengers and post) to set?

-->
Please, this request separate into new topic and locate it where it will fit best:
I need to know how to create source *.png file(s) for *.dat file for rotated building when I have more than one original pictures.

I have been using TileCutter 0.3d.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: gauthier on May 02, 2010, 07:38:06 PM
Quote
1. Responsible people have been trying to contact them - but sometimes without any result
Their work could be made open until they appear ...
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: whoami on May 02, 2010, 07:54:21 PM
Please, this request separate into new topic and locate it where it will fit best:
If you know that a new topic is needed, why don't you open it yourself?  ;)

Quote
To station extension: what level (how much passengers and post) to set?
This is the creator's choice. Take one that matches the visible size and intended use. Of course, if they are meant as a replacement for other objects, they should match them in their parameters, too.

Quote
I need to know how to create source *.png file(s) for *.dat file for rotated building when I have more than one original pictures.
Have you looked into the Wiki (http://simutrans-germany.com/wiki/wiki/tiki-index.php?machine_translate_to_lang=&no_bl=y&page=en_BackImage)? That page doesn't say much about rotation, but the necessary parameters seem to be covered there.

Their work could be made open until they appear ...
This would compromise the free distribution of the whole pak-set. Not a good idea.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: prissi on May 02, 2010, 08:16:56 PM
Fishing_Boat_0 is from MHz and who agreed on open sourcing, imho.

Why are all TS_Mack trailers but the bulk trailer removed? Either all or nothing, I think. And TS isn't Thomas?

And the Kagoshima tram never ever reached 100km/h in real life (but since it goes anyway ... )

But the way, does this script also exist in open source? I would like to built somthing like this for pak64 too.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: gauthier on May 02, 2010, 08:17:46 PM
Quote
This would compromise the free distribution of the whole pak-set. Not a good idea.

... why ? I don't understand very well these copyright stuff ...
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Václav on May 02, 2010, 08:25:31 PM
If you know that a new topic is needed, why don't you open it yourself?  ;)
Where? I was not sure where to open it. If I had been sure I would have done it.

Quote
This is the creator's choice. Take one that matches the visible size and intended use. Of course, if they are meant as a replacement for other objects, they should match them in their parameters, too.
Of course that is creator's choice. I only thought that someone would offer it. So for the first (test) distribution I chose number 10 - after logging into SimuTranslator (I am one of translators for Czech language, so I could do it) and viewing level of VictorianStation. But I think it is high.

Quote
Have you looked into the Wiki (http://simutrans-germany.com/wiki/wiki/tiki-index.php?machine_translate_to_lang=&no_bl=y&page=en_BackImage)? That page doesn't say much about rotation, but the necessary parameters seem to be covered there.
I read that - but it is only about stations. Solved.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on May 02, 2010, 08:55:03 PM
gauthier: Very simple. Authors didn't say it's ok to share source -> I can't do that.

prissi: I will upload The script is in this topic (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=1805.0). TS is Timeshock, unfortunately. He helped with most of the trailers, it seems...
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: gauthier on May 02, 2010, 09:11:57 PM
You're not forced to show sources, just keep them in the pak ...

But if a player is a bit courageous he can recreate sources from the game ;) it's just very boring to do ...
By this way I made a two pieces version of the bus "aeromidi" (but just for myself :D )
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on May 02, 2010, 09:13:24 PM
Heh, but I'm going to do exactly that - make the pakset so that everyone can use the sources.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Václav on May 06, 2010, 07:38:42 AM
*. dat and *.png (prepared and also not prepared by TileCutter) files for new railway station extension will be available soon - may be within end of this week.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: neroden on May 06, 2010, 08:26:42 PM
... why ? I don't understand very well these copyright stuff ...

Because -- simplifying a little and leaving out the 'fair use' provisions which are different from country to country -- copyright law says "No permissions granted unless the creator explicitly says so".  So unless the creator says it's OK to release them as free software, it's illegal to do so.

I don't think the current copyright laws are entirely reasonable, but you'd have to talk to your parliament or legislature about that.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on May 07, 2010, 07:52:54 AM
These copyright issues are also interesting given the international framework of Simutrans.

Say, for example, there is a Country where copyright law says "Permissions is granted unless the creator explicitly says not": could we legally put the download as free software in a server based there?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: prissi on May 07, 2010, 03:50:51 PM
Apart from the fact that there is no such country (only all your stuff belong to the state/company/ ... ) the main problem is that I do not sit in such a country. Neither soes SF-server sit there. In germany, you can be even sued (in principle) for such stuff, even though it was legal elsewhere - as long as you are german or your company is.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: gauthier on May 07, 2010, 04:09:24 PM
Quote
but you'd have to talk to your parliament or legislature about that.

French parliament = endless war between socialists and Sarkozy's party  ;D
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Václav on May 12, 2010, 06:42:57 PM
I wrote on thursday of last week that source files would be available within end of week. So I am sorry I am delayed. They are available here, on graphics.simutrans.com (http://graphics.simutrans.com/thumbnails.php?album=102).

There are all needed files - *.dat file, TileCutter processed *.png file and also four original *.png files.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on May 22, 2010, 10:01:54 PM
So! Today I had an explosion of activity, fixed a number of bugs and moved the pakset closer to "open"... a lot. Things left:




General:
--------

Total number of objects...........1981
Number of licensed objects........1725
Number of non-licensed objects.....256
Number of non-attributed objects....51
Number of "system" objects..........68


Chart of contributors (http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?&cht=p&chs=600x400&chd=t:0.0625946491671,0.0550227158001,0.0257445734478,0.0247349823322,0.178697627461,0.161029782938,0.0262493690056,0.0257445734478,0.149924280666,0.290257445734&chl=Napik 6%|Propermike 6%|Vladimir Slavik 3%|Zeno 2%|Patrick 18%|MHz 16%|Fabio Gonella 3%|Haru 3%|Raven 15%|Other 29%)



edit: "moved closer to open" - my brain is making puns even on midnight autopilot ;D
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: sdog on May 23, 2010, 06:13:03 AM
Code: [Select]
Number of non-licensed objects.....256what a magical number!

that table looks quite good!
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on May 23, 2010, 08:45:54 AM
I forgot to mention: ships are in danger but not particularly so, because Zeno is slowly working on that. Also, he made some trains and buses, and there is also a great amount of reverse-engineered material from Raven, so railways could be covered more or less.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: sdog on May 31, 2010, 06:12:03 PM
Quote
Buses - doubledeckers ale solely work of single no-go author

I think a few doubledecker buses should be taken from pak128.britain. The British are the most famous doubledeckers anyway.
Does anyone have an idea which are/were the three to five most prevalent?
[Back in school a bus looking quite a lot like a Routmaster was on the cover of my secon english text book, (the first had a telepone box)]
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: sdog on November 16, 2010, 05:46:12 PM
Ciao VS,
i've just seen you released the sources already as a  zip file (http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=5121.msg50256#msg50256). Thanks a lot! I've downloaded it and having a look on it already.

Two questions though:
Will you open the svn anytime soon in the future?

There is a very extensive tools directory with plenty of python scripts, i think it's only required to get the data into the form it is already in your archive, and not required to 'compile' pak128. Is that so?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wernieman on November 17, 2010, 09:10:39 AM
The Server, witch hostet the SVN for pak128 is no ready to give anonymous access

For "OpenSource" SVN we must change to a better Server ... at example SourceForge??
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on November 17, 2010, 11:10:54 AM
Sourceforge would be a good ption, as it would be consistent with Pak64 and Pak128.Britain.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wernieman on November 17, 2010, 11:24:06 AM
But before this, we must "Clean" the SVN from the "closed source objects"
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on November 17, 2010, 01:27:25 PM
Well. There isn't much left to do. In principle, if some transitional incompatibility was allowed, the game would be playable anyway. Just a few buildings and bridges, that were inaccessible in the nightlies anyway. Which brings a question: should the missing objects be simply removed, or should I drop in placeholder graphics and hope that someone will create new versions?



sdog: These tools are certainly not needed, they just help me a lot with maintenance :) If you want a hassle-free compilation though, get python, put makeobj in path, then execute pakmak.py I'm not sure if the export was complete though... I removed quite some unfree files.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: vilvoh on November 17, 2010, 01:44:32 PM
Which brings a question: should the missing objects be simply removed, or should I drop in placeholder graphics and hope that someone will create new versions?

Make a poll and let Simutrans users decide then... :::)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on November 17, 2010, 02:05:07 PM
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=6236.0

Well, I can always claim this is not democracy if I don't like the outcome :P
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on November 17, 2010, 02:37:43 PM
Railways are now the biggest issue with Pak 128 (specially bridges).
There was a full replacement project - similar to the Road project - on hold for a couple of years due to other projects in the meantime. Check it out here: http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/03822.0/index.html
Unfortunately, most of screenshots got lost, here is one saved
(http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/03822.0/05842/simscr05.png)

I still have all the sources and the project is at an advanced stage-- it misses mostly BRIDGES , and i would like to repaint some of the tunnels, after the experience gained in the Road project. After this one is released, i can revert my work on the Railway project.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wernieman on November 17, 2010, 03:17:39 PM
Could you start in SourceForge with a "new" version?

Without the ClosedSource-Opjekts?

I think it would be a nice Idea to use a "place holder" for the Problem Objekts ....
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on November 17, 2010, 03:41:30 PM
Could you start in SourceForge with a "new" version?

Without the ClosedSource-Opjekts?

Yes, that's the plan. (I think ;D )
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wernieman on November 17, 2010, 04:16:50 PM
There will be a private relocation, the SVN-Server will go off-line for 1 Month, and so I have a important qustion:

Could we bring this year the PAK to SourceForge??

(I hope relocation is in this case the right word for "Umzug")
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on November 17, 2010, 07:54:34 PM
(I hope relocation is in this case the right word for "Umzug")
Do you mean a home move?

Anyway, I also think that SourceForge is the best option. Moreover it would be consistent with existing open source paksets.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: wernieman on November 17, 2010, 08:24:04 PM
Yes ... home move .. from München to Hamburg or Leipzig (but all in Germany)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Spike on November 18, 2010, 09:17:05 AM
Anyway, I also think that SourceForge is the best option. Moreover it would be consistent with existing open source paksets.

Yes, I'll also give my vote to put the open source pak128 on Sourceforge.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: greenling on November 27, 2010, 09:51:38 PM
VS i have here some question.
1 who far it´s the project to transfrom the pak128 set to an openpak128 set ?
2 What passing with the Pakfiles they are be removed out are be exchanede?

greenling
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on March 26, 2011, 04:23:18 PM
Today is very special - last non-free files have been removed from distribution of any kind. So, 128 is effectively free.

Todo...

1) Clean up svn material folder, where Zeno managed to accumulate a pile of various graphics.
2) Release.
3) Create a public svn with all sources on sf.net and use that.
4) Clean and re-import to translator.
5) Deal with removed stuff - addonize what can be done etc.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on March 26, 2011, 04:35:37 PM
Absolutely fantastic news!
Tell me please where I can help, if I can.

1) Clean up svn material folder, where Zeno managed to accumulate a pile of various graphics.
Oh yes, I'm sorry is my fault :P
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on March 28, 2011, 07:18:33 AM
Guys! If you wait for me 1-2 weeks, i'll make the biggest changes needed to the Road pakset, so old roads can go away and new roads come in :)

By the way, I started as well planning the Railtracks replacement set, which hopefully will be faster than Roads to be made, as base ground tracks are ready for a couple of years and bridges + elevated + tunnels will mostly be an adaptation / rework of those for roads. (Don't worry, I'll try to do it in a way which preserves both consistency and uniqueness).
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on April 02, 2011, 02:11:16 PM
Open question then - do we wait for Fabio, or go NOW?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on April 02, 2011, 02:44:24 PM
Well, looking at current development status (everything on these roads does look amazing and rather finished) and the 1-2 weeks fabio is asking for, I'd definitely give him this time. His roads will be a fantastic improvement to the pak, and since it affects to the pak base objects (road infrastructure) I'd wait and make the release once he's done.

So, if this takes 1-2 weeks then my vote goes for wait; if things get slower, then go on with the release and the roads update will come later, no problem.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on April 02, 2011, 04:29:58 PM
OK. Then... what do I do if I have nothing to do? ;D Ah well, I can use the time, too :)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on April 02, 2011, 05:10:10 PM
Thinking about this again, maybe you could integrate current version of roads, as long as objects will not change themselves but graphics only (fabio's can you confirm this?). Later on graphics might be updated as many times as needed.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Fabio on April 02, 2011, 05:44:14 PM
The objects won't change, nor dats.
Future chages will be bugfixes (misalignments, wrong player colours...) and new icons.
If you think they are now already release-worthy, please go ahead and bugfixes will follow.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on April 02, 2011, 06:04:36 PM
At least the integration work is worth now, as long as objects/dats won't change later. Graphics updates should be easy once the roadset is into the pak :)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: greenling on April 02, 2011, 07:46:16 PM
It´s be planed to put the old not openscoure pakfiles in a Folder with history addons?
I collecte histroy pakfiles.

greenling
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: VS on April 02, 2011, 10:09:10 PM
Greenling: yes.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: daffi on December 26, 2011, 11:42:13 PM
So pak128 is now fully open source... ;D
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: DirrrtyDirk on December 27, 2011, 11:06:42 AM
Apart from the things that had to be removed because we could not make them open source (usually because the item's creator could not be asked)... yes.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: daffi on January 02, 2012, 01:56:55 AM
Thanks to simutrans development team  :)
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: agamemnus on February 01, 2012, 07:54:08 PM
I've read and re-read Artistic License 2.0, but I'm still troubled by one key point: if I take the graphics and modify them to create derived versions, the license does not specify who the copyright owner is of the derived version.

Presumably, the modifications in and of themselves are my copyright, and the original graphics are the copyright of the Simutrans community, but an image is both the original and the modifications, combined, so it can't be the copyright of more than one party.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: Zeno on February 01, 2012, 07:57:39 PM
Mmmm... aren't you forced to redistribute that work under the same license?
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: agamemnus on February 01, 2012, 08:21:17 PM
As far as I understand: "kind of". It's very complicated because the license doesn't have any extraneous text.

There's also another complication in that the Artistic License was written for programs, not art, and it doesn't explain what happens when you only use parts of the package. It only gives two scenarios: distribution as a modified "source" and distribution as a modified compiled version. The images are neither a source nor a modified compiled version.

If we assume that images are "source", the license states that I must do at least one of three things. One of these three things is "make the Modified Version available to the Copyright Holder of the Standard Version, under the Original License, so that the Copyright Holder may include your modifications in the Standard Version." -- or, allow the simutrans team to use my images. I would gladly do so, even though my modified images wouldn't really work in Simutrans.

That, however, still doesn't solve the problem of "partial copyright".

PS: Attached is how I am going to modify the images. I've done the steel mill so far. It's refactored to 256x256 + Photoshop blending effects.
Title: Re: making 128 open source - what is left to do
Post by: neroden on May 13, 2012, 04:49:45 PM
Presumably, the modifications in and of themselves are my copyright, and the original graphics are the copyright of the Simutrans community, but an image is both the original and the modifications, combined, so it can't be the copyright of more than one party.
Yes, it can be copyright of more than one party.  Legally, it is covered by TWO copyrights.  This situation is based on the law regarding translations of books: the translation is copyright of the translator, and ALSO, SEPARATELY, copyright of the original author.

This phenomenon is what creates "copyright thickets" where it is very hard to get permission to do anything because you have to ask every single person who ever worked on it.  However, the Artistic License deals with that problem, because in order to distribute the modified version, you have to agree to distribute the "Modified Version" under the same terms as the "Standard Version".

Regarding source code: If you apply the rules in the Artistic License exactly, "source code" is Blender files or something similar, and "compiled version" is the PNG files.  If the PNG was drawn directly, or the Blender files are lost, then the PNG is source code.