Author Topic: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object  (Read 2840 times)

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Offline Sarlock

Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« on: February 25, 2013, 05:14:44 PM »
You knew this one was coming  ;D

Tool to select and place ground_object.  It would be similar to the tree selection/placement public player menu tool I imagine.

This would allow for different types of customized terrain that wouldn't be possible using the randomizer on initial map startup.  You could create beaches, cliffs and all sorts of other fun things with this tool.

Also: Ability to place ground_object on to open water.  This would need a new "climate" type (ocean?) as it wouldn't be "water" because this is constrained to the coastline only.  This would allow for putting rushes on the sides of lakes, ducks in a pond, cliffs, extending beaches out into the water (boats could still drive through it but that doesn't matter).  Placement of "ocean" type objects would probably be manual only otherwise the ocean would be randomly filled with these types on map generation.  That can be controlled by the pakset setting "distribution=0" for these ocean items.  Edit: I'm not sure how the moving water animation below would complicate this addition.

These options would help attract a lot of sandbox type players.


Some background info:

In creating a bunch of ground_objects for slopes, grounds, etc, it is completely changing how Simutrans looks.  It looks amazing!  But one limitation I have is that because there is 100% coverage on the ground, everything has to match up to one another because you never know which ground_object will be placed beside another one for that climate type (what may look good under a forest looks horrible in an open field).  The ability to pick custom ground_object types that have a 0% distribution change on a random basis would allow for personal customization of areas of the map for aesthetic purposes.  Example: You can create a fantastic looking cliff on the edge of the water but it would never match up to a regular slope on either side of it.  Creating a set of 3 cliff ground_object tiles, however, allows you to create two side pieces that bridge the differential between the regular slope and the cliff angle and then the cliff tiles fill in the middle.  You can place these manually and make for an incredible looking seaside cliff but the random generator would never know how to properly put these together (and nor should it).
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 05:27:01 PM by Sarlock »
Current projects: Pak128 Trees, blender graphics

Offline greenling

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Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2013, 08:58:32 PM »
Sarlock
that it heavy idea.
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Offline prissi

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Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2013, 09:41:44 PM »
You should be able to place monvingobj on the ocean. I think there was a sailingship once.

But I think for you purpose of a cliff a groundobj with climate=water and 16 orientations should show the right slope for water.

I think when kiereons double height water everywhere code is incorporate, one should tackle this, just be patient.

Offline isidoro

Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2013, 10:35:34 PM »
@Sarlock: more ideas: whales, dolphins, Lake Ness' monsters...

Offline IgorEliezer

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Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2013, 10:53:43 PM »
You knew this one was coming  ;D
It's unavoidable. Simutrans has lots of potential.

It's like a classical painting. The canvas is what matters, but it would look strange without a good frame. Simutrans is about transportation, however a lot of players like to "frame" their networks with a nice landscape design.

These options would help attract a lot of sandbox type players.
Like me...

In creating a bunch of ground_objects for slopes, grounds, etc, it is completely changing how Simutrans looks.  It looks amazing!
Screenshots or it did not happen! ;)

Offline Sarlock

Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2013, 12:07:42 AM »
Quote
Screenshots or it did not happen! ;)

Haha!  It's my little secret for the next 4 weeks until I get more drawn ;)
Current projects: Pak128 Trees, blender graphics

Offline An_dz

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Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2013, 12:54:18 AM »
You should be able to place monvingobj on the ocean. I think there was a sailingship once.
Yeah, pak96.comic has one.

Offline Sarlock

Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2013, 02:25:58 AM »
But I think for you purpose of a cliff a groundobj with climate=water and 16 orientations should show the right slope for water.

Yes, that works and looks quite nice... but they all have to be cliffs over the whole map otherwise they don't match up with any non-cliff slope pieces.  ie: you have to pick either cliffs or beaches for the water on your map, you can't have both because they don't match up.  Having a placement tool would allow you to select and add custom landscape features.

Quote
I think when kiereons double height water everywhere code is incorporate, one should tackle this, just be patient

Means more drawing for the different heights :)
Current projects: Pak128 Trees, blender graphics

Offline Yona-TYT

Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2013, 03:49:56 AM »

I think the "moving object" they give to "simutrans" a wild look and more realistic


To me this is a good idea ;)

Offline Ters

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Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2013, 05:28:13 AM »
I think the "moving object" they give to "simutrans" a wild look and more realistic


To me this is a good idea ;)

As long as they don't get stuck in the woods like simusheep tend to do.

Offline wlindley

Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2013, 07:36:29 AM »
The simusheep in the woods had better beware if we ever introduce simuwolves.  But all seriousness aside, the beach/cliff problem sounds like the problem in pak128.Britain where row-houses ought to attract (tend to be built next to) each other, as should high-street shops, while other buildings and industries should tend to repel each other.  Perhaps some sort of generalized attract/repel list? Hmm.

Offline Leartin

Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2016, 10:09:03 PM »
Thread Necromancy!

But I think for you purpose of a cliff a groundobj with climate=water and 16 orientations should show the right slope for water.
I think when kiereons double height water everywhere code is incorporate, one should tackle this, just be patient.
I fail to produce any results with 16 or even 65 orientations, there are never groundobjects on slopes, neither water nor on land. I assume something changed due to double heights.
Is it possible to (re)enable groundobjects for slopes?

Offline kierongreen

Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2016, 09:09:01 AM »
Cliffs designed around water would potentially require not just 65 tiles but also ones taking into account different water positions and start and ends.

Possibly a better way would be to have bottom and top edges for each climate for existing cliff images? Though even this would mean 2x5x50x65 additional images (although I reckon 20 blending maps could reduce this down to 2x5x7x2+2=142 images to draw). Would need some logic in there about bottom of cliffs as at moment these are all straight and landscape tile in front is just drawn over the cliff behind. You'd be unlikely to be able to see the transitions in 64 paksets but might be able to make interesting effects in 128 or higher. Not sure it would be enough difference to make change worthwhile though, and would only work for straight cliffs, the 90 degree corners would look bad still probably...

Offline Leartin

Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2016, 12:44:23 PM »
Possibly a better way would be to have bottom and top edges for each climate for existing cliff images? Though even this would mean 2x5x50x65 additional images (although I reckon 20 blending maps could reduce this down to 2x5x7x2+2=142 images to draw). Would need some logic in there about bottom of cliffs as at moment these are all straight and landscape tile in front is just drawn over the cliff behind. You'd be unlikely to be able to see the transitions in 64 paksets but might be able to make interesting effects in 128 or higher. Not sure it would be enough difference to make change worthwhile though, and would only work for straight cliffs, the 90 degree corners would look bad still probably...

Instead of replacing the cliff image, I think it would be better to have two additional images in front of the cliff, one at the top and one at the bottom. Thus, you would be able to show the ground the cliff ends on, and possibly a bit of grass hanging over at the top if suitable. And of course, you could use that for fences on the front of the upper tile.

But I don't think that's in question here. If moving away from ground objects, the thing to look at would be the ground itself.
The ground gets generated by the game, based on the light map, the climate textures, and the blending pattern; and there is only that one ground. Ground objects are essentially a workaround for the lack of variety, I think in most games, there are actually several ground textures instead - Eg. Caesar 3.
I once tried to change the lightmaps to gain more structure in the ground, and it works pretty well. The lightmap does not actually need to be flat, you could even creat cliffs right there - except that it will be textured with the climate texture, and it looks very silly if you build a road on it.
If blending and generating graphics within the program are part of the process, I think it should not be a groundobject, but an advancement on the ground generation itself, allowing multiple different graphics for the same slope to be used, mixing actual graphics of rocks, flowers and mushrooms with the generated slopes from lightmaps, and so on. This would make sure that there is a bit of variation even if you just raised or lowered a bunch of land.

Cliffs designed around water would potentially require not just 65 tiles but also ones taking into account different water positions and start and ends.
By the way, for me it was more about ground variation than an actual cliff project. I worked with ground objects a bit and I think it looks really nice if you have just small variations in each tile, setting there appearence so they appear on every tile. But if you do it, slopes look boring. Maybe having an object that behaves like a tree instead (but does not use up tree slots or grow in forests) would be an easier alternative?

Offline kierongreen

Re: Placing ground_objects, "ocean" terrain type ground_object
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2016, 01:32:33 PM »
Having multiple textures for tiles is certainly possible. As would having multiple transition textures and multiple lightmaps to add variety. Of course all would have to tessellate, but other than that only limit really is memory consumption.