Author Topic: Pak.Sweden....!  (Read 50842 times)

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Offline Junna

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2014, 12:35:04 AM »
Was it agreed to include Finland and/or any eventual other (Norway or Denmark I assume) graphics? I do not think that it is a problem that there is a different gauge - we ought to ignore that, and there is no reason to have a separate 1524/20 gauge, as they are close enough that they would not look much different - though it would be nice if eventually there would a alternative narrow gauge to stand-in for both 1067/600mm gauge lines, of which there was a fair number in at least both Sweden and Finland.

Furthermore, as regards the graphics, I mean that I would be reluctant to make any graphics since it might violate the graphic integrity of your work, and it might not be good (the work that me and my boyfriend did was all made in Blender, have no knowledge of how to draw manually, and very impatient!) to mess it up with things that do not match (like my Ma)...

Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2014, 12:54:34 AM »
I will try to put down all the things, I "think" we have agreed on, into a design document.

@Junna, I'm a Blender fan myself and will do my parts with Blender. I have a template fro the Standard Simutrans Sun, but I guess I have to adjust it a bit to whatever we decide here.

I have said that I can do some buildings and factories (Swedish mostly). When it comes to track width between Finland and Sweden I think we can go what Ves have as the standard for all the nordic countries (does it really show in the graphics anyway?). A small gauge would be interesting since Sweden had a quite large network, especially around the industries. I think it is important that there is a distinct difference in the graphics between them so it clearly shows what is narrow and not.
- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2014, 02:12:01 AM »
Yes a narrow gauge is very much a must I think! Sweden would not be what it is today if not for all the small narrow gauge lines running all around during the time. The different in graphic I suggest use the same ballast as standard gauge for consistency but with significantly smaller tracks, also centered in the ground.

This also raises the question:
Are we about to model only SJ (in Sweden) or will we aim to model some of the other companies as well?

I think we should at least get some of the other big operators which has/had a little longer lifespan like TGOJ, LKAB etc.
I want to be able to in a multiplayer game, people are different companies with different roles and preferences.

 I'm convinced that one can use both rendered and painted vehicles side by side, if we just are flexible. When max Max blender template is somewhat worked out you should put your Ma through that and see what we get. Some tweaks here and there in blender and some tweaks in my painting convention should hopefully make everything match nice together. In fact I have been really scared of the steam engines, so my plan was to be friends with blender and render them once it will be actual.

This creates the question:
What timespan do we want? Ideally the longer as possible, but how long is interesting?
My trains reaches at the moment back to 1930.

And after all, I think my ground texture make quite a clear statement of style, but it MUST not be that ground I painted. I'm not sure myself whether I'm happy with all the colors yet so that's open for discussion.

Since we are the first (what I'm aware of together with Vorlon) to think and start a pak up in the north, I hope that if someone suddenly starts making pak.Denmark or Norway would consider to coordinate with us. This would create some amazing possibilities not yet in any pak (what I'm aware of) where you could do simulations of borders and rules in different countries. Just imagine a multiplayer game.... And if not for that, then to save work since many traincars, buildings, industries etc are shared between the countries.
If someone absolutely want not to make a compatible pakset, that would be really sad I think. But if nobody is volunteering to start a pak Denmark/Norway then I probably can't resist and start painting Danish trains once in the future. And after that Norwegian, but now we are talking years and years into the future :-)

Good point in the gaugedifferenties between Finland <-> the world. One playing the set is maybe most likely to play one country at a time (if not a massive multiplayer game...) and then it actually would be totally out of question whether the gauge is different. If one would want it we could code some tracks as "Finnish" (the country, not that they are finnish = ready ( sorry.. Bad humor :) )) and only allow Finnish train to drive there. That was actually one of my considerations when brainstorming for the big Nordic pak setting prohibitions on the tracks so that one country's trains cannot automatically drive in another country if they not are constructed so (when Swedish trains have the "K" in their signature, they can drive in Denmark)

Very good idea with a design document! Then it will be easier to get an overview of status and information. Very important is that it is easy to modify as we probably to start with are gonna update it quite often.



Offline vorlon

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2014, 10:53:30 AM »
If desired, wider Finnish tracks could be assigned to a totally different waytype. I don't think there will be need for a monorail or a maglev-slot in a nordic pakset so those could be used for the different gauges. There would have to be some graphical differences in the different rails though, because having two identical rail sections that refuse to connect might be a bit confusing for some players. I'm not sure if simply painting the two rails with a longer distance between them is enough to make the difference between the waytypes obvious.

Or the difference could be ignored completely. It's not that big a deal and if someone wanted to make a realistic map, it'd still be possible to use the Finnish trains on a separated network.

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This also raises the question:
Are we about to model only SJ (in Sweden) or will we aim to model some of the other companies as well?

Do the different companies use the same types of trains? Because if so, we could benefit from the feature of simutrans-experimental, which allows same locos and cars to have different liveries. Different liveries would also be useful for simulating the different colour-schemes that companies have had over time: the Finnish Sr1 for example has had three different paint jobs over it's history.

Offline Ves

Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2014, 11:17:53 AM »
Very interesting point in using the maglev/monorail slot as Finnish trains! But I think also that that need careful thought so it not just feels weird having two apparently same functions.

Yes I indeed want to use the liveryfunction in the experimental game engine and have also used it already on some places. On my wish list to James is that you can sort the vehicles in the depot by company, making only vehicles of that company visible in the depot.

Ideally of a pak with our ambition would be to have multiple sort parameters: country, company, variation (eg standard and express train)

Offline Vladki

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2014, 01:36:16 PM »
I hope that you not only feel dragged in a bad way ;)
Not at all, just do not expect too much from me. I have no experience in drawing vehicles.

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But if you would want to do the job, you could to start with repaint your signs so the white is replaced by yellow. To find the 'correct' yellow, search google for the Wikipedia article about Swedish signs. Then the question of size, I cannot judge from the screenshots in the thread, but the signals might have to be resized if they appear too big or small. I hope you would allow such changes to the signs as well as maybe some kind of antialiasing towards whatever street we finally will get. But first yellow variations! :)
Here is an attempt on road-closed sign. I tried not only yellow but also a bit thicker border. There is also the CZ version on the screenshot for comparison. Choose if you want white or grey signposts. For CZ I use both as they used to be painted white, but in 90. they began to use galvanised (Zinc) signposts. I have commented out the intro/retire dates, use whatever you find suitable.

As to the scale - they are definitely too big. If using the 24m/tile scale the sign would be 3.75m in diameter. If using 16m/tile - which is based on rail gauge - 6 tiles and cca 1.5 m (something in between the standard and finnish/russian gauge), then the sign would be 2.5m in diameter. Still too much. The right scale would be the same as pak64 signs. Well choose if you want exact scale or good visibility.

Of course any changes are allowed. I'll put the sources on FTP.

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2014, 03:23:35 PM »
That was a nice sign! I think you managed to cough the right colors and good spotted that Swedish signs tends to have little wider red part! ;) How does these fit into the Czech street map? I don't think we have yet decided upon any actual streetscale as it might look better with something else than the rail scale. But it's also open for discussion :-)

I will download your files tomorrow and try out in the game as I'm not home in the weekend.

Ok, nice to hear! Do as much as you want :)

Offline Vladki

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2014, 04:41:04 PM »
That was a nice sign! I think you managed to cough the right colors and good spotted that Swedish signs tends to have little wider red part! ;)
Just as the wikipedia article told me. ;) However early (pre WWII) czechoslovak roadsigns had also wider red part, and I considered making that version earlier, but then I decided it is not worth the pain, as they were in use only for a few years.

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How does these fit into the Czech street map? I don't think we have yet decided upon any actual streetscale as it might look better with something else than the rail scale. But it's also open for discussion :-)
Well the width of the other signs is the same as the width of the sidewalk, and height is the same as (full) tile height. This one is a bit of an exception. Nobody complained about them being oversized until I made a bus stop sign of the same size. The partial conclusion was that road sings are important feature and deserve to be exaggerated as otherwise one could overlook them. However I think the same about bus stops.

Offline vorlon

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2014, 07:09:59 PM »
I just realized that the idea of having different rail waytypes will not work because only railway-waytype allows level crossings with roads. I guess allowing crossings isn't very easy or trivial to change. It was a good idea while it lasted...

Quote from: Vladki
Choose if you want white or grey signposts.

I definitely like the grey poles more. They resemble the reality more closely and also look less pixelated against the road. The shade of grey has to be carefully chosen though, to avoid it blending in with the road too much. The colour in the screenshot seems pretty good.

Also concerning signs (and roads): what speed limits do we want? In Finland the most common speed limits are 120, 100 and 80 km/h, while in Sweden they are 10 kph lower respectively, if I recall correctly. It's mainly an issue with the signs as the difference is too low to be noticed in the speed of the vehicles.

I don't think scale should restrict the sign designs too much. It is more important to make them clearly visible for the players as they have an important role in the functionality of road networks. However I like how Max-Max put right of way -signs in intersection as a part of the road graphics. I would love to see more of them in places like roundabouts and parking lots. Such "ambient" signs don't need to be as big as those with gameplay impacts.

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2014, 10:57:46 PM »
But isn't it just because there is no "crossing.pak" between monorail and street/normal rail? I know that if you remove the crossing between rail and street (and somehow manage to start simutrans) you can not build crossings between the two.

Automatic signs in crossings is a must in my opinion! Really ads to the look! I tried to do it on some of my ways, but managed only partly as you maybe can see in the pak files on Dropbox. I would also like to automatic have new speed signs when changing road type but that will be quite difficult. One way to do it is to paint the changed speed sign on all way tiles and if the next road tile is the same it will overlap the sign somehow. But that is difficult!

Anyway I don't think they should diverge too much in size, since it might look odd. I think instead all signs should be relative big so you can read them on the map.

The design of the signs should however allow for a sign being placed over or on top or next to a sign created by the road, eg a right of way-sign.
For instance, if I want to place a choose sign in an intersection and a right of way-sign is present.

The roads I painted has the limits of 50, 70 and 90 km/h. I have not painted any motorway yet which in Sweden is 110km/h

In Denmark the speeds are:
50, 80, 130

In Norway it is:
50, 80, 100

Of cause there are lots of diversions and variations but I think these are the ones standing at the border of the countries.

But how would you like it? All speeds in steps of 10km/h intervals or only a set of intervals?

Should all countries have it's own set of roads (with different graphics?) for the player to choose?

In the question of white and grey, could we have both?
I want that you in the pak are able to see when something is getting old. I think that the white sign pole appeared actually just like light grey, reflecting the surroundings and the other as dark grey and such small details are perfect to put in in order to make the dark pole signal to appear older than the other. If it's not too much work?

Offline Vladki

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2014, 11:38:26 PM »
But isn't it just because there is no "crossing.pak" between monorail and street/normal rail? I know that if you remove the crossing between rail and street (and somehow manage to start simutrans) you can not build crossings between the two.
I think so - because in pak128.cz we have a crossing for narrow gauge, and in pak128 there are crossings for road/water and rail/water.

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Automatic signs in crossings is a must in my opinion! Really ads to the look! I tried to do it on some of my ways, but managed only partly as you maybe can see in the pak files on Dropbox.
I played a bit with pak.sweden and the road crossing has bad alignment of rails.

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I would also like to automatic have new speed signs when changing road type but that will be quite difficult.
Uff, I don't think that will work well. Think of the speed limits more as about quality of the road.

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The design of the signs should however allow for a sign being placed over or on top or next to a sign created by the road, eg a right of way-sign. For instance, if I want to place a choose sign in an intersection and a right of way-sign is present.
Most of my signs have same height and shape. So if the road included signs have pole aligned at the same place and are lower, then it could work. However the pole might be drawn over the smaller sign and I can't do anything about that.

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In the question of white and grey, could we have both?
I want that you in the pak are able to see when something is getting old. I think that the white sign pole appeared actually just like light grey, reflecting the surroundings and the other as dark grey and such small details are perfect to put in in order to make the dark pole signal to appear older than the other. If it's not too much work?
Do you want the poles of already built signs to change color during the game as they are getting older? I'm afraid that's not possible. The only thing I can do is to make a switch, that at some year (you choose), white poles retire, and grey poles are introduced. Otherwise it is not a problem to make both versions, fortunately I have the gray poles as a layer so I can switch easily.

Question about speeds. It is possible to have minimum speed sign that prohibits slow vehicles entering the road. I have prepared signs for 30/50/80 km/h and combined signs for motorways - one-way + min-speed at 50/80. In Czechoslovakia you were not allowed to use motorway if your car couldn't go 50 km/h (nowadays it is 80 km/h). Is there any such rule in Scandinavia? What speed is (was) the limit.

Offline Ves

Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2014, 07:03:43 AM »
Sorry I was a bit unclear writing my last post:
I meant that I have tried make signs on normal streetcrossings (not railway/streetcrossings). The rail/streetcrossings are the remaining parts of the old raised track, and I should fix that as fast as possible to get a pleasant look!

About signs at speed changes, I don't think it practically will work either. It's just a thought I've been playing around with :)

The question whether your signs will look good on top an automatic sign, I'm sure it will be easy to adjust both signs so they either appear both at the same time, or one overlapping the other.

I know that already built graphics can not change appearance, my thought was that maybe 1950 or something, all signs retire and new signs with the lighter grey pole are available. When being put next to each other,  the new one will look like it's very fresh compare to the other.

I currently don't know what the lower speed limit is on any countries motorway, but that would be programmed in the motorway sign?
I always found those minimum speed signs in pak128 a bit odd since (at least in Denmark, Sweden and Norway) they don't exist what I know. It is a problem not really appearing in real life that cars go too slow, rather the opposite cars going too fast! :P

Maybe a restricted speed sign (red and yellow)? Coded (if possible) like you can't go over the speed on the sign and the minimum speed is set to 10km/h under the limit? I real world, if I want to drive slowly, I wouldn't take a 90-road :P

What do you think?

Offline Junna

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2014, 11:35:06 AM »
I always found those minimum speed signs in pak128 a bit odd since (at least in Denmark, Sweden and Norway) they don't exist what I know. It is a problem not really appearing in real life that cars go too slow, rather the opposite cars going too fast! :P

This is part of the motorway traffic regulation, though not stated separately by signs; I think traffic not able to travel at least 60km/h is barred, and so are mopeds, cycles, pedestrians, animals etc. Those are things that are implied by a motorway restriction sign on its own! One would have to read the traffic law to see those details, however.

Offline Vladki

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2014, 12:31:15 PM »
Even though we (CZ) have the minimum speed sign in the rules, I have not seen it in real life. However similar role is played by signs forbidding tractors, horses, bikes, etc. So I can make the minimum sign to be something like "tractors forbidden", but the size is so small, that the tractor will be just a blackish blob on the sign. I think that having a sign with 90 displayed and enforcing 80 as minimum would confuse players. Either it should be the same speed and the meaning reversed - picture of max speed sign, but implemented as min-speed, or just omit the number at all and pretend it is a tractor on the sign.

Highway sign (in real life) is a combination of implicit min and max speed sign. The question is what are those speeds in nordic countries. I failed to find the minimum (and someteimes even the maximum seems to be vaguely defined). Higway sign (in simutrans) is a combination of min speed and one-way.

Road speeds - I think they should reflect implicit speed limits that are in place without explicit max-speed signs. From what I have found on net it is mostly 50 in town, 80 outside and 100/110/120 on highway (depends on country). Locals - please confirm. The other thing is to have some reasonably spaced selection of roads to choose from, and maybe even some historical aspect - quality improved, rules had changed. For starters I would suggest road speeds 20/50/80/110.

Implicit road signs - please share the source of the give-way sign, I'll try to play with it to match mine. There are basically two options - either show them both, or cover the implicit sign completely. And I gon an idea for another nice implicit road sign - warning sing at 90-degree turns.

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2014, 06:55:32 PM »
About the building scales, Fabio has explained some of his principles in this thread:

http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=13352

Not that I thought you missed it, but now there is a reference to it in here. ;)

Offline Ves

Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #85 on: February 25, 2014, 08:49:31 AM »
I have now uploaded the sources for the rail and road, I have also uploaded the raw file for the rails. Play around there if you want and create different types of tracks :) I have implemented the crossing to that so it automatically generates new crossing graphic (Which now should be aligned). I made three graphics with crossings, just pack the crossing_1.dat. If you want to create more crossings, play with the .xcf-file (use it in GIMP)

I did not have time yesterday (were drawing crossings ;) ) to look over the signs again to check if they Are ok but they should be ok.

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2014, 03:24:46 PM »
Sorry to trippelpost, but regarding signs (skyltar.png)
There are many possible signs to use for the ways to place by itself. You mention the 90 degree sign to sharp turns, then there is the stop sign as a variation to give way sign (present in skyltar.png). Now we are really talking eye candy, but in Sweden there are almost always new signs after an intersection, mostly a speed sign and also a "main road" sign (a yellow square on diagonal) if the road is a such. Also there are usually blue (for country roads) destination signs telling how far to next town.  the foot walker sign for the city roads where there is a foot walk crossing the street (present in intersections).
When it is a sharp turn on the faster roads, there usually also are blue/yellow arrows on the outside of the turn. Bridges could have a "windsock" sign defined on the end tiles of the bridge, and maybe if possible tunnels could have a tunnel sign at the tunnel entrances.

Signs for the player to use, the dilemma with minimum speed signs, I don't know which option to choose so it's easy to understand with the most pleasing look.
Maximum speed signs (round red and yellow) which also acts as minimum speed signs?
Fictual minimum speed signs which for instance are blue?
Vladkis suggestion with painting for instance a tractor (or more correctly a "blobb") in a warning sign, respectively a motorway sign?

Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2014, 06:05:12 PM »
If you wonder why I got silent, it is because I'm trying to write the first draft of a Design Document and at the same time capture this discussion into it :P

However I really like the idea of automatic signs incorporated into the road tiles. When Sweden standardized the roads, we where at a good 2th place behind Germany when it came to standards :D There are many signs that actually can be incorporated into the roads thank to this.

EU members have basically one speed limit sign for every 10th Km/h. and can be categorised in 3 groups;

  • In a city you can find from 10 - 60 km/h.
  • A country road (including express way) span from 70 - 90 km/h.
  • Highways span from 100 - 120 km/h.

With each group comes a set of signs that can be incorporated into the road tile. There are also some combination that should be restricted, for example, a highway can't cross a track of any sort or have any intersections.

Some smaller bridges can have some signs incorporated into the bridge road tile, such as Priority for oncoming vehicles, Road narrows to mention a few.

The Built-up area and End of built-up area can be placed at the city borders (disregard the fact that it might be another road than a city road because these signs also means speed limit 50 Km/h).

There are quite many signs that can be incorporated with the road tiles in the current  Simutrans version and even more if I try to add some more functions to Simutrans.

Regarding pedestrian crossings, I did try to incorporate them as well into my road tiles, together with he give way sign, but there was just not enough space. I suggest this can be an overlay to be placed manually on city roads.

Don't forget that I have been poking around in the Simutrans code a bit (mostly GUI stuff), so maybe I can try to add some code to achieve effects, not present in the current version. The first thing I come to think of is to have roads signs automatically added when the road speed changes ;)

PS. Here are all the Swedish signs in English.
- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Vladki

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2014, 08:53:06 PM »
The problem with automatic signs is that they do not have context. That means we can include only those that are specific for the given tile, without regard to surroundings. And that means only T - junctions (give way), and 90-degree bend (some arrows). However these are purely eye candy and have no function. Cars happily ignore the give way sign. However IIRC in experimental you can specify max speed in curves, so a max speed sign could be used and it will be not only eye candy but also an information for the player.

If context is available, then max speed signs would be possible - on the border of different roads, or a "steep hill" sing before high slope...

I found the wikipedia site with signs, but did not find answers to my previous questions.

I have found a page in swedish http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vägmärken_i_Sverige but I'm not sure if I understood correctly that the first roadsings were specified by law in 1931, and that the first signs for higway were blue instead of current green. But I could not find when the color switch happened. It could be useful to have e.g. blue sign (min-50), green sign (min-80). I have set the intro_year to most of the sings with white pole to 1931, motorway sings to 1953 and grey pole to 1991.  I wanted to put the sources on FTP but I can't connect. You can find the stuff here: https://uran.webstep.net/~vladki/simutrans/pak128.Sweden/roadsign/ The motorway sign I used finally is taken from pak.cz and recoloured to green. It looks better than downscaled swedish design.

Question about private road barrier. Do you prefer a player coloured barrier as in pak.britain, or a red-yellow stripes with no-entry sign, and perhaps a tool/customs house like i did for pak.cz?

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #89 on: February 25, 2014, 09:20:11 PM »
How is it going with your document? :)


I have remade the crossings again. I realized that underneeth the crossingtexture, the normal road and track are lying just on top of each other. Luckily the tracks are the top part of the two, so I realized that if I just took the road with symbols etcetc and cuttet out the places where the rail should be visible, then I would get exactly correct railcolor, ballastcolor, with of the ballast etc. So now there actually only is one crossing needed, maybe two, for the sake of a wider road :)

The new crossings are lying on dropbox, also the sources.
I realy wanted to show a screenshoot of that, but my stupid computer still has very big problems with the internet. I can load different simutrans website and a newspaper, but not hotmail or wordpress where I usually put my pictures!  :redx: The screenshoot is instead in the dropbox folder :)

edit:Dropbox-folder

Ok. The actual world is tending to run faster and faster, so I guess that this should be applied in our pak regarding speeds on the ways. During the years cars have been safer and roads have been upgraded again and again to handle greater speed.

As standard speeds could these be accepted?:

Inside townborders = 50kmh
Old/standard cheap countryroad = 70 kmh
Bigger road, more expensive, but allows for greater speed = 90 kmh

Bigger road becomes obsolete and is replaced with a new 90 kmh graphic, now with some collision dampers. Getting more expensive.
Motorway with collision dampers, *some way to force people to build two lanes?* = 110 kmh

New standard countryroad obsoletting the old = 80 kmh
Bigger road is obsoletting againg and is now replaced by = 100kmh

The motorway is being obsolete and a new one with even higher security (even more expensive!) has a speed of = 120 kmh


I think it might get too fiddly when you get to choose between 10kmh intervalls. If you have all the intervalls, which one to choose if they dont get other specialities (such as max weight or axelload although I know nothing particular about that)?

With the above, you would have between two but mostly three ways to choose from ( + some dirt roads) where you easy can notice the difference between the waytypes.
What do you think?


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Don't forget that I have been poking around in the Simutrans code a bit (mostly GUI stuff), so maybe I can try to add some code to achieve effects, not present in the current version. The first thing I come to think of is to have roads signs automatically added when the road speed changes ;)

Now this would be very very cool! Do you think it would be probable to define a way-thing like "crossing", but with two different waytypes connecting? Then one could paint a nice transition!

Yes you are right that most of such signs would be just eyecandy. Also there might be a danger that signs are eventually confusing players. But also I think it could be interesting if signs could be there to remind, just as in reality, for instance i you build a bridge out of poor quality, with eg lowered weight as a result than the conventional road, there would come two signs on each end. The signs would show max weight (although you can only see a blob) reminding the player that something is special with that bridge. So if the player wants to be shure, player has to route his trucks over 'unsigned' bridges :p

Also because of my poor internet, I cannot load your page with the signs  ::( . I have to try again tomorrow.....
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 09:37:05 PM by Ves »

Offline Vladki

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2014, 10:17:47 PM »
I have fiddled a bit with Skyltar.png and redrawn the give way sign so it has the same position, height and size as other signs. In optimal case it will be completely covered by player placed signs, but there is some funny graphical glitch that makes it sometimes appear in front of the sign. It happens in standard as well as in experimental, try different zooms and rotations and see the effect. Sources are on my web.

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #91 on: February 25, 2014, 11:12:45 PM »
I looked on your signs from my phone and I'm very impressed with especially the motorway signs! They really look like miniature motorway signs!

Regarding the right of way sign it's also much nicer than my initial sign, however are the proportions of the sign right? It feels like it became very 'flat', I guess this is to make it hide able behind the other signs? Maybe it is possible to adjust it so it becomes a little 'thinner'?

I will try them in game tomorrow! :)

Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #92 on: February 26, 2014, 12:37:45 AM »
I have found a page in swedish http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vägmärken_i_Sverige but I'm not sure if I understood correctly that the first roadsings were specified by law in 1931, and that the first signs for higway were blue instead of current green. But I could not find when the color switch happened. It could be useful to have e.g. blue sign (min-50), green sign (min-80). I have set the intro_year to most of the sings with white pole to 1931, motorway sings to 1953 and grey pole to 1991.  I wanted to put the sources on FTP but I can't connect. You can find the stuff here: https://uran.webstep.net/~vladki/simutrans/pak128.Sweden/roadsign/ The motorway sign I used finally is taken from pak.cz and recoloured to green. It looks better than downscaled swedish design.

The transition from the blue highway sign tot he green one started 1978 and not until 1990 all signs had been replaced.

History.
Before 1916 Sweden didn't have any signs other than "mil" (10km) stones and some simpler signs to taverns along the road. 1916 One sign was designed; a triangular white sign with a red border. Under the sign on a separate board, information was written in plain text. But already in 1909 A serie of round prohibitory signs was decided as the first european standard. 1931 came the first limited standard for traffic signs in Sweden. At this point the european standard had incorporated the Swedish triangle shaped sign for a series of warning signs. Sweden adopted the european standard and the 6+2+1 signs became yellow with a red border.

Page and sign numbers are from the original 1931 Specification (in Swedish).

Direction signs (page 506), Yellow background with border and text in Black.
Warning Uneven road (1)
Warning Dangerous bend (2)
Warning Junction with a road (3)
Warning Level crossing with gates (4)
Warning Level crossing without gates (5)
Warning Other dangers (6)
2 traffic direction signs (page 509)
Color definition (page 509)
A font type was designed specially for the Swedish road signs (page 507) and can be downloaded as a font for Windows, Mac and Linux here.

1923 a special tax was introduced to improve the roads and the road network formerly exploded with not only new roads laid in stone, but also the earlier mud roads converted as well.

1935 was the pole painted in the same color as the road sign, Yellow/red for warning and  prohibitory signs. Black/Yellow for the other.

1937 came an update and some new signs (SFS1937:44); Priority road signs, Built-up area and End of built-up area was introduced. The two later signs didn't set the speed, but prohibited high speed and use of the horn.

1953 opened Sweden's first highway (11 Km)

1951 came next update for the road signs (SFS1951). Built-up area and End of built-up area was removed.

1952 All poles are painted gray.

1955 New update. Warning for Animal and the speed limit signs.

1961 (SFS1961:602)

1964 All poles are in their "natural color" (not painted).

1966 (SFS1966)

1967 Sweden switch to Right side traffic.

1970 110Km/h on highways.

1979 (SFS1978:1001)

I found these blueprints for some Steam Engines...
- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #93 on: February 26, 2014, 04:00:43 AM »
I have put a lot of reference material on the server :P
- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Junna

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #94 on: February 26, 2014, 03:01:17 PM »
What server is that?

Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #95 on: February 26, 2014, 03:32:45 PM »
;)

Welcome back Junna :)

...I have have put up a temporary FTP server (until I have renovated a little better server) for the development so we can share our work without public publicity. You will need a private login and password, let me know if you need one.

I will send you a login in PM.
- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #96 on: February 26, 2014, 06:16:59 PM »
So I got a bit carried away and thought I should try to draw a wagon (Litt Gs).

- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #97 on: February 26, 2014, 07:03:27 PM »
This is impressive!  :o Too bad its not a 3d simutransengine! So many details! Can you make it fit in size and light to the existing graffics? Would be awesome to see it ingame! I hope that my vehicles are able to match up the quality to this!  :o


I have still had problems with my internetconnection and Im away again and will be back to my computer on saturday. I have this time brought my harddisk with me, but im not able to install the file-zilla-program on the computer im using for the moment. I hope that the internet at my home are fixed till I get back, so I can download the needed programs and start uploading to the server.

At least I now could open wordpress and upload my picture of the crossing:

But in the meantime when I could not upload the picture, I improved it by adding a signal for the trains. Its not on the screenshoot but the files are in the dropboxfolder if you want to see it before saturday.
Notice that the rails is visible through the street and therefore will change color if you shift to some other rails. Notice also the improved malm-car on the edge. Only the 'even' directions are painted and I dont know if it should be that car or something else. It is not really correct in size and shape and it would be interesting if maxmax (or someone else) did a blendermodel of it *hinthint, notchnothc* ;)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 07:12:30 PM by Ves »

Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #98 on: February 26, 2014, 07:56:03 PM »
This is impressive!  :o Too bad its not a 3d simutransengine! So many details! Can you make it fit in size and light to the existing graffics? Would be awesome to see it ingame! I hope that my vehicles are able to match up the quality to this!  :o

I made it in SketchUp 2013 Pro wich I find a lot faster to make technical models compared to Blender. I tried to import it into Blender but the cleanup process was just to much to be an effective way to work.

I will try to find a workflow for Blender instead. Fortunately it seems like the Swedish wagons was built á la Ikea style. There is a base structure and then only swap in/attach different elements/features.

I love your crossings, very authentic. In the reference material you should find an early specification for crossings.
- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #99 on: February 27, 2014, 06:54:39 PM »
While I was browsing through a ton of wagon specifications I got some interesting ideas that has never been implemented in any pack I know of. There are a bunch specialized wagons and I started to think how we can use them in Simutrans.

Transport of prisoners.
A court house or police station can be coded as a city industry producing prisoners. The prisoner transport wagons can be used to transport these to a jail somewhere. The Jail will consume prisoners and food to produce citizens back to the court house/police station.

Military material.
There are a number of military fitted wagons for canons and troops. During WW1 and WW2 (and only during this time) Bofors can deliver canons and military material to Mob storage facilities (consuming them). Bofors would of course need SKF, Volvo, Ericsson and LKAB (steel).

Comfort.
There are a number of wagons for pure passenger comfort, such as sleep wagons, Restaurant wagons, Steam boiler (for heat), Power distribution for electric light. I was thinking how we could put these into play. So I figured that if a passenger train is equipped with these wagons, the profit will increase slightly because the ticket price can be higher, or extra income from the restaurant waggon. This would of course need some extra coding, but would also add a new dimension to it.

Transporting materials for buildings.
Assume the following scenario. You build a power station but instead of building it right away, a construction site is build as an industry. It needs to consume a certain amount of goods before it turns into the real power plant, by replacing itself. This will make use of our transformer wagons :) but would need some coding to work.

Just some thoughts...
- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Junna

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #100 on: February 28, 2014, 12:18:03 AM »
Comfort.
There are a number of wagons for pure passenger comfort, such as sleep wagons, Restaurant wagons, Steam boiler (for heat), Power distribution for electric light. I was thinking how we could put these into play. So I figured that if a passenger train is equipped with these wagons, the profit will increase slightly because the ticket price can be higher, or extra income from the restaurant waggon. This would of course need some extra coding, but would also add a new dimension to it.

This is exactly what the existing comfort code for Experimental does, increases the revenue.

Offline Ves

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #101 on: February 28, 2014, 12:46:22 PM »
The special cars are quite interresting. I had already thought of transformertransport car, although I also had in mind that there would be a 'foreign country' industry, which would grab these kind of stuff.

Can you code it so that a new industry needs a certain amount of 'something'', (this also goes with for instance betong and wood) in order to be build? A challenge to make it detailed enough without creating too much micromanagement (one needs to build rail/roads, create vehicles, find from where the goods come from, setting up probably multiple shedules....) which you know only are beeing used in a preset time.

interresting with the military transports during ww1 and ww2! Industries in experiemental can both open new ones and close existing ones, so it should be possible!

I also saw the prisoners car in the documents! well why not? :)

But regarding goods transport, modern trains have a loading-sheet, telling how much it can load, when going faster or slower and how much STAX (axelpressure STAX18=18t axleload) it will create.
Example:

A (STAX16)B (STAX18)C STAX20)
70 kmhMaxloadMaxloadMaxload
90 kmhMaxloadMaxloadMaxload
S (100kmh)MaxloadMaxloadMaxload
SS (120kmh)MaxloadMaxloadMaxload

How would you suggest to make any use of this?


regarding the comfort, Junna already explained that this is present in Experiemental (one of the reasons i like that branch ;) ) however Im actually not sure how it works.

If I have 2 trains, one with 100 comfort, one with 50, how is the calculated comfort? is it like this, that the people sitting in the 100 comfort car actually gets a higher comfort, or are the two comforts evened out, so both cars get 75 comfort?
Ive heard that the restaurant car will give a bonus to the entire train, how much is that?

I also thought about sleep cars. Many of the 40-generation cars have been rebuilt to sleepcars so that would be just natural to include them if we once will create sleepcars. however, I fail to find a way that these will work side by side with the other cars, and not just be a better car, making the player only build sleepcars.
In the real world, sleep-cars are only used to create higher comforts at night. In the daytime they would be parked at the yard, or some convertible ones will have their beds convertet to coupees with maybe 6-8 persons. None of this is acheavable in Simutrans, what im aware of. Do you have any ideas? :)

But if you have not seen the comforts in action, try pak.britain-Ex :)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 03:08:35 PM by Ves »

Offline Max-Max

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #102 on: February 28, 2014, 10:03:56 PM »
I have mostly played the Standard edition since I was developing a theme feature for the GUI.
So you guys are saying we should do the pack for the experimental version? or should we start with the Standard and then add features for the experimental so it will work with both?

I have not poked around in that area of the code, but that was what I had in mind, to be able to set a quota to fill and when it is done trigg some action, such as replacing itself, or simply remove itself. However I don't know if this will be accepted by Jamespet or Prissi since it isn't in the "Simutrans spirit" to micromanage anything at all. I got quite burned in the theme project and if it requires too many hours of coding there is no point to do it because in the end all of it may be refused or just rewritten to unrecognition.

I do love trains but I have to confess that I don't care that much of authenticity. I'm just happy to play with trains and build signal systems ;D I know Jamespet is very keen on authenticity so stuff like axel pressure is definitely in the spirit of Experimental. Maybe Jamespet would be interested in implementing this?

I had no idea Comfort already was a part of Experimental  :thumbsup:
The sleeping wagon could be implemented in a way where they simply generated more revenue (get an extra bonus) when they are used during the night. To balance it, they might have a lower capacity and generate less than a normal wagon during the day, while they would catch up and generate more than a normal wagon during night time.

Maybe I should have a look at experimental again. It didn't catch my interest since my favorite pak was Comic, but now when we develop a nordic it should be the best pak :D

- My code doesn't have bugs. It develops random features...

Offline Yona-TYT

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #103 on: March 01, 2014, 12:05:07 AM »
Also this "Simutrans Iron-Bite". Maybe your project is more acceptable there for Hajo. :thumbsup:

Offline Junna

Re: Pak.Sweden....!
« Reply #104 on: March 01, 2014, 01:22:47 AM »
I also thought about sleep cars. Many of the 40-generation cars have been rebuilt to sleepcars so that would be just natural to include them if we once will create sleepcars. however, I fail to find a way that these will work side by side with the other cars, and not just be a better car, making the player only build sleepcars.
In the real world, sleep-cars are only used to create higher comforts at night. In the daytime they would be parked at the yard, or some convertible ones will have their beds convertet to coupees with maybe 6-8 persons. None of this is acheavable in Simutrans, what im aware of. Do you have any ideas? :)

There's a simple reason that sleeper carriages would not be superior to regular carriages, particularly on heavy load services: they have a very low capacity due to their nature. Now, the game doesn't take into account time of day and variable loads, but over very long distances loading will generally be less - it will be interesting to see how with the new distance-based generation this will turn out - and overall sleepers would be preferable on very long few-stop services due to their low capacity and simultaneous high revenue.