Author Topic: Pak.Sweden....!  (Read 50842 times)

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Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2013, 10:23:36 PM »
Hur går det? :)

Om du skulle ha missat detta så är Blender 2.69 ute nu :)
- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2013, 09:01:19 PM »
Jodå, jag fick animeringen att funka, och jag lyckades även animera kameran på min vagn. kollade noga igenom alla noder som du hade gjort, och gjorde några jag med, så nu har jag automatiskt rätt bakgrund och jag la även till en specialfärg på fönstren. Har inte testat i simutrans än, har haft en hel del annat att göra sista veckorna!

kan lägga upp blendfilen på dropbox så kan du kika vad jag gjort och kommentera den :)

har inte laddat ned nyaste blender än.. :P

Offline Václav

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Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2013, 11:12:44 AM »
[SE]
Jag hoppas att Google Translator inte kommer att göra många misstag.

Mycket intressant. Mestadels tåg X2000 är mycket trevligt.

Bara jag skulle vilja fråga vilken storlek använder du? Tåg X2000 ser ut som det tillhör Pak128, men jag är inte säker.


[EN]
I hope that Google Translator will not do many mistakes.

Very interesting. Mostly train X2000 is very nice.

Only I would like to ask what size do you use? Train X2000 looks like it belongs to Pak128, but I am not sure.

Chybami se člověk učí - ale někteří lidé jsou nepoučitelní

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2013, 11:49:03 AM »
Hello václav!

I have drawn these trains incl. X2000 al by my self for pak.se so they dont 'belong' to pak.128 ;) that Said, its ofcorse possible to use Them for that pak. :) but i dont know if the allignment Will work.

The scale i used is approximately 1,5m pr every 'length' Unit in simutrans, that Will say every fourth pixel in the north-South-east-West-directions. But unfortunately it varies a little bit between different vehicles.

I have seen there is a x2000 on the simutrans addonsite, but this is another author.

Thanks for the comments! :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2014, 12:03:57 AM »
Har inte hållit på så mycket med detta på en stund, men har fått ett ryck nu på det senaste.

Jag har gått ifrån att använda blender, av flera anledningar, men blant annat för att jag tycker det är väldigt roligt att rita just i GIMP. Blender gav mig dock lite insikt i hur mycket djup (bredd) det faktiskt bör vara i fordonen för att de inte ska se platta ut. Därför har jag ritat om stort sett allt. :-)

Jag har skrotat spåren som jag först gjorde. Detta till fördel för ett gäng nya spår, hela 16 av slagsen(!!), där jag har gjort många varianter, för att senare kunna sålla bort. Gjorde två varianter av alla spår, en med smal spårbädd och en med bred... Jag har även i de lodrätta riktningarna (sydost/nordväst) breddat rälsen med 1 pixel. Detta för att det rent geometriskt på pixelnivå blir rätt då. Det betyder i sig att samtliga fordon är 1 pixel för smal i dessa riktningar. Lösningen ligger i att antingen bredda fordonen med 1 pixel, eller låta det vara, då det ändå är väldigt svårt att se.
Gjorde även snövarianter av alla, men jag hade missförståt hur Simutrans ritar bilderna, för snöversionen ser bara konstig ut. Dessa ska ritas om senare.
Samma ska även "upp"-riktningarna som just nu inte är ritade överhuvud taget. Jag vill vänta tills jag har fått koll på halv-/helhöjderna så jag vet hur jag ska rita. Har likaväl inte hunnit med att rita en ny järnvägsövergång heller.

Sen har jag ritat ett stationshus och en perrong! Stationshuset hade jag faktiskt ritat för länge sen, men inte förrens nu kommer den upp på bild. Jag har försökt göra perrongen till en typiskt svensk asfaltperrong som inte är speciellt hög. Man måste kliva upp i tåget! Bilden som jag hämtade färgerna från hade en närmast rosaktig färg på asfalten, så därför blev färgen på perrongen rosa, men det går att ändra om det nu blev för rosa :-)
Stationshuset har jag hämtat färgerna och inspiration till detaljerna från Ängelholms stationshus, fastän mitt avbildade hus är en lite mindre variant. Det är fortfarande många detaljer kvar som kan placeras på huset dock (skorstenar m.m.)

Sen har jag också linjerat om samtliga rälsobjekt så rälscentrum = tile centrum. Jag läste att pak128 planerar att göra detta, och jag tycker också det känns bättre med nedfäld spårbädd. Detta gör det också lättare att rita snyggare stationer, då perrongplattformarna inte behöver vara så höga och därmed ser bättre ut mot omgivningen också.



Här syns de fyra olika spårbäddarna: brun, grå, mörkgrå och mörkbrun/röd
Tittar man noga ser man att det finns varianter innanför de enskilda spårbäddarna.
Sen står det alla möjliga fordon. Har kopplat ihop några random, några medvetet, och parkerat för att se hur det hänger ihop med rälsen.
Ett objekt som också funnits ett stycke tid men inte kommit med på bild förrens nu är Ra-loket.



Den ljusbruna spårbädden har allt från betongslipers och högglansig räl till träslipers med rödrostig räl.


Här syns de fyra varianterna av räls med den närmast röda spårbädden. Bara träslipers, men med både rostig och glansig räl. På bilden syns också stationshuset,som har hissats upp i plattformhöjd med en trappa till gatunivå. Vill minnas mig ha sett detta vid flera stationer (bl.a. Ängelholm) men jag kan ha fel?


Som sagt blev snövarianten inte alls snygg. Bl.a. översåg jag en skuggning i diagonalerna och sen blev hela färgen fel. Ska rätta till det vid tillfälle. På bilden syns också den ignorerade rälsstigningen samt de två versioner av Ra-loket som funnits till. Men jag tycker nästan att snön som ligger på spåret ser bättre ut än den snön som ligger på resten av marken. Det har hamnat en massa lila pixlar runt omkring!


Här är en fullständig översikt över samtliga 80-talsvagnar. Det är små skillnader på några av dem, och är tänkt att de ska ske utan att spelaren märker det, tex skillnaden i de två blå/grå samt de två svarta målningarna.


Till sist en bild på 60-talsvagnarna, också en komplett bild med allt jag ritat av dem. Samma sak gäller här i de blå/grå målningarna.

Vagnen som står på spår 3 uppifrån (gäller också vagnarna på spår 2 i 80-talsvagnarna) är SJ's koncept "City Express". Skillnaden på bilderna är bara att det hänger en liten skyllt på sidan där det står "City Express". Meningen är att spelaren ska kunna välja en livery och då får 1:a-klassvagnarna på sig den skylten. Samma princip är tänkt med "Interregio" (de blå vagnarna med rött streck) där vagnarna byter från den blå-grå målningen om man väljer den livery.


Är det någon som har några synspunkter, kommentarer kritik etc så vill jag väldigt gärna höra dem :)
Kan även ladda upp pak-filer om någon är intresserad.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 12:16:18 AM by ViolinVictor »

Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2014, 12:16:59 AM »
WOW!!!

Ser enormt mycket bättre ut! (det såg bra ut innan med ;) )
Jag tycker rälsen är ett stort lyft och som du säger, nu stämmer proportionerna bättre. Ser kanoonbra ut!
- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2014, 10:07:53 AM »
Tack! :)

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2014, 10:59:44 AM »
Här kommer en komplett bild på 40-talsvagnarna.
Dessa finns inte i så många variationer, eftersom SJ i stort sett hela vagnarnas levnadstid körde med SJ-bruna vagnar. Det finns i dagsläget fortfarande 40-talsvagnar kvar i drift och har målats om till modernare färger, men de är typiskt ombyggt till sovvagnar och utanför Simutrans omedelbara simulering. Skillnaden på de två rader är dels lite olika vagnar, men sen att översta raden är nitade vagnar, medans den undre är svetsade vagnar. Igen, här är det meningen att spelaren inte ska märka när man började svetsa vagnarna istället för att nita dem. Loken är Ds, först i träkorg och sen i stålkorg.


Offline Junna

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2014, 01:23:34 PM »
De nya spåren ser fruktansvärt möra ut måste jag säga.

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2014, 02:03:38 PM »
Möra, menar du att rälen ser "platt" ut?

Offline Junna

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2014, 03:19:47 PM »
Möra, menar du att rälen ser "platt" ut?

Hah, nej, jag menar att de är mycket trevliga. ;p

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2014, 05:35:42 PM »
Haha jamen tack :-)

skit! jag upptäckte precis att jag när jag tog skärmdumparna hade glömt aktivera lagret med skuggorna på 80-talsvagnarna, så alla 80-talsvagnar saknar skuggorna som ska sitta på vagnsväggarna. jaja har sparat skuggorna nu, så de efterkommande skärmdumparna skulle gärna ha skuggor på sig :P

Offline Yona-TYT

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2014, 08:01:15 PM »
[ +1 ]  :thumbsup: 

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2014, 12:24:08 PM »
[ +1 ]  :thumbsup:

Tack, thanks! :) (you speek swedish? :P )

Hur föreslår ni att det fortsätts? Ska det ritas flera saker nu, eller är det dax att börja balancera eller fokusera på något annat område? Någon av er som är sugna på att göra nått eller har idéer?

What about you non-swedish-people? If someone wants to contribute in some way or give any kind of feedback it would be very much appreciated :)

Offline Vladki

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2014, 01:27:37 PM »
What about you non-swedish-people? If someone wants to contribute in some way or give any kind of feedback it would be very much appreciated :)
Well, judging from screenshots, it looks really cool. I'd like to try it out, where can I download pak.sweden?
And by the way, I spent a few years at your neighbours in Finland. Would you consider adding some finnish or norwegian vehicles?

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2014, 01:52:56 PM »
Hello! thank you! :)

I was just putting the files on my drop-box:

Dropbox-folder

For you information, this is not a working pakset. There is not done any balancing at all so you cannot play with it. Just drive around with the trains :P
You will also need to have the Simutrans Experiemental and to put my files down onto an existing pakset and overwrite when asked. I hope that my ground will take over the default.

At the moment, I will focus on the swedish side, but in the future, I would love to do Scandinavia ;) But as you probably know.. its a BIG work... :)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 02:49:49 PM by Ves »

Offline vorlon

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2014, 02:18:09 PM »
And by the way, I spent a few years at your neighbours in Finland. Would you consider adding some finnish or norwegian vehicles?

I've planned for some time now to paint finnish trains but my skills aren't quite up to the task yet. I plan to continue the project someday, but it will have to wait until I learn blender. Rotations and shadows are a huge pain when painting pixel by pixel. I have as an experiment finished the Sr1 electric locomotive and I'm happy with it, although it was the easiest to paint being a crude, old soviet-designed brick. :P



Maybe we could indeed someday join forces to form a glorious pak.scandinavia...  ;)

Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2014, 03:23:42 PM »
Om vi vet vilka industrier som skall vara med så kan vi ju anpassa lite vagnar efter det.

Sverige är ju känt för sina gruvor, stålindustri och bilindustri. Att återskapa produktionskedjan för t.ex. Volvo involverar en mängd olika industrier, som t.ex. Gruva, stål, textil, elektronik, kemi och petroleum (kemi?) för att nämna några få områden. Varje område kan sedan brytas ned i flera olika processer.

Utöver detta behövs ju också de små detaljerna, som city trafik och fotgängare.

Sedan har vi ju de övriga transport slagen också...
- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2014, 04:18:35 PM »
Quote from: vorlon
I've planned for some time now to paint finnish trains

Nice loco!
If you have planned now for some time, then its time to get started ;) you probably will end up redraw many things many times (at least I had to up to this point and probably will have to in the future) but when you get the feel, its much easier!

I took the freedom to download your loco, realign it and let it haul some cars on the yard. hope you dont mind :)


First of all, the picture you uploaded were jpg, so there was som qualityloss and I had to remove some ghost partickels but stil available as light spots on the ingame view. If you could upload a png, then it will be clearer :)
Then I think you made the same mistake as I did, making the loco to narrow. basically, the roof has to be almost as wide as the body is high. The RC locos have a height of about 4,5m and is 3,1m wide. that means the with (of the RC-loco) should be roughly 0.7 times the height. My RC is actually even a little wider, just so it wil feels good in the game.

But if you start painting, would you consider use the same scale as I, so that there will not be too much diversion if that big scandinavian-project once would become true? :)
My railtemplate:

Every 'knot' (every four pixels in the north/south east/west directon) in the allignementtools represent roughly 1.4-1.6 meters.

Now I dont know how often finnish and swedish trains were mixed in the years. I could imagine some kind of interaction up in northern Sweden/Finland but I never heard about finnish trains down in the more southern part of sweden. I know that sweden has a very big loadingprofile, making it dificult for some swedish stock to get outside the countryborders. But i know that the RC-locos with 80-generation wagons (maybe also 60- and 40-generation?) and X2000 is able to drive in norway, and X2000 at least is able to drive in denmark ath some other trains.

By the way, I putted the savegame with the yard on the pictures in the dropboxfolder, so you dont have to lay down all the different tracks :)
dropbox folder


Quote from: maxmax
Om vi vet vilka industrier som skall vara med så kan vi ju anpassa lite vagnar efter det.

Sverige är ju känt för sina gruvor, stålindustri och bilindustri. Att återskapa produktionskedjan för t.ex. Volvo involverar en mängd olika industrier, som t.ex. Gruva, stål, textil, elektronik, kemi och petroleum (kemi?) för att nämna några få områden. Varje område kan sedan brytas ned i flera olika processer.

Utöver detta behövs ju också de små detaljerna, som city trafik och fotgängare.

Sedan har vi ju de övriga transport slagen också...

Ok jag funderade också på att kika lite på godsvagnar. Har researchat lite och hittat lite fakta på några vagnar från början av 1900-talet.
Har inte du lust att designa några industrier? alltså rita/rendera några :)
Tex hur ska en gruva se ut? hål i marken? små gruvstugor? stor monstergruva som pak.britterna precis har skaffat? eller ännu större gruva, bara för att Sverige har världens äldsta gruvföretag (äldsta företag överhuvudtaget faktiskt).
Hur ska stålindustrins grafik se ut? ett stort blått hus som Domnarvet i Borlänge?
Brainstorma lite, prova några renderingar, så kan jag kika på lite godsvagnar och finna några typiska :)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 04:25:55 PM by Ves »

Offline vorlon

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2014, 07:57:25 PM »
Quote
First of all, the picture you uploaded were jpg, so there was som qualityloss––

Strange. When I open the link in Imageshack it's shown as png. Anyway, the loco doesn't quite seem to fit in with the other trains. Maybe that is because of the difference in width. I think my template was downloaded from somewhere around the pak128 forums, but it might be obsolete. It seems to match better with the standard pak128 trains which was my original goal, though most locos and coaches in pak128 are both too narrow and short by my mind. So I will definitely start using your template.

Quote
Now I dont know how often finnish and swedish trains were mixed in the years. I could imagine some kind of interaction up in northern Sweden/Finland but I never heard about finnish trains down in the more southern part of sweden.

Finnish tracks have wider gauge (1 524 mm) than swedish tracks which use the international gauge, so the interaction is limited to the short track on the border between Tornio and Haparanda which has tracks of both gauges. In that respect including finnish trains to the set might not be a good idea, as having finnish and swedish trains running on the same tracks is not realistic.

Anyway, I don't currently have the time to learn blender but the plans remain. I will continue drawing but a megaproject like painting all finnish trains will have to wait. I'll be glad to contribute to the set when I have more to contribute with. Meanwhile, feel free to use or modify the Sr1 if you wish and keep up the good work. The graphics I've seen so far look awesome and hopefully pak.sweden or pak.scandinavia or whatever name it ends up with developes into a fully playable pakset.  :)

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2014, 08:46:48 PM »
Thank you very much! :)

ok I must have done something wrong then. Will have to try again :)

I also found the pak128 trains very short and I felt that it would limit too much to keep it to that small scale. That means that my trains have becom both longer, wider and taller. But I realize also that I with this decission never can use my vehicles together with any other pak's trains existing at the moment.

ah ok, if they have different gauges, then it probably will be very unrealistic to include one to the other if one are not simulating Trerikesröset :P
But you can use my other stuf if and as you want!


First attempt to make a 'Malmvagn' (Iron-ore car)
The car is too wide I think and big in general to simulate the car I tried to paint (M1 from 1890) along with some details that still are missing. So just look at this as a prototypecar :)

Offline Vladki

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2014, 10:39:11 PM »
Huh, what a beast engine is that? Three part articulated engine? Something running from swedish iron ore mines to Narvik harbour?

Sr1 is nice but too small compared to the other cars. And it used to be red-white instead of green-white 10 years ago.

Anyway keep up the good work. Now I have one more reason to try out experimental.

Regarding scale - did you compare yours with pak britain, german or czechoslovak? I think all if those are a bit larger that plaun pak128.

Sent using recycled electrons.


Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2014, 07:26:11 PM »
Now when we are going to join our forces we need to work out a standard regarding scale, color palette and shadows.

SCALE
Since Ves (former ViolinVictor?) used Blender to get the size right I suggest we use his scale. This would make it easier for anyone who use blender or other CAD tools.

@Ves can you share your scale with us in pixels and Blender units?

SHADOWS
The shadow is already defined for Simutrans, but as long "our" pak is uniformed we can decide upon any shadow we like. In Simutrans guidelines the Sun is at a 60 degree angle from the south. The shadow length can be calculated as:

length = height / tan(angle)

So if your house/train etc. is 10px high, the shadow, south to north should be 10/tan(60) =  5.7pixels. Or simply as a 1.7 ratio.

New shadow 
Since this is a Nordic PAK, we are a bit more north which changes the sun's angle a bit. The sun location can be placed at the average between Denmark, Oslo, Stockholm and Helsinki (57°42'00.0"N 16°00'00.0"E).

This is the Sun's angle for each season (taking the middle date at 12:00).

SeasonAngleShadow Factor
Spring (April)42.410.91
Summer (July)54.521.4
Autum (October)23.290.43
Winter(January)11.720.21

To get the shadow length, divide height with the shadow factor.
The sun's angle will also play a role in color schemes (see below).

COLORS
Depending on the object, a defined color scale will give the look and feel of one PAK, not a PAK mad up of several individual paks.
Objects that would benefit from this are ground, trees, water etc...
Buildings would preferable not include the ground, but if they do, should try to use the same color scheme as the roads/ground.

If we are going to be really anal about color schemes, we should have different color schemes depending on season because the sun is at different angles at 12:00. When the sun is at it highest peak, a clear day in the summer, it has a color temperature about 5500K (neutral). We can shift the color palette towards red as the sun's angle decrease.

I have not yet figured out a formula for the shifting, but I'm working on it...
- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2014, 09:03:07 PM »
Huh, what a beast engine is that? Three part articulated engine? Something running from Swedish iron ore mines to Narvik harbour?

Sr1 is nice but too small compared to the other cars. And it used to be red-white instead of green-white 10 years ago.

Anyway keep up the good work. Now I have one more reason to try out experimental.

Regarding scale - did you compare yours with pak britain, german or czechoslovak? I think all if those are a bit larger that plaun pak128.

Sent using recycled electrons.

Yes this is the Dm3  8)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SJ_Dm3

I downloaded the Czechoslovak pakset and tried a waggon in it. Unfortunately my waggon was very much bigger, but wow that is a cool pak! very big variation on the vehicles and the demomap was impressive! :)
The 'Deutsch' pak was actually the opposite in the question of size: It was just a snippet too large for my controlwaggon to look good. Then of cause there is the alignment that differs from both the paks and that I want to use lowered track (as standard pak128 will do I think?)

So I think that (unfortunately) this pak will not be compatible with those paks.


Yes that is correct i changed from ViolinVictor to Ves, because I use Ves in some other forum, and found ViolinVictor maybe a little bit silly in this forum :p but I have written there on the left side that my former name was ViolinVictor.

Now the scale:
The blendercar I made was much too big so its not usefull at all. But looking at the longest waggon (that should have the highest 'resolution') it is  26,4 meter representabled in simutrans by 17 vehiclesteps which is 17*4=68 pixels in horizontal pixeldirection.

If you lay the vehiclesteps-template out on a tile, you will see that a tile is 16 vehiclesteps long, 16*4=64 pixels.

26,4m/68px*64px = 24.8, roughly 25 meter pr tile

Just to give some calculations on this:
Vehiclestep in the template= 1.56 meter
One meter= 128 / 25^2 + 25^2 = 3.62 pixels in horisontal direction


In order to make the trains look god assembled, I recommend to very much use the template (if you are making trains) I made to correct rends in length and maybe a little trial and error in game.

But should the scale be the same on trains, cars, buildings?
The station I made is two tiles wide, thats 25*2=50 meters, which actual is in the bigger range. The Ängelholm station-house is the main building is infact around 25m wide. (crap! might have to redo that at some point then :redx: )

But does it sound reasonable with 25m/tile? Or have I calculated wrong somewhere?


@Max-max, you can have my blenderwagon, and resize it so it fits with the existing and then your resize will be the blendertemplate. Is it possible? the blendercar is on dropbox: Dropbox folder


I have not currently done much shadows, but I agree that it would be very fun to just state a point and have different shadows than 'down south' ;) And also very cool, if you could make summer-shadows and winther-shadows. Its gonna be a big project to keep all different shadows in sync, but done right it could be a marvelous effect! I have no specific shadows on my trains yet and the different trains shadows are not even in syncronize with other train shadow. This is quite easy to correct since I have made shadows as layers in GIMP.

Same with colors. Here I have on my trains taken the colors from pictures and put right in to GIMP. I know this may be dangerous because a color can differ aloth when taken from different angels and in different lights. This is also quite easy on most of the trains to adjust as this also has its own layer (but some trains I painted before i 'discovered' GIMP, so they will be harder). But it would be really cool if the entire screen is changing its colorsheme during winter/summer!

But this with different shadows and colors leaves the question: How many seasons can different objects have? I know threes can have 4, but what about buildings and other objects? can 'everything' have seasons?
And what are the chances that we get ice on the water? ;)

And now another question:
My copy of the pak.sweden is a little mix between pak128.standard and pak128.britain which I have put down my stufs onto. Am I allowed to put this entire pakfolder on my dropbox and share it with you without doing anything else?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 09:54:07 PM by Ves »

Offline Vladki

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2014, 09:54:35 PM »
Regarding scale. There was a recent discussion on british forum. They agreed on 28 m/tile. I think 25 is fine as well. However 24 would be good for drawing as it would do exactly 1.5 m/step.

Is there a possibility to adust the day/night cycle. It would be cool to have the white summer nights and short winter days.

Sent using recycled electrons.


Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2014, 11:15:06 PM »
Yes I saw that they agreed on 28m/tile. But I also read in that thread sombody saying clipping errors would occur if the trains was too long. Do you know abut that? Would it affect us?

For me it is more important that the cars look good connected in the train, than the conversionfactor is precise and leaving gaps or overlapping trains.

Actually I have just gone through all my vehicles in a excellsheet, and some of them are variying quite much in length-scale and could actually benefit from a little rescaling. I must admit this probably happend because you only can define lengths for every fourth pixels and then I have used already drawn stuff to get the length of new stuff, and when trying to make it look good, its easier to add length than shorten down. At least my tendency is scaling uppwards. I have conversionfactors down to 1.32, creating a 21 m/tile. But this I will correct what is most out of length-scale, once we agree on something :)
But most of my vehicles have a factor of arround 1.44 to 1.55.

You could say it like this: The shorter tiles, the bigger you can create the objects and adding more detail to it. Ideally would be something like a 20 m/tile or 15 m/tile, but this I doubt would be . So I could agree on a approximately 24 m/tile instead of 25 m/tile :)

Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2014, 02:09:41 AM »
...I have written there on the left side that my former name was ViolinVictor.
Duh...  :::)

I let you guys decide upon scale because I don't think I will be doing any vehicles myself anyway, I can stick to buildings :)
I did some roads in blender but didn't get the slopes match too well. This is my Blender test graphics to test the workflow.
Down to the right you can see the mouse placing a garage (highlighted border around).



It seems lilke we are going to need a server to put everything on. When I moved in here I had a walking closet, now it is a server room :) I happen to have some space left in the server rack. Maybe I can put up something for us under http://pak128nordic.mkdevelopment.se. I can get up an FTP server quite fast and then look at a Wiki system for us.

Regarding scale,
I think I red somewhere that Simutrans actually are using 2 scales, one for vehicles and one for buildings. I really doesn't matter as long we all stick to the same scales and rules. I really like the Comic PAK maybe we can ask them what scales they are using?

Seasons.
I know there are winter images for all buildings and I'm not sure but I think I saw that this actually was treated as a season parameter in the code. There is only one way to find out.... test  and see what happens ;D

I know for sure that trees has all 4 seasons.
- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Vladki

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2014, 07:08:57 AM »
Seasons - iirc buildings have two - with snow and without. Fields have five - spring, summer, autumn, winter and snow. However I dont know where is the setting for season times

Sent using recycled electrons.


Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2014, 12:48:47 PM »
Ok, after a nights sleep it feels like 24 m/tile is the way to go. It will be easier to calculate length of vehicles when drawing and it also makes everything a little (marginal) bigger than if it was 25 m/tile.

Nice 'city' you made there Max-Max! I also made som roads (they are on dropbox) which some of them are visible on some of my screenshoots.

I think the comic paks are not in 128 pixelsize, but 192, 96 and 32 (there are three comic paks!) djudging from the screenshoots of the 192, the trains seems to be a little shortened.
But you could ask them how many meters their buildings represent and adapt that. I like big buildings (grafically big), so the bigger you can make them with more detail, the better ;)


But the question remains:

Should the style be as photo-realistic as possible?
Should the style have other elements, clearly showing the player that this is meant to be accurate, but not photorealistic?

To answer my view on the subject, it would be cool with higly photorealistic texture, but my impression is that it will be very difficult to do that with the way the Simutrans engine is build. You can not make objects cast satisfyingly shadows on other objects or the ground or make it consecuently darker between the cars in a train and lots of such small cant's all over the place.
So I think a little tuch of 'comic' is needed in the pak in order for it to appear acceptable. But altough i like the comic paksets I must say, that in our pakset, I would not like to have it that comic.


Our pak has to represent something you can not yet get in any other pak :)


ok, then its just start testing with the season-images! But Ice on the water, is it possible?


Wow, that would be awesome to put on the server!
But I asked earlier, can I legally just upload 'whatever I have downloaded from Simutrans website and changed and modifyed' to the internet without any aproval?

Offline vorlon

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2014, 02:58:24 PM »
Quote from: Ves
ok, then its just start testing with the season-images! But Ice on the water, is it possible?


Wow, that would be awesome to put on the server!
But I asked earlier, can I legally just upload 'whatever I have downloaded from Simutrans website and changed and modifyed' to the internet without any aproval?

The issue of ice was discussed in the pak128 forum. They figured that lakes, oceans and navigable rivers should not freeze, since ships would still traverse normally through the ice-graphics and that would look silly. Small rivers that ships can't use were drawn fully frozen for winter, but that has no gameplay impact. I guess a nice thing to have for a nordic pakset would be partially frozen oceans with icebreakers carving new routes, if there was someone to write the code.  :)

Pak128 went open source a while ago and it's released under Artistic license 2.0. I'm not really a license expert, but basically you can release modified versions if source materials (png's and dat's) are also provided. More or less the same goes for pak128.Britain although I'm not sure what exact license they are using.

Also, you have to decide if half-height tiles and the new climate settings (including lakes, for example) are worth adopting. It would mean more drawing but I've played with the new engine for some time and it's quite impressive. The change would be easier to undergo now when the amount of new ground and way graphics is still low. And getting rid of the raised ballast for railways was another change that pak128 took but your rails seem to be already flat, if I see correctly.

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2014, 09:05:52 PM »
Crap! I had just written a long text as a reply, then the "send" button sended it right into space, disappearing for good! :-(

Well...

I want to adapt the new climate system and half height. I think it would add very much to the feeling to get half tile slopes. I'm just waiting for James to put the code into experimental so I can start try it out in game.

Ok, I will try to clear my installation so its only pak128 standard and pak.sweden stuff. Then when Max-Max get his server up and running it should all go there so you download a complete pakset.

One way to address the issue is to paint a water trail which will simulate a wake on the boat itself. The boat will drag the wake after it simulating the ice freezing again after the boat. It will probably be very ugly but plausible with current code.

A way to code it (now it is hypothetical since we are creating pakset, not code ;) ) would be to remove the ice on the tile under the boat and make the ice appear again after x minutes. This would also create a wake, much longer and nicer than with the first mode.
An icebreaker way to do it would also be really cool, but it woul maybe be too much ;-)

Offline Junna

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2014, 12:43:05 AM »
Balansering och sådant bör vänta till ett fullständigt sätt av fordon, infrastruktur och byggnader/industrier existerar, så det lär ligga en bra bit i framtiden. Det bör väl även vara prioriterat att försäkra visuell enhetlighet, så det inte blir så rörigt med olika skuggor och former som det är i en hel del paksätt.

Att rita dem för hand tycks emellertid ett fruktansvärt smärtsamt arbete...

Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2014, 03:38:21 AM »
Balansering och sådant bör vänta till ett fullständigt sätt av fordon, infrastruktur och byggnader/industrier existerar, så det lär ligga en bra bit i framtiden. Det bör väl även vara prioriterat att försäkra visuell enhetlighet, så det inte blir så rörigt med olika skuggor och former som det är i en hel del paksätt.

Att rita dem för hand tycks emellertid ett fruktansvärt smärtsamt arbete...
We have Non Swedish speaking team members here so we try to keep this project in English.

Here is a ruff translation:

"We should wait with game balance until we have a full set of vehicles, infrastructure and buildings/industries. This will come further down the road. We should prioritise visual unity first. For example shadows not pointing in different directions, as it can be seen in some other PAK-sets. To paint them by hand seems to be a painful job."

Welcome back Junna :)

I just had a big post about shadows and the sun's position on the sky during the four seasons. We just decided the vehicle scale and it was suggested to have a clean design, something between PAK128 and Comic (but not that much comic).

We have also included Finland to the pack so we will call it pak128nordic (but I guess the Sweden will be the dominating country).
I have have put up a temporary FTP server (until I have renovated a little better server) for the development so we can share our work without public publicity. You will need a private login and password, let me know if you need one.
- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Vladki

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2014, 10:51:35 AM »
One way to address the issue is to paint a water trail which will simulate a wake on the boat itself. The boat will drag the wake after it simulating the ice freezing again after the boat. It will probably be very ugly but plausible with current code.
I think this could be done as a sort of smoke...

Anyway as I got somehow dragged into this project I offer adapting my roadsigns from pak128.cz. I checked on wikipedia, that Norway has the same colors as CZ, but Sweden and Finland have green highway sign and red-yellow no-entry signs. So if you like my design (a bit more on the comic side though) I can change the colors to Swedish/Finnish. Some screenshots are on the czech forum: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=9551.0


Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2014, 01:59:42 PM »
I hope that you not only feel dragged in a bad way ;)

I think that in general all white spaces on any given sign is represented as yellow in Sweden. In Finland I don't know the rules, but both Denmark and Norway uses white 'as usual'. The "motorway color" in Sweden is green, the "country road color" is blue and the "city color" is white, this meaning that signs that refer to (mainly when signs giving directions) one of the different types of road would have the different color.

But if you would want to do the job, you could to start with repaint your signs so the white is replaced by yellow. To find the 'correct' yellow, search google for the Wikipedia article about Swedish signs. Then the question of size, I cannot judge from the screenshots in the thread, but the signals might have to be resized if they appear too big or small. I hope you would allow such changes to the signs as well as maybe some kind of antialiasing towards whatever street we finally will get. But first yellow variations! :)

Smoke...! Interesting! Only hinder might be if smoke always is painted in front image?

Hello Junna! Yes let's talk English so everybody understand :)

It is a rather big job to paint by hand, but I hope that you find it good enough to be included :)  at least I feel much more in control painting pixel by pixel, as I can fade almost everything in the very direction I want.
Good point in waiting with balancing till much later!

Shadows should of cause be the same and here I will change my shadows on the vehicles to follow the visual style if it is needed. But of cause there will need to be quite some effort from every painter/renderer to keep it visual consistent.

I'm not home at the moment and cannot upload anything to Max server before Monday....

Max max how is it going in calculating the colors you mentioned in the earlier post?

Junna, you have made some impressive graphic for the pak Britain, how would you want the visual appeal of this pakset to be? As my screenshots or something else?