0.9.0 tram cargo trucks

[whoami]

With 0.9.0 in the year 1880, there are several small and slow goods trucks in the train depot that are labeled "MAY USE: Tramway" (or "Prohibitive 0" if English is not selected). I think they were meant to appear in the tram depots instead, where goods vehicles are completely absent, mail too. There are also tram horses in the railway depot, but they cannot be used/bought in that place.

EDIT: When trying to translate this for Pak128.Britain-Ex, I find that only airplanes exist in Simutranslator for this Pakset. Are the translations from Pak.britain (non-Ex) also used?

[jamespetts]

The tram compatible wagons are actually the very early railway wagons, which are also compatible with tramways. Trams need a little further research: in the very early days (when they were horse drawn and carried only cargo), there was no distinction between the "tram road" and a "rail-way"; the two became distinct concepts only with passenger tramways in towns, initially horse drawn, in the mid 19th century, and these wagons predate that. Do you know of any latter-day tramways that hauled goods and anything about the wagons that they used? Such information would be most useful.

As to Simutranslator, thank you for reminding me that I had not got around to uploading all of the texts for that.

[whoami]

So ... is it intended? I have not yet found a track (in 1882) that allows to build a train depot on it where I can buy the horses that are offered in it. The trucks are useful for the horses only, the steam locomotives are too crippled by their speed limit 10 km/h, and none of them is allowed on tramways. Therefore, it is not possible to build a convoy that is able to move onto tram tracks. Thus, I deduct that these horses and their trucks - in their current state - belong into the tram depot with stables.

Yes, I am aware of quite some parts of the train and tram history, and they are not even completely separate nowadays. (The tram line that runs near my house has a short underpass where it has to move according to train regulations because of the obstructed view, or else it would have to slow down even more.)

Some cargo trams (articles in German): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:G%C3%BCterstra%C3%9Fenbahn (most have pictures)

[jamespetts]

Are you aware of any freight tram operations in the UK in the 1880s or later?

One possibility would be to allow building rail horses much later, but that would involve always having the "railway stables" as an alternative to the steam depot even when the use is marginal. Simply making these trucks into trams would not be a solution, as they are needed for railways in the early part of the game, which is why I am interested in whether there are any historical precedents for freight trams in the UK, which would inform new tram specific vehicles that could be introduced in latter times.

[whoami]

So if the horses stay there, how do I make them work? They are not outdated, they are always shown with a red bar instead of a grey one. Is it a vehicle constraint problem? Depot type constraint? I think so: the road depot for steam tractors shows horses in the same way: red and not selectable.

Information about UK trams: sorry, cannot help with that.

[jamespetts]

What do you mean if they stay there? I am afraid that I do not quite follow.

Edit: I have now had a go at uploading all of the objects to Simutranslator. I suspect that some objects have not made it, as uploading large numbers of objects seems to be unreliable in unpredictable ways, making it difficult to know what to do to make it work or be sure whether it has worked. However, if you want to have a go at translating, do by all means make a start - it would be much appreciated.

[whoami]

What do you mean if they stay there?

Will the horses (and trucks) that are now (referring to 1882) in the train depot stay there, or will they be moved to the tram depot?

[jamespetts]

There are already dedicated tram horses. As for the trucks, if they were to be moved to the tram depot, they would not be usable for early trains, which is their main purpose.; that is why I am interested in whether any latter-day tramways had their own specific goods vehicles to see whether there are any tram-specific goods vehicles to model.

You do realise, though, that you can connect a single tile of railway to a tram line and put a rail depot on that, complete with rail horses and these early wagons?

[whoami]

I had indeed built a train depot on tram tracks, and the horses still could not be bought. That is what I mean. If another depot type is needed, then it is not available, at least not in 1882.
On the other hand, having them in the tram stable would allow to send them onto train tracks.

[MCollett]

Are you aware of any freight tram operations in the UK in the 1880s or later?

The Wantage Tramway was still running (steam-hauled) goods services until 1945, but despite its name, it is probably better thought of not as a tramway but as a light railway that happened to use tram engines for its passenger services (note that the rails were beside the road, not on it).

I think whoami's point is one of consistency rather than historicity.  Currently, the horses and horse-drawn rail wagons are available until 1918, if you have an existing railway stable; but a new stable cannot be built after 1855.  While it is reasonable for the vehicles to be available a little longer than the depot (allowing existing lines to continue operating, but not new ones to be opened), an overhang of 63 years is probably excessive.   If horse-drawn rail freight was not in fact used in late 19th-century Britain, then the retirement date of the horses and wagons should be earlier; if it was, then the retirement date of the depot should be later.

Best wishes,
Matthew

[whoami]

Ok, so it would be sufficient for gameplay to have the train stable for a longer time. But then it would be nice if vehicles would not appear in a depot where they cannot be bought, which is the case for horses in the steam train depot, same for other vehicle types: horses and steam engines for roads appear also in depot types that do not support them.

[jamespetts]

I think that Matthew is right here (and from that description, the Wantage tramway does sound more like a light railway; judging by the photograph, it used normal wagons and ordinary, albeit very small, steam locomotives, not tram locomotives, which, by regulation, had to have their wheels and lower moving parts covered over). We need to know whether: (1) to give the retirement date for the tram compatible wagons the same retirement date as the railway stables; or (2) to change the retirement of the railway stables to a later year to match the wagons. I am inclined to the former, not least because I dimly recollect that the retirement date for railway horses was once 1918 (before the feature of separating depots by traction types was introduced), and the wagons were given a date to match. However, any other views on the point would be welcome (especially in light of the availability of the heavy tramway allowing rail vehicles at low speeds in later years), and especially any research material on goods vehicles on actual tramways.

Whoami - unless there is a bug of which I am not aware, the horses do not appear in the steam depot unless one selects the "show all" button (which is intended to show vehicles which cannot be bought in any event).

[whoami]

You are right: "show all" is necessary to see them. But the other vehicles can be bought there, they are only hidden (without "show all") or shown with a red bar (with "show all") because they just cannot be attached to the current convoy in the current state (i.e., appended or prepended). The horses can never be used. This is only a small thing, but quite confusing if unknown (at least to me).

[jamespetts]

Hmm, that's an interesting conundrum. If they were not visible with "show all", players would not know what other vehicles that they could buy if they had the right type of depot, so, absent any ideas to make the distinction clearer, it is probably better to leave it as it is.

[MCollett]

We need to know whether: (1) to give the retirement date for the tram compatible wagons the same retirement date as the railway stables; or (2) to change the retirement of the railway stables to a later year to match the wagons.

Or (3) split the difference.  Some data points:

• 
  This booklet claims to describe 'the last horse drawn railway in England', opening in 1835 and closing in 1851.
  
• 
  The above-mentioned Wantage Tramway opened in 1875.  Although primarily steam-drawn, in the early years it did make some use of horse-drawn vehicles.  If it is to be counted as a light railway rather than a tramway, railway stables need to be available at this date.
  
• 
  The current retirement date in the game for narrow-gauge stables is 1877.
  
• 
  According to this list of tram dates, the last horse-drawn tram service in Great Britain ended in 1929.
  
• 
  British Rail was still using horses for shunting duties as late as the 1960s.
  

The last entry is fascinating, but largely irrelevant, since SimuTrans doesn't model shunting.  Otherwise, I would suggest delaying the retirement of the standard gauge railway stables to match that of the narrow gauge ones in 1877, and then bringing forward the retirement date of the horses and wagons from 1918 to somewhere in the 1880s.

Conversely, the tram horses that currently also retire in 1918 should perhaps have another decade of availability.

Best wishes,
Matthew

[jamespetts]

That is very helpful - I am minded to adopt these suggestions unless anyone can think of a better idea.