Author Topic: Passenger cars of the 21st century  (Read 22734 times)

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Offline Ters

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Passenger cars of the 21st century
« on: October 05, 2012, 06:14:10 PM »
After the last of several recent change in the game's revenue calculation, I've been looking over all my lines in order to make a profit again. As far as I can see, my medium speed, medium distance passengers trains are the main source of red numbers. These lines are still served by locomotives hauling a mix of passenger and mail cars. This is a bit anachronistic in the early 21st centrury, but the mail container cars can't keep the same speed as passenger trains, and adding a slow track for them seems unrealistic and will require some micromanaging to keep the right train on the right track. I also don't use the double decker car, because I feel they are more suited for shorter routes within metropolitan areas.
 
But putting my perhaps strange preferences aside, there is still the fact that the Empire Alto passenger cars costs 9.70 for 86 passengers, and all locomotives are either expensive or so weak that their cheapness doesn't help. The ICE TD passenger car goes faster (higher bonus), carries more passenger, is cheaper, and requires cheaper "locomotives" that even contributes to the profit by carrying passengers. It is much of the same with the X2000. The double decker carries almost twice the number of passenger, is almost half the cost, yet looses less than half the income due to less speed bonus. All of these I am able to operate with a profit, but not the Empire Alto. I have not yet evaluated the Tigress.
 
Is the Empire Alto too expensive? Does the game lack a low speed, low capacit passenger car for the 21st century? Or is there some tricks or gameplay aspects I'm completely missing here? And I'm not interested in add-ons. I want pak64 to work straight out of the box without having to remember to add various more or less well made add-ons.

Offline greenling

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2012, 06:36:42 PM »
Ters
Please post photos from the Trains how make problems.
Thank you.
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Offline Fifty

Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2012, 08:30:00 PM »
 Ters is right: Pak 64 is rather unbalanced, especially in the later years. Most of this is caused by problems with speedbonus. Passenger transport by rail is almost completely unprofitable after about 2020. The Tigress and Panthress Trains are not properly balanced, and there are no low-speed cars that are very effective. The double-decker is too expensive, and the alto cars are not profitable. In my opinion, the base speed for rails in pak 64 is too high in the modern/future era. A list of some issues:
  • About the only trains that you can use profitably after 2020 for passengers is the BR614 and the ICE-TD. It would be nice to have some more variety here, including some cheap locomotive-hauled cars as well as some electric multiple unit trains.
  • Bulk shipments (including oil) make too much profit. They are more profitable than “high-dollar" freight shipments in the later years. The revenue per unit on most of these goods should drop.
  • Trucks vary considerably in price per km, usually the older trucks are more profitable even in later years
  • Automobiles and paper can always be moved at a profit by truck, while almost never at a profit by rail.
  • The 90 passenger wagon by Hajo is too expensive to run at speeds of 120-135 km/h, especially when compared to the 100 km/h older wagons and the 120 km/h double-deckers. This makes express trains useless until the 1950s.
  • Some vehicles are not useful because of their cost in relation to other vehicles: Swiss federal railways Eb 3/5, JR9600 2-8-0, DB class 218 are some that are not too useful. Other vehicles are too cheap (SD40-2, BR 38 come to mind)
I'm more than willing to help out with doing some rebalancing, reworking the numbers in speedbonus.tab and editing prices in dat files. I just don't know how I can be most helpful to the pakset maintainers and players.
 
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Offline Ters

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2012, 09:37:54 PM »
I'm currently in 2020s, and there are more passenger trains than BR614 and ICE-TD that can be profitable. The X2000 works well, and I successfully operate several NS-1600 with double-decker cars. Maybe there's a difference in the setting for pay_for_total_distance.

As for trucks, that's one place were I cling onto obsolete vehicles. Even if they don't have an advantage over newer vehicles, their capacities (and sometimes acceleration) is better suited for some lines. In many ways, pak64 always moves towards bigger and faster, which isn't always what I need.

Diversity also decreases at the end of the timeline. In the late 2020s there are three diesel locomotives: BR 365, which is too slow to be useful outside dense industrial areas; and DB 218 and BR 234, which are very similar and only useful for freight. The latter also has length issues. All are however quite old, so some diesel contemporary to BR185 would be nice. There's also the two DMUs, one local-ish and one intercity, which work quite well.

With electric trains, there's the BR185 and the NS-1600. The former works mostly well for freight, while the latter is too expensive for goods without significant speed bonus (like mail). Both are too slow for passenger trains, except the NS-1600 with double decker cars (in my experience). There's also the fictional BR103 from 2014, but I can't figure it out either. There's also the questions of whether it should be removed two years from now, unless Hajo managed to predict the future. As for EMUs, it's all intercity expresses. I miss something akin to Stadler FLIRT. (The Pantheress could be replaced by a modern TGV or ICE. For the ICE, one could almost reuse the ICE-TD graphics, though that might be too confusing.)

Offline greenling

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2012, 10:16:59 PM »
Ters & Fifty
I have found vehicles they can solve your problem.
But for these vehicles, a painter who paints me missing me.
We can borrow even vehicles from Pakgerman.

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Offline Ters

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2012, 08:08:48 AM »
I'd like to hear the opinion of the pak64 maintainer before doing anything.

Offline greenling

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2012, 10:02:48 AM »
The thread:"Passenger cars of the 21st century"
must we speak on in Pak064 german to.
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Offline Ters

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2012, 10:36:43 AM »
This thread is on the pak64 board, and I put it here because I'm writing about pak64. pak64.german has its own board under other paksets, and I know nothing about it.

Offline prissi

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2012, 08:50:52 PM »
(offtopic: What is the empire alto? Is thes the H-Trans passenger car? Aparently somebody messed up again all names of the cars. I think I will remove them from simutranslator. They got always changed in a completely random style it seems.)

Ok, on topic. I am very glad that the discussion started. I did not play no big games after the introduction of the new algorithm, so indeed it may have become a little more unbalanced.

And the observation is correct: pak64 goes indeed for faster and larger capacity, as this is usually required for pax with a growing network. For freight this stemmed from times where the price of a vehicle was important for bankrupsy, since the larger one were relatively cheaper to have the same entry level for entry in the 1980ies. Thus for road freight there may be indeed not so much incentive for larger ones now.

After 1980 the pak64 was not playtested for starting, and after 2020 the pak64 is indeed not evolving. The dominace of multiple units is just taken from reality. There are no high speed trains which are not MU any more.

If you look at cars.xls you will indeed see that the Grossraumwagen at 180 and tiger car at 240km/h will make slight losses at the end of the timeline (v_retire resp the indices with 2). At 200km/h the Grossraumwage (maybe the Alto) will make 0.6 per tile. The double decker at 160km/h should be still make good money (6ct per tile). The balancing was done using the premise that the vehicles should give the same income per passenger when they were introduced of about 0.2 cr/tile pas. Making those less profitable in later years was my way of reducing the amounts of money you get and people always complained. It has the downside that certain years makes starting a game more difficult due to gaps in introduction of new vehicles.

If there is demand for passenger trains of seperate cars, I feel like adding another car to the collection. BUt it might need also a matching engine then? Anyway after 2010 nearly nothing has been done. That was very much too far in the future in 2007, when the last major overhaul has been done, and contribution is certainly welcomed.

With the new speedbonus code, maybe also the formular used in the excel spreadsheet (cars.xls) needs an update. If memory served me right, we actually used half of the speedbonus speed to compare it with the actual speed. That would certainly change some number very much.

Oil is made a good source of income to allow people start up games. pak128 uses coal for that. Anyway I would prefer to keep freight tariffs mostly the same. Those are calculated that ships and planes are barely profitable. But I conceed, that with online games the argument to look at chains as a whole cannot hold any more. Here some more equal incomes seems indeed required.

On the other hand the income of passengers and mail I would not touch. Moreover, the speed bonus of passengers and mail is really needed to reduce the ridiculus incomes you would otherwise get in later years by just running the game further on. I would rather prefer to change the running costs of vehciles. I would still aim for an income for the year a vehciles is introduced of 0.2 cr/tile pax. This had been a good value in the past as compromise between scaring new people away because of too much challenge and too much income too fast. pak64 is, after all, still the most basic pak on and open source distribution (pak128 has caught up in that regard).

Offline Ters

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2012, 10:14:25 PM »
I agree that trains should get bigger and faster, and progress away from locomotive hauled trains. Yet there are still passenger lines in 2012 that are operated by locomotives at speeds below 200 km/h. I don't know if that's more common in Scandinavia than elsewhere, but I think I've seen recent photos of locomotive hauled passenger train from continental Europe too. In general, I've got the impression that locomotives are used on rural lines, and that's what I'm also trying to use them for in Simutrans. Neither in the real world or my Simutrans games do these lines have the standard required for high speed EMUs. The 614 would fit, but that's about it. A what if the line is actually electrified?

For passenger and mail, I would like some alternatives to the 614 on lesser lines that don't have big metropolises at either end. It doesn't have to include mail cars in style with the passengers cars. As long as the passenger trains aren't made for 200+ km/h, I can easily include a BR185 or BR218 with mail containers without having them end up with a queue behind them. A bigger capacity mail truck meant for intercity use could perhaps be a more realistic way of moving mail between villages and small towns, but I have a thing for trains.

(And I don't like some of the "new" English names vehicles in pak64 got a while back, either. I did consider looking up the internal names from the dat-files, but in the end I simply didn't.)

Offline greenling

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2012, 11:13:33 PM »
Good Day Ters,Prissi,,Fifty
The vehicle with the Name Br614 gives here in Germany not more all those Vehicle go until 2010 out of order.
In Poland and Romanian have those Trains now find an new Job.
The Intercitytrains in Europe drive not faster as 200km/h.The railjet out Austria can reach 230km/h.
In the year 2013 exchange the DBAG The Intercitytrains they are drive from Leipzig to Norddeich Mole and
The Intercitytrain from Norddeich mole to Koblenz.From single level to Double-deck wagons and the Engines
how move the train it a Br146 in Intercitycolor.In Frankfurt and kempten it the Time from The Br218 in
December 2013 over.The Engine how exchange the Br218 its vehicle they have 4 Motors.
In Stuttgart Ends in December 2013 the Service of the Br420/421a exchange to engines with Name Br430/431
In Nürnberg have beginning to Operate the Vehicle from Typ Br440.Photo reach cam soon.
Edit1:That all what i here report have thue.
Edit2: it gives more exchange those all to report be blow up my replys.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 11:40:46 PM by greenling »
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Offline TurfIt

Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2012, 12:36:09 AM »
Consists with the H-Trans-Tiger-Car are way out of whack. Always lose money, mainly due to the engines available. I suggest:

H-Trans-Tiger-Car - cost=1300->1000
H-Trans-Panthress-* - cost=7448->2700, capacity=48
2Ellok - cost=8406->3200, capacity=48
H-Trans-Tigress-II-* 0 cost=10126->5800, capacity=48

Which slots these late game trains in with the late game ships and aircraft. Adding engine capacity is needed to prevent even lower prices. It's also a very tight fit, might be better to greatly flatten the slope of the speed bonus curve post 2007.

Also, the BR614 in a 2 tile consist of Br614front-Br614car-Br614car-Br614back has insufficient power to attain its 140 speed. Power 745->900, or gear 64->77 will do. Assuming this is a normal setup.

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2012, 12:39:52 AM »
Turfit
Quote
Also, the BR614 in a 2 tile consist of Br614front-Br614car-Br614car-Br614back has insufficient power to attain its 140 speed. Power 745->900, or gear 64->77 will do. Assuming this is a normal setup.
Br614 not more in Service they are Exchange throw Br640,Br641.Br642,Br643,Br644.
That have Railroadmagazins confirms.
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Offline Fifty

Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2012, 01:08:03 AM »
Prissi, thank you for your detailed response. Could you upload the balancing spreadsheet that you talked about?

I'd be tempted to greatly flatten the speedbonus curve post 2007.

This is what I meant by editing speedbonus.tab, perhaps I was not clear. In 1970, the speedbonus base speed is far too low: 100 km/h when I would equip almost all local trains to run at 120 km/h. by 2020, the speedbonus jumps to 180 km/h, and 8 years later jumps again for no apparent reason to 231 km/h. I would suggest raising the 1970 number to 120 km/h and then gently rising to a max of about 160-175 km/h in the 2020s.

A flatter speedbonus curve would have a lot of advantages. First, it would make it so that high speed locomotives would not cost less to run than slow freight locomotives. Pak 128 has this problem: high speed locomotives are always the best no matter the speed. Flatter speed curves will allow pax locomotives to have higher running costs. Second, a flat speed curve will prevent older rolling stock from immediately needing to be replaced. Third, a flatter speed curve will allow freight with higher speedbonuses to still provide high revenue in the future era. All of this can be achieved with proper balancing while still decreasing per-pax revenue later in the game. It will take some changing of prices across the board, but I am willing to help however I can...

(offtopic: What is the empire alto? Is thes the H-Trans passenger car? Aparently somebody messed up again all names of the cars. I think I will remove them from simutranslator. They got always changed in a completely random style it seems.)

Empire alto = Grossraumwagen
H-trans Passenger car = Passagierwagen
Sing Co Pax Car = PrPersonenwagen

Oil is made a good source of income to allow people start up games. pak128 uses coal for that. Anyway I would prefer to keep freight tariffs mostly the same. Those are calculated that ships and planes are barely profitable. But I conceed, that with online games the argument to look at chains as a whole cannot hold any more. Here some more equal incomes seems indeed required.

Even for a beginner good, oil makes too much money. The payment could be dropped 10-20% and it would still be very profitable. The issue with bulk goods is that there are many different prices. For stone and sand you only get paid 0.50 per ton-km, while for coal you get 0.70. In pak 128, almost all bulk goods have the same price, and coal is not very profitable (you can't make millions on a single train like oil in pak 64). I would suggest lowering all bulk goods to 0.50 per tom-km, as that still provides plenty of profit. In real life a ton of coal does not cost any more to haul than a ton of stone.

In netgames the concrete chain is perpetually unserved. Raising revenue on AAC to at least cover costs might help.

An open ended wish list if you want to fill some holes, it might be nice to have these things in pak 64:
  • A modern diesel freight locomotive. The American GE ES44AC is not a bad choice. I don't know if Packer's material may have one of these that can be used with only a little tweaking.
  • Some electric multiple units for low and middle speed.
  • New modern passenger cars and maybe a locomotive for mid-speed operations
  • Modern container railcar (not for cargosprinter)
  • A modern cargo plane
  • Modern truck semitrailers for paper, steel, and mail.
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Offline greenling

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2012, 01:16:59 AM »
Fifty
A Engine out the Usa for Pak64 as Frightengine?
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Offline TurfIt

Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2012, 01:27:59 AM »
Could you upload the balancing spreadsheet that you talked about?
It's with the pak64 source in vehicle/

Offline Ters

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2012, 08:12:52 AM »
I don't think it's right to set the same price for all bulk goods. That coal is more profitable than sand and stone makes sense to me. I didn't even know sand trains existed until one suddenly started running from my home town a few years back, and I think it was only worth setting up because it returns to the quarry with finished goods.

That some parts of a chain is unprofitable adds a nice challenge to the game in my opinion, but it should be equally unprofitable no matter how you transport it unless there is a very good reason for it. AAC is barely unprofitable no matter what, so I'm not too bothered by that. However paper has a serious problem with both price and capacity in my opinion, at least when compared to most other goods. It might be more right to lower production and consumption than increase capacity, though.

I'm a bit sceptical to greenling's idea(?) of making the 614 obsolete just yet. I've seen big railroad companies retire old rolling stock, only for some of it to return to duty in smaller companies and abroad. Simutrans shouldn't obsolete the type until they are all scrapped, put in museums, or only doing work on heritage lines. A modern alternative like the one suggested is welcome, but not on top of my wish list. A wish list quite similar to Fifty's.

  • A modern diesel freight locomotive. The American GE ES44AC is not a bad choice. I don't know if Packer's material may have one of these that can be used with only a little tweaking.
  • Some electric multiple units for low and middle speed.
  • New modern passenger cars and maybe a locomotive for mid-speed operations
  • Modern container railcar (not for cargosprinter)
  • A modern cargo plane
  • Modern truck semitrailers for paper, steel, and mail.
The American locomotive is a good idea. It prevents European bias in pak64 from growing.

Offline greenling

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2012, 09:43:43 AM »
I Have some photo from the Vehicles they in europe now beginn her job
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Talent_2 in german
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/zug-um-zug-erfolgreich-42-stueck-des-neuen-modells-talent-2-hat-bombardier-an-die-deutsche-bahn-ag/1100798.html in german
http://bahnspass.wordpress.com/2012/02/17/testbetrieb-des-ersten-kiss-fur-die-odeg/ in german
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40826712@N00/7566830330/ in german
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/WESTbahn in german
http://www.bahnonline.ch/wp/26133/cfl-doppelstock-triebzuege-stadler.htm in German
http://www.bahnseite.de/rs102.htm in german
http://www.lokomotive-online.de/Eingang/Triebwagen/BR640/br640.html in german
http://fahrzeuge.obs-info.de/html/br_641_0.html in german
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Desiro_Classic in german
http://www.bahnbilder.de/name/einzelbild/number/117936/kategorie/deutschland~triebzuege~br-643-talent-db.html in german
http://bahn007.startbilder.de/name/einzelbild/number/97190/kategorie/deutschland~triebzuege~br-643-talent.html in german
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Talent in german
http://www.bahnbilder.de/name/einzelbild/number/440748/kategorie/deutschland~triebzuege~br-646-stadler-gtw-db.html in german
http://www.bahnbilder.de/name/zeitachse/jahr/2007/monat/juli/seite/14.html in german
http://bahn-im-bild.startbilder.de/name/einzelbild/number/46870/kategorie/deutschland~dieselloks-br-246-private~246-002-0.html in german
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_ER20 in german
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vossloh_G_2000_BB in german
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_Flirt in german
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_JT42CWR in german + Class 77
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Velaro in German
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_407 in German
http://www.hochgeschwindigkeitszuege.com/frankreich/tgv-duplex.php in german
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_TGV_POS
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 11:49:32 AM by greenling »
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Offline Ters

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2012, 11:55:15 AM »
An interesting thing on the English Wikipedia page for the Talent is that it's called a "suburban motor coach", yet one of the photos show a Talent in the middle of nowhere in Norway.

I also get an impression that most short distance multiple unit trains in Europe are diesel powered. Is that right?

Offline kierongreen

Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2012, 05:10:19 PM »
Quote
I also get an impression that most short distance multiple unit trains in Europe are diesel powered. Is that right?
Most of the modern multiple units families are available in diesel and electric versions, and in principle there is no difference in how long each can be. In Britain most EMUs are 3 or 4 carriages long, with a few 2 or 5 carriage classes. These are often coupled together to form trains of up to 12 carriages. DMUs however are mostly 2 or 3 carriages long, although can range from 1 to 7 carriages, and in service are coupled together to form trains of up to 10 carriages.

The reason EMUs tend to be longer, both individual units and when coupled together, is that they are used lines with more traffic. Low traffic lines do not justify being electrified, therefore use DMUs

Offline Fifty

Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2012, 05:28:22 PM »
It's with the pak64 source in vehicle/

Ah, thank you. I found it, now I must try and understand it :) Actually I understand most of the calculations, just some of the numbers that have no calculations I do not...

I don't think it's right to set the same price for all bulk goods. That coal is more profitable than sand and stone makes sense to me. I didn't even know sand trains existed until one suddenly started running from my home town a few years back, and I think it was only worth setting up because it returns to the quarry with finished goods.

That some parts of a chain is unprofitable adds a nice challenge to the game in my opinion, but it should be equally unprofitable no matter how you transport it unless there is a very good reason for it. AAC is barely unprofitable no matter what, so I'm not too bothered by that. However paper has a serious problem with both price and capacity in my opinion, at least when compared to most other goods. It might be more right to lower production and consumption than increase capacity, though.

The reason IRL that stone and sand are not shipped long-distances is that they are cheaper per ton than ore and coal, and are usually easily sourced locally. Thus it makes little sense to move them long distances, and short distance transports are usually by truck. That said, the cost of moving them per km should be the same (and in some cases IRL is even more because they are moved in smaller quantities and require more shunting work). Many shortlines in the US survive on concrete & aggregate plant traffic.

The problem with an end-product making a loss like AAC is that some money-hungry players will just "dump" the end product instead of bringing it to end consumers in netgames. I've even seen it done with profitable chemicals because the oil revenue is by far the biggest revenue source.

Proportionally to the size of the paper truck and the steel truck and railcar, the paper rail car should have almost double the paper capacity.
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Offline Ters

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2012, 05:53:47 PM »
The problem with an end-product making a loss like AAC is that some money-hungry players will just "dump" the end product instead of bringing it to end consumers in netgames. I've even seen it done with profitable chemicals because the oil revenue is by far the biggest revenue source.
How do you dump the end product? The whole chain needs to be served in network games too, don't they? If not, I'd blame that.

Proportionally to the size of the paper truck and the steel truck and railcar, the paper rail car should have almost double the paper capacity.
Paper rolls are quite large and heavy. A steel car can carry 32 t of steel. A paper car carries 20 t of paper. However, steel has a much higher density than paper, so the fact that there is less paper than steel on a car might be due to volume. There simply might not be room for more than 8 rolls. (Given some of the rolls I've seen, even 8 in a single rail car seems like a tight fit.)

Offline prissi

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2012, 06:08:36 PM »
The XLS is in the sourceforge archive for pak64: http://simutrans.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/simutrans/pak64/vehicle/cars.xls
For the calculation of running cost, the maximum ability of cars to attach is considered. (The 614 usually gaos as double or triple units, almost never in realy live as units of four.)

Second: The speedbonus does not jump. Between those points linear interpolations is used. Thus in 1985 you will have about 120km/h for rail. The curve was done in such a way that it approximated the mean speed of the available engines (that was how the speed bonus speed was calculated before this file or when it does not exist.)

With the tigress at 450 km/h you need really a high speedbouns or you would get really excess income. If you make the speedbonus less, than your destroy the distiction between freight and high speed engines. Look at pak46.german. There is always a best engine, not matter how old or what consists.

A high speedbonus allows for passenger engines to have very high running cost. You cannot run freight profitable by a Br1034. And that is fully intended. (Look at the second tab of the spreadsheet. Some engines are not balanced using the passenger cars but slower cars.) How would make lower the running cost of high speed (which requires high power) make them more distinct?

About pak128 coal: You can make lots of money with three coal trains supplying one pwoer station. More (in relation) than in pak64. But making oil less profitable is ok with me (since you will have to transport large amounts anyway).

About the middle speed units: You could use trams instead. Most light rails use them. I could also offer some japanese EMU, I have them for 135 km/h in player colors.

Container cars are on my eternal todo list. Vilvoh did some, but the had soo many stray pixels and no player colors. I had prepared some other too, but was not too satisfied. Still speed would be like 140 km/h I think.

Cargo by plain is a nightmare. Some (medicine) has a speedbonus, while others do not. Either the plane can only transport these goods profitable (and people will complain, even if it is realistic). There should be also a trailer for steel in the pak. A mail trailer I have available. The freight of steel and paper are taken from reality. 32t is already really the upper limit, in reality such heavy truck are forbidden almost everywhere. 20t of paper is really a lot.

There are different challenges with freight. Once Gotthardlok did an (abstract) freight pak (all factories coloerd squared) that used really high production. There the challenge was not the money but to supply everything with the sheer amounts needed. (Some might say like pak128 iron chain ... ) It was challenging, but was not too popular then.

EDIT: some container cars. First length 8, would go best with the mail container. Second length 12, based on vilvoh and strongly edited afterwards. Steel trailer in player colors (but too long) is in pak64.german. Can be edited. With slight recoloring it may serve also for paper then. Mail trailer (also too long) is there too. As EMU I could offer the E233, with very high capacity but only 120 top speed. Intro would be 2007.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 06:47:38 PM by prissi »

Offline greenling

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2012, 07:08:34 PM »
(The 614 usually gaos as double or triple units, almost never in realy live as units of four.)
That what you here be said have it some thing wrong.
I have be dig out some old Photos.

Second: The speedbonus does not jump. Between those points linear interpolations is used. Thus in 1985 you will have about 120km/h for rail. The curve was done in such a way that it approximated the mean speed of the available engines (that was how the speed bonus speed was calculated before this file or when it does not exist.)

With the tigress at 450 km/h you need really a high speedbouns or you would get really excess income. If you make the speedbonus less, than your destroy the distiction between freight and high speed engines. Look at pak46.german. There is always a best engine, not matter how old or what consists.

A high speedbonus allows for passenger engines to have very high running cost. You cannot run freight profitable by a Br1034. And that is fully intended. (Look at the second tab of the spreadsheet. Some engines are not balanced using the passenger cars but slower cars.) How would make lower the running cost of high speed (which requires high power) make them more distinct?

About pak128 coal: You can make lots of money with three coal trains supplying one pwoer station. More (in relation) than in pak64. But making oil less profitable is ok with me (since you will have to transport large amounts anyway).

About the middle speed units: You could use trams instead. Most light rails use them. I could also offer some japanese EMU, I have them for 135 km/h in player colors.

Container cars are on my eternal todo list. Vilvoh did some, but the had soo many stray pixels and no player colors. I had prepared some other too, but was not too satisfied. Still speed would be like 140 km/h I think.

Cargo by plain is a nightmare. Some (medicine) has a speedbonus, while others do not. Either the plane can only transport these goods profitable (and people will complain, even if it is realistic). There should be also a trailer for steel in the pak. A mail trailer I have available. The freight of steel and paper are taken from reality. 32t is already really the upper limit, in reality such heavy truck are forbidden almost everywhere. 20t of paper is really a lot.

There are different challenges with freight. Once Gotthardlok did an (abstract) freight pak (all factories coloerd squared) that used really high production. There the challenge was not the money but to supply everything with the sheer amounts needed. (Some might say like pak128 iron chain ... ) It was challenging, but was not too popular then.

EDIT: some container cars. First length 8, would go best with the mail container. Second length 12, based on vilvoh and strongly edited afterwards. Steel trailer in player colors (but too long) is in pak64.german. Can be edited. With slight recoloring it may serve also for paper then. Mail trailer (also too long) is there too. As EMU I could offer the E233, with very high capacity but only 120 top speed. Intro would be 2007.
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Offline prissi

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2012, 07:33:14 PM »
The Br614 was constructed as three units. The BD tried to drive them also a four units. But it was no success as their engine were too weak for it. Exactly like simutrans I would say ...

Offline TurfIt

Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2012, 07:39:43 PM »
Sounds good then.  8)

For the tiger cars - can you actually make a profit with these? No matter how I work the numbers, it's negative...

Offline Fifty

Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2012, 07:43:45 PM »
How do you dump the end product? The whole chain needs to be served in network games too, don't they? If not, I'd blame that.

Set up a transfer station near the plant, put a truck from plant to transfer station, then put a truck from transfer station to end consumer, but make it wait for 100% load at the consumer so it never leaves.

With the tigress at 450 km/h you need really a high speedbouns or you would get really excess income. If you make the speedbonus less, than your destroy the distiction between freight and high speed engines. Look at pak46.german. There is always a best engine, not matter how old or what consists.

A high speedbonus allows for passenger engines to have very high running cost. You cannot run freight profitable by a Br1034. And that is fully intended. (Look at the second tab of the spreadsheet. Some engines are not balanced using the passenger cars but slower cars.) How would make lower the running cost of high speed (which requires high power) make them more distinct?

Are you taking about speedbonus speed or speedbonus percent? Percentage is fine, it's the base speed that I think needs to be lowered. A high base speed actually requires that passenger vehicles get cheaper and cheaper for a given speed while freight vehicles can keep a relatively constant price.

The Tigress and Panthress are very much overpriced right now. There are only 2 ways to make them profitable, increase revenue or decrease running costs, so lowering the speedbonus base speed would increase revenue. I don't see why excess income from high speed trains cannot be compensated with high running costs.

The BR 103 is just as profitable on freight as a pair of BR 140s. Passenger locomotives become more lucrative than freight locomotives as speedbonus increases. If you implement TurfIt's suggested price for the Panthress locomotives, they will be less than one-third the cost of similar freight power. I have seen Panthress locomotives used profitably in freight service too. The way to fix this problem, in my opinion is to let the cost of passenger cars (wagons) drop over time, while keeping locomotives and freight cars (wagons) fairly expensive.

In terms of paper and steel cars, I am talking about rail cars (wagons) not trucks, sorry if there is some confusion. It just seems like the paper cars are smaller and lighter than they could be, but I agree it is not perfect to increase the capacity of those ether as paper rolls are so heavy. I like the containers that are primary player color so that they are not confused with the secondary player color mail containers.
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Offline greenling

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2012, 08:26:34 PM »
Prissi
The Br614 was constructed as three units. The BD tried to drive them also a four units. But it was no success as their engine were too weak for it. Exactly like simutrans I would say ...
No it have gove longtime use from Br614 with 2 Br914.
That have i haer from a old worker the have be work by the Deutsche Bundesbahn.
I have here some more photos from Br614.
https://sites.google.com/site/000002expend/DB%20BR614%20mit%20zwei%20Mittelwagen%20ohne%20G%C3%BCterwagen.png?attredirects=0
Out the Year 1982 a Br614 with 2 Br914.

https://sites.google.com/site/000002expend/DB%20BR614%20In%20Ozeanblau-beige.png?attredirects=0
Those color Be goves in the year 1982 too.

https://sites.google.com/site/000002expend/614022-135-01.jpg?attredirects=0
Here a Br614 with 2 Br934 those Consistes was very rare in the Year 1982.

 https://sites.google.com/site/000002expend/DB%20-%20DMU%20train%20at%20Bad%20Canstatt%205_19_84Edited.png?attredirects=0
 Here a constistes out the year 1984.
 
https://sites.google.com/site/000002expend/DB%20BR614%20Zugreihung.png?attredirects=0
Here view the Possible constistes for the Br614 they was until 31.12.1989 in use.

https://sites.google.com/site/000002expend/800px-614_071-9_1998-10-11_14-05_Neuhaus%2C_SE_5624_NNP_-_NN.jpg?attredirects=0
Those color was in the year 1995 until 2000 in use.
And the constis was from the year 1990 until 2010 in use.

https://sites.google.com/site/000002expend/800px-614_in_Hersbruck.jpg?attredirects=0
Here a Photo out the year 2008.

And here it the Page from the br614:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_614
Photo from the Br614 out easteuropa coming sone.

I Have here a work aroundet Br614.
Please test it.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 08:34:34 PM by greenling »
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Offline prissi

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2012, 08:32:20 PM »
The panthress /Tigress should be profitable with 5 or 6 cars. (2020 resp. 1520 per train/tile fully loaded.) And that just with 48 passengers needed per cars for completely filled train. The Br103 in 1970 also got 1600 but you needed 9 cars with each 86 passengers for that.

But it makes a slight loss of 3000 instead. Aparently the formula from the XLS is no longer correct. That would affect all the balancing of course.

The raw power needed to achieve high speeds make any passenger engine seemingly suitable for freight. Only very high running cost could prevent this. For 103 for which freight it works? This rather indicates that 103 running costs need to be even higher. (It could be easily doubled for passenger service without reducing income of the train much, as the engines runnign cost is only 5% of the total maximum income per tile for now. (Tab T in the second sheet) Maybe for dedicated passenger engines the running costs should be 10% instead. And maybe rather some freight engines need to be cheaper to run.



EDIT: The BR614 was run with four cars unit. But it showed soon, that those are too weak and they used from the lat 80ies only three car units. Just consult wikipedia, which gives a similar story as simutrans.

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2012, 08:44:56 PM »
Prissi
Quote
The BR614 was run with four cars unit. But it showed soon, that those are too weak and they used from the lat 80ies only three car units. Just consult wikipedia, which gives a similar story as simutrans.
Wikipedia it in those point not exactly.
I gives that back what the People be know.
Edit : Prissi by the Vehicles in pakgerman beginnn the overolding,they need a work around.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 08:57:29 PM by greenling »
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Offline prissi

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2012, 09:16:37 PM »
Read for instace here: http://www.nahverkehr-franken.de/rbahn/614.html Very few units from 1985 to 1994 before they gave up with that.

Here is a four unit from 1988. The poor engine is really maxed out on the slope and crawls up with about 50 km/h: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs7uczY3V-0&feature=related




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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2012, 06:49:53 PM »
I noticed a commit mentioning mail, paper and iron semi-trailers, but "only" the mail trailer has been defined. Is there some work to be done on that part, or is it a "forgot to submit file" thing?

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Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2012, 10:46:24 PM »
They need to get numbers. However, since everything is not correct any more (or my formula is wrong) I can only introduce them like now. That is quickly done though. I also added the E233 as modern EMU.

I just have not had any comments on which container cars.

Offline sdog

Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2012, 11:56:25 PM »
Set up a transfer station near the plant, put a truck from plant to transfer station, then put a truck from transfer station to end consumer, but make it wait for 100% load at the consumer so it never leaves.
That can be quite a nuisance, since it is a blatant cheat. Perhaps some extension request topic in itself?
(perhaps changing the "no routing over full stops" could be made freight/pax specific. Since for pax the game becomes hardly playable with this.)

Offline Fifty

Re: Passenger cars of the 21st century
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2012, 12:05:19 AM »
Thank you prissi for the new truck trailers & EMU. I cannot see them yet as the nightly was not built...

I like both the green and the blue and white container cars (for trains). Assuming the Blue is player color, it might be nice to have blue and white.

I spent some time tweaking the balancing spreadsheet: I was able to devise a new formula using effective kwh that gave higher speed trains more sensible running costs with lowered speedbonus base speed, but ran into problems with low-speed locomotives being too expensive.
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