Author Topic: Pipelines  (Read 35206 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Banksie_82

Pipelines
« on: February 02, 2009, 03:06:11 AM »
I’m sorry if this topic is in the wrong section of the forum, but I simply don’t know if it’s a part of the engine or the pak sets, but I’m sure someone will let me know.

My day job is a civil engineer, so I love this game. Although, I don’t specialise in rail or roads/transport, I’m a hydraulics engineer, that is, dams, flood control, water quality and also… pipe lines.

My idea is for a whole new way type, as well as the possibility of industry chains to go with it. I would like to see pipe lines be able to transport large quantities of liquids and gasses. I mainly had in mind water, oil and natural gas and “gas”/petroleum.

In real life, water is needed for thermal power stations as well as agriculture, steel production and others. It seems reasonable that they should also need it in simutrans. Also main oil routes are often conveyed by pipelines across entire countries. (I play pak 128)

I had in mind that they would be more expensive compared to trains unless there is quite a large quantity flowing through. However, water for example would always be needed in large quantities.

The pipe lines should have pumps on them to make the liquid flow faster, more pumps for the further distance or if you are going up hill, and less if you are going downhill, or even none if it steep enough to be “gravity feed”.

I have no idea about programming (or at least not what ever language simutrans is written in) but I’m more than happy to give advice on the realism of the maths and believable values. But it could be as simple as…

1 pump @ 20km flat = 100m3/(what ever)
1 pump @ 40km flat = 50m3/(what ever)
2 pump @ 40km flat = 100m3/(whatever)

And variations there of, a drop in the Z axis could be the equivalent to having a pump (gravity fed), a rise could need a pump but add nothing to the flow rate. Of course the numbers could be played around with to fit nicely with the rest of the game.

In my ideal world you would also be able to chose the pipe and pump size with a more realistic variation in the flows than shown above. You should be able to have branches off it, but that may be getting too complicated to program. Also you shouldn’t be able to mix the liquids in the same network, that’s just silly.

What do people think, is this possible, or is it just a “pipe dream”?

P.s. I assume very simular program would be required for “conveyor belts”. These could be used for bulk goods as they are in real life, sometimes for a hundred kilometres (Fosbucraa conveyor belt, Sahara Desert). But it would be good for two coal mines for example, servicing the same factory, reasonably close together but too far for the one station. One of the mines simply has a conveyor belt transferring the coal to the waiting train.

Offline emaxectranspoorte

Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2009, 07:57:16 AM »
Great! Cool! 8)

10 out of 10!

Offline Ashley

Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2009, 08:21:43 AM »
I believe this has been suggested before, indeed the graphics and some code actually exist for pak64, and this would likely operate in a similar way to power lines. I can't remember why it was denied before however, but the proposal definitely has my support, would be extremely useful in some situations for transporting oil long distances.

Incidentally, the idea of conveyor belts could be implemented using station extension buildings designed to look like a conveyor, and then placed in such a way that they extend the coverage of the station to encompass both of your closely spaced coal plants.
Use Firefox? Interested in IPv6? Try SixOrNot the IPv6 status indicator for Firefox.
Why not try playing Simutrans online? See the Game Servers board for details.

Offline Fabio

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2898
  • Total likes: 5
  • Helpful: 91
  • The Pak128 Guy
    • Visit me on Facebook
  • Languages: EN, IT, RO, FR
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2009, 08:46:21 AM »
i support this extension either. it would be be useful, IMO, specially for oil power stations or oil refineries A FEW TILES from the coast, where the station can't let oil huge tankers get closer, yet a train line wouldn't be economical.

It was in Hajo's original ideas, so it could go at least in experimental simutrans. the cost of the way should be MUCH higher (to lie down a pipeline AND maintainance costs) but the transport itself should be much cheaper. This way the player could choose between a higher investment paying in mid/long term (pipelines) and cheaper railway with less revenue. I wanted to ask this extension, BTW. Maybe some patchers could be interested (like it happened with rivers) in something which is partly there, already.

Offline prissi

  • Developer
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 8656
  • Total likes: 283
  • Helpful: 226
  • Languages: De,EN,JP
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2009, 09:58:38 AM »
It was/is denied because simutrans is about transportation networks, not making money by building infrastructure mostly.

Offline Combuijs

  • Web Team
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 1379
  • Total likes: 20
  • Helpful: 53
  • Maintainer of maps.simutrans.com
    • Combuijs
  • Languages: EN, NL
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2009, 10:01:44 AM »
Problem for me is: what fun is there in playing with pipelines? Of course it adds realism, but what does it add to gameplay? I mean, nothing is moving visibly, isn't it?
Bob Marley: No woman, no cry

Programmer: No user, no bugs



Offline emaxectranspoorte

Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2009, 10:09:00 AM »
Sorry...

What about water?

Offline DirrrtyDirk

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 1253
  • Total likes: 1
  • Helpful: 11
  • JR 700 Series Shinkansen
  • Languages: EN,DE
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2009, 10:14:13 AM »
Water is not really needed in simutrans as of yet.

Remember, this is a transportation game. Not a city simulator and also not really a civil engineering game (as prissi pointed out).  And I also agree with Combuijs - pipelines instead of trains & trucks may be more realistic in some cases - but they'd also be simply boring IMHO.
  
***** PAK128 Dev Team - semi-retired*****

Offline emaxectranspoorte

Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2009, 10:17:40 AM »
Thanks GOD for our diversity!

It looks like you are saying some people's breath is not really worth it.

Is that so?

Offline Combuijs

  • Web Team
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 1379
  • Total likes: 20
  • Helpful: 53
  • Maintainer of maps.simutrans.com
    • Combuijs
  • Languages: EN, NL
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2009, 10:33:04 AM »
Quote
Problem for me is
Quote
It looks like you are saying some people's breath is not really worth it.

I'm telling you my personal opinion, you are telling yours. DirrrtyDirk, Prissi and me are telling why they don't like it, Banksie, Timothy and Fabio are telling why they like it. That's no waste of breath, it should lead to a useful discussion based on arguments why this feature should or should not be in the game.

And as for 2050: pipelines transporting breath might be realistic.  ;D
Bob Marley: No woman, no cry

Programmer: No user, no bugs



Offline Fabio

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2898
  • Total likes: 5
  • Helpful: 91
  • The Pak128 Guy
    • Visit me on Facebook
  • Languages: EN, IT, RO, FR
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 10:38:54 AM »
what does it add to gameplay?

it can be used to connect a harbour with an power plant/refinery only 6/10 tiles apart (would you make a trucks line there? now probably yes, but tens of truck tanks one behind the other is not very realistic/nice to see, nobody would do like this in RL!!!), it can be used to transfer oil from a harbour to a near train station, where it can be shipped by train (same as above), it can be used when oilfield and refinery are only 6/8 tiles apart. It's cost should be VERY HIGH (as in RL) so that it won't be economical if longer than 10/15 tiles.

Anyway, i'd like to hear James Petts, maybe he's interested for experimental (so, NOT for the trunk)

Offline Stubbsy

Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 10:48:09 AM »
Just a quick thought, would you be able to use the same sort of coding as Powerlines and powerstations, to code the piplines?

Offline Combuijs

  • Web Team
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 1379
  • Total likes: 20
  • Helpful: 53
  • Maintainer of maps.simutrans.com
    • Combuijs
  • Languages: EN, NL
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2009, 10:54:52 AM »
Quote
would you make a trucks line there?
Trucks, Trains, Canal with ships (or just a station long enough to connect both refinery and dock  :D). In cities I've used underground trains when overground trucks could not do the job.

Quote
It's cost should be VERY HIGH (as in RL) so that it won't be economical if longer than 10/15 tiles.

But that's not realistic, isn't it? I mean, I don't know exactly what Russia and Ukraine are quarrelling about, but at least the gas pipelines involved are economical viable and more than 1000 kms long.
Bob Marley: No woman, no cry

Programmer: No user, no bugs



Offline IgorEliezer

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 3913
  • Total likes: 117
  • Helpful: 68
  • Minister of Silly Posts
    • Igor Eliezer Architect and Urban Planner/Arquiteto e Urbanista
  • Languages: PT, EN, AutoLISP, Python
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2009, 10:55:51 AM »
If pipelines don't add anything to gameplay, then why we keep powerlines?

In logistic and urban planning, ducts are considered a mean of transport, yes, and they play a role in transport network although via and vehicle are the same object: the duct.

Simutrans would be really boring if we use pipelines everywhere. But this situation will never happen.

As far as I know, coal power stations and some industries need water to work. Today in Simutrans such factories consume water from somewhere I don't know, probably from underground.... ;D

Offline Fabio

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2898
  • Total likes: 5
  • Helpful: 91
  • The Pak128 Guy
    • Visit me on Facebook
  • Languages: EN, IT, RO, FR
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2009, 11:10:46 AM »
Simutrans would be really boring if we use pipelines everywhere. But this situation will never happen.

good point!
it's up to the packset, to make them uneconomical for long routes and economical for small/medium. moreover, it's up to the common sense of the player, to use them in a interesting (== not boring) way. there are a lot of things you could build in simutrans to make it boring, it's common sense to avoid it (and if the top of the fun for a player would be to transport everything with pipelines, why to forbid him? :P)

Offline vilvoh

  • One of the good guys
  • Administrator (Inactive)
  • *
  • Posts: 4504
  • Total likes: 0
  • Helpful: 14
  • I'm the constructor, the architect
    • Escala real
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2009, 11:17:14 AM »
If pipelines don't add anything to gameplay, then why we keep powerlines?

Well, powerlines case is different. They actually don't affect to gameplay, but they enhance it, stimulating industries consuption and production. In case of pipelines, they may affect to the basics (transport vehicles) anyway I'm not against it. If it can be easily implemented, as rivers, why not? I'm sure that Simutrans has a lot of features some players usually ignore.

Today in Simutrans such factories consume water from somewhere I don't know, probably from underground.... ;D

I guess atm they get the water from rivers.... ::)

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

Offline emaxectranspoorte

Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2009, 11:29:02 AM »
And as for 2050: pipelines transporting breath might be realistic.  ;D

That's cool, because I consider water the breath of our habitat!

Offline VS

  • Senior Plumber (Devotee)
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 4849
  • Total likes: 23
  • Helpful: 63
  • Vladimír Slávik
    • VS's Simutrans site
  • Languages: CS,EN
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2009, 12:50:42 PM »
I think some difficulties would arise in the part where conveyors and pipes can transport only one type of goods and in one direction.

Ways in Simutrans are non-directional edges of a graph, where vehicles move, and ways themselves do not affect at all transported freight. The difference from how things in Simu worked so far is quite big, it might be rather challenging to come up with some reasonable compromise. Making these new types of transport fit the current model well... dunno. It would probably require something fundamentally different.

What I'm talking about is the underlying model. Graphics are not important at this moment. How do you make it work?

To give a select few issues that must be addressed in some way: How do you choose direction of the line? How do you select which kind of goods is transported? Can the line alternate between different goods, and how? What about crossings? If two pipes meet, how do you make them not connect but go on? I'd like to hear what can be said about this.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but powerlines are in a sense not a way at all, just global storages iirc... There the model is also very different from normal ways. And the solution there was simple - electricity travels at speed of light, so these pylons built in game are just a means of creating a connection, so that factories and power plants are connected to the same power counter. No vehicles at all.

My projects... Tools for messing with Simutrans graphics. Graphic archive - templates and some other stuff for painters. Development logs for most recent information on what is going on. And of course pak128!

Offline Fabio

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2898
  • Total likes: 5
  • Helpful: 91
  • The Pak128 Guy
    • Visit me on Facebook
  • Languages: EN, IT, RO, FR
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2009, 01:58:40 PM »
Some thoughts

And the solution there was simple - electricity travels at speed of light, so these pylons built in game are just a means of creating a connection, so that factories and power plants are connected to the same power counter. No vehicles at all.

The same assumption could be done for oil/gas/water pipelines. If they are under pressure (as they often are in RL), every time you get 1 cubic metre of fluid, another one goes into the pipes. For business reason, we can assume 1 m^3 of fluid enters-1 m^3 of fluid exits. The amount of fluid to put the pipeline under pressure can be not calculated, it's not important for gameplay.


How do you choose direction of the line?

One (or more) filling stations and one or more exit stations


How do you select which kind of goods is transported?

Probably in the pak itself, e.g.
Code: [Select]
waytipe=pipe
goods=oil


If two pipes meet, how do you make them not connect but go on? I'd like to hear what can be said about this.
They will connect - if the good type is the same. If it's different, they won't connect
To cross them (or to cross them with a road or a railway) they can use either bridges, either tunnels.

Offline DirrrtyDirk

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 1253
  • Total likes: 1
  • Helpful: 11
  • JR 700 Series Shinkansen
  • Languages: EN,DE
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2009, 04:56:19 PM »
As for the comparison between pipelines and powerlines:

The biggest difference is in my eyes, that powerlines do not transport any "good". What they "transport" isn't essential to any production chain - it's just a bonus gadget to increase overall production. It is not necessary to have for any factory to work. And those powerlines are actually doing a job that no vehicle can do.

All of that is supposed to different for pipelines. So, my (personal) conclusion: those two should not be compared as they are entirely different.


Ok now back to the issue itself.

I agree that pipelines would probably be both useful and realistic to have. But for me (and I think for many others as well) the fun in simutrans is not from having the factories working as a goal of itself - it's having your vehicles transport everything to and from those factories and cities. I just don't see any of this fun in having a pipeline (as useful as they might be) just pumping things from A to B. (Compared to a nice vehicle network doing its dance, it is really rather boring IMO). After all we're talking about a game here - and games are all about fun and enjoyment. And just because something is useful in real life (and might also be useful in game), it doesn't mean that it's really good for the (fun of the) game.
However, the scenario that fabio came up with (about connecting only small distances, where vehicles wouldn't really fit in) has some merit. And I agree that, should pipelines come, they should be very expensive to build (to discourage people from using them on long distances - for reasons of gameplay and fun, despite of maybe being unrealistic) and I think they should have a fairly high maintenance, too (allowing them only rather small profits, so that vehicle should stay the primary choice, pipelines only secondary).

On a more philosphical - and personal - note at the end: I imagine the player's company to be more like ... FedEx, DHL, Deutsche Bahn, JR Group, etc.... not Gazprom or Eon, etc. In other words: just a transport and logistics and/or trucking and/or railway company - not a mayor's office, not a production industry, no civil services, etc... I hope one can understand what I mean. And on that point, I (personally) would probably restrict pipelines (if they ever come) to be only possible to be built by the "joker" player - the public hand (And to stay in this philosophy, the same would of course be true for powerlines as well - here they are actually the same  ;)).
  
***** PAK128 Dev Team - semi-retired*****

Offline emaxectranspoorte

Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2009, 06:02:54 PM »
As far as I can see Banksie_82's dream will only be a "pipe dream", only because doesn't fit in the fun of this game.

Offline DirrrtyDirk

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 1253
  • Total likes: 1
  • Helpful: 11
  • JR 700 Series Shinkansen
  • Languages: EN,DE
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2009, 06:54:57 PM »
Dude, is it so hard for you to accept that I have the right to express my personal opinion here - not a decision or ruling! (for that is neither in my powers nor my intention) - on this matter just like anybody else? And that I do so by explaining my thoughts on this issue in detail, so that people can debate the these things further, rather than only cry out "in favor" or "against" in (meaningless) one-line postings, like you do... well, I don't think I really have to defend myself for that. If you can't come up with more than that, don't blame me just because I can for "my side", ok?
  
***** PAK128 Dev Team - semi-retired*****

Offline Ashley

Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2009, 10:35:14 PM »
On the subject of connecting together factories which are very close to each other (e.g. less than 10 tiles) you can simply build a station which spans the gap between them. Goods will then be automatically moved from one to the other - though in this case you dont get any money for doing so, it can be more economical to do this in order to feed another stage of the production chain than loss-making trucks.

I am sure some enterprising individual could come up with graphics that resemble a conveyor belt to do this... ;)
Use Firefox? Interested in IPv6? Try SixOrNot the IPv6 status indicator for Firefox.
Why not try playing Simutrans online? See the Game Servers board for details.

Offline isidoro

Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2009, 10:37:07 PM »
Relax, guys.  This is a game.  It is supposed to be fun...

I can see pipes influencing game play:
  • Just as power lines do, they will occupy space.  That space can conflict with place for building roads, stations, etc.
  • If the pak's authors idea is to make them very expensive, only rich players could afford them, build them and perhaps ruin a profitable line of a competitor in well advanced games.

As for how to build them:  underground, like tunnels.  Several qualities, with several capacities (speed).  They can cross, but only with the same type pipe.  They join stations.  I would work with packets the same.  A factory A produces a "packet of water" with destination factory B.  If there is a pipe route, the packet starts to travel and eventually arrives at destination.  They should be combined with no overcrowding of stations.  They would work somewhat like trains: all the path should be reserved from origin to destination and not used by any other packet until that packet has arrived.  Crossing should look like valves.

The pipe cannot be crossed by other way.  They would occupy an underground level and that could prevent some players from abusing them.

Just my ideas...

Offline jamespetts

  • Simitrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 14945
  • Total likes: 334
  • Helpful: 146
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2009, 11:02:24 PM »
This is a very interesting idea, and really ought not be dismissed out of hand. Simutrans is, after all, about the simulation of transportation networks, and pipelines and conveyor belts are elements of transportation networks just as much as roads and railways. It's Simutrans, not Simu-vehicle, after all.

The biggest difficulties really would be implementing the gameplay mechanics and designing all the necessary graphical objects. Pipelines would have different gameplay mechanics both to power lines and to vehicular transport (albeit they would have characteristics of both). I suspect that more people are interested in transport by vehicle than in transport by pipeline, but that does not make transport by pipeline not worthwhile at all to include. As can be seen by the responses, a number of people would find pipelines fun, even if there are also people who would not enjoy using them as much as vehicles (anyone who doesn't like the idea doesn't have to use them, of course).

If somebody is willing to code a pipelines patch, and produce all the pakset objects for it, I would be more than happy to include it in Simutrans-Experimental (provided that it's reasonably stable, of course). Simutrans-Experimental is largely about experimenting with new aspects of transportation economics, and pipelines seem like a very interesting new angle, especially since we seem to have an expert who is able to give us some inside information into their economics. As VS said, however, there are some technical challenges to overcome before this can be made to work. It would be fascinating, though, to have a game that incorporated elements of transportation that are often not seen or known much about by the public, and I imagine that choosing between pipelines and railways, for example, could be a very interesting choice in some circumstances (which is what would make the game fun, especially if combined with upgrading of pipeline technology, having to deal with increases of capacity, factory closures, etc.).
Download Simutrans-Extended.

Want to help with development? See here for things to do for coding, and here for information on how to make graphics/objects.

Follow Simutrans-Extended on Facebook.

Offline VS

  • Senior Plumber (Devotee)
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 4849
  • Total likes: 23
  • Helpful: 63
  • Vladimír Slávik
    • VS's Simutrans site
  • Languages: CS,EN
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2009, 11:12:22 PM »
For business reason, we can assume 1 m^3 of fluid enters-1 m^3 of fluid exits.
Fabio, great idea! For some reason I never thought of that. The immediate travel can be justified easily then...

Code: [Select]
waytipe=pipe
goods=oil
If my past experience with prissi is any indication, it would be made somewhat differently... adding a goods reference to ways would require another child node in code and pak format, which he wouldn't like adding to all ways just for the sake of pipes. Or maybe not. But that is probably just a technical detail.

I agree that pipelines would probably be both useful and realistic to have. (...) fun in simutrans is ... having your vehicles (...) games are all about fun and enjoyment. And just because something is useful in real life (and might also be useful in game), it doesn't mean that it's really good for the (fun of the) game. (...) transport and logistics - not a mayor's office, not a production industry, no civil services
These snippets match my opinion quite closely. If pipes/conveyors are added, they should not interfere with the main course of game, which is focused on building networks of the "vehicular" kind. I mean, they should not render other modes of transport useless, except in some niches.

Actually I think Timothy is right in that conveyor belts are better as station buildings. Easier than adding a seldom used exotic feature...

The pipe cannot be crossed by other way. They would occupy an underground level and that could prevent some players from abusing them.
Hm, what kind of abuse do you mean? Blocking other players? That can already be done with cheap railway, and solution is going 3d - bridges and tunnels. If pipes were really, really expensive overground structures requiring crossing by bridges, I could imagine that building them would be a huge commitment, since that would disrupt to some extent all other ways and pipes... Although from top of my head I can think of a few setups - station on a bridge over the pipe, for example. Funny how this "no crossing" strategy would also mean that crossing one's own pipes requires building a dummy station. It feels like an element of gameplay mechanic that might be worth keeping to increase the challenge ;)

My projects... Tools for messing with Simutrans graphics. Graphic archive - templates and some other stuff for painters. Development logs for most recent information on what is going on. And of course pak128!

Offline jamespetts

  • Simitrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 14945
  • Total likes: 334
  • Helpful: 146
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2009, 11:47:19 PM »
In reality, pipelines only render other modes of transport useless in fairly specialist conditions; if pipelines were realistically balanced in Simutrans, therefore, the same would apply there.
Download Simutrans-Extended.

Want to help with development? See here for things to do for coding, and here for information on how to make graphics/objects.

Follow Simutrans-Extended on Facebook.

Offline IgorEliezer

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 3913
  • Total likes: 117
  • Helpful: 68
  • Minister of Silly Posts
    • Igor Eliezer Architect and Urban Planner/Arquiteto e Urbanista
  • Languages: PT, EN, AutoLISP, Python
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2009, 12:43:45 AM »
Say, pipelines would not be fun once we can't manage vehicles. That is true.

Pipelines would be a very bad addition if such feature caused a considerable impact in gameplay if pipelines were used in any (or almost all) factory chain (s) so that you could substitute any vehicle just for sake of fun like "that's new, cool! Let me see how it works"... Final result: frustration for "boredom-ness".

First off, pipelines are not applicable in all freight categories. We have 7 freight categories; only in category 3 (Oil/petrol) and water that pipelines make sense to be used. Pipelines will not transport Boxed goods, Bulk goods, fluid foods (milk? ::)) and so on.

Then, how is the impact of pipelines?

I dare to say that pipelines wouldn't cause big impacts if implemented with wisdom. How so? Pipelines should be added not as an alternative (say, you could substitute a train with a pipeline in any situation) but as an addition when it's reasonable to be used.

Today, a coal power plant just receives coal to produce energy. Coal is transported by train or by other vehicle. With pipelines, coal power plant would receive coal by a vehicle and water by pipeline. Coal will continue to be transported by a vehicle. But now coal power plant has got something different and new.

How to manage a pipeline?
 
Pipelines have switches. Say, if a coal power plant has received too much water, I could switch pipeline off, as I would do with a vehicle upon sending it to a depot for a while.

If a factory (that consumes water) is demanding too much water, I'll have to remove the pipeline of small gauge/diameter (costs $$$) and I'll have to build a new pipeline of larger diameter (costs more $$$).

As I have said: pipelines are mean of transport too, it's logistic too. I don't see any problem if a factory to work needed water or any fluid transported by pipeline in Simutrans. Even if required for a factory to work.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 12:48:58 AM by IgorTekton »

Offline isidoro

Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2009, 05:14:14 AM »
Fabio, great idea! [quantity in, quantity out] For some reason I never thought of that. The immediate travel can be justified easily then...

I would not advocate for instant transportation.  There has to be a delay.  In the Russian gas crisis, the gas took some hours to reach destination when it finally was pumped.


Hm, what kind of abuse do you mean? Blocking other players?

I meant that if pipes are underground features that cannot be crossed by any other way, they would be a strong physical frontier in their underground level.  Players could not use them too much ("abuse" perhaps is not the word) since they would effectively block other underground ways.  That would be specially a challenge in cities with a populated underground.


Pipelines have switches. Say, if a coal power plant has received too much water, I could switch pipeline off, as I would do with a vehicle upon sending it to a depot for a while.

If a factory (that consumes water) is demanding too much water, I'll have to remove the pipeline of small gauge/diameter (costs $$$) and I'll have to build a new pipeline of larger diameter (costs more $$$).

The first statement in currently addressed by Simutrans with factories asking for goods when they need them.  Pipelines shouldn't behave differently here, imho.  If a factory doesn't require more water, it will simply ask for no more to water producing factories.

Regarding the second one, I think the key is speed of transportation.  The small diameter pipe will transport the water as well, but it would take much longer for the same amount to arrive.

Let's say: factory A requires 28 m3 of water from factory B.  With good pipe, it takes 1 day1 to arrive; with a bad one, 4 days.

It would work this way:  when B produces the water, a route to A is found and reserved.  No vehicle is needed in reality, but we can imagine one.  That imaginary vehicle will travel with the water.  It will pass good pipes and go fast there and bad ones and get slowed.  Eventually, the water will arrive.  That imaginary vehicle would not be painted in any way, of course.  It is only a way to program it.

Offtopic:  this reminds me about something I heard about of another pipe-like transportation: information.  Like in the Internet. What is the broadest-band network available at the moment?  50 Mbps,  100 Mbps in Japan?  Not at all, a truck full of CDs.

Offline emaxectranspoorte

Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2009, 08:24:37 AM »
Dude, is it so hard for you to accept that I have the right to express my personal opinion here - not a decision or ruling! (for that is neither in my powers nor my intention) - on this matter just like anybody else? And that I do so by explaining my thoughts on this issue in detail, so that people can debate the these things further, rather than only cry out "in favor" or "against" in (meaningless) one-line postings, like you do... well, I don't think I really have to defend myself for that. If you can't come up with more than that, don't blame me just because I can for "my side", ok?

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy… Watch out guys! Give him a gun or a rope! If he believes your breath is not worth it, you’ll be gunned down or hanged! He wants to be the first who crosses the bridge! Here we are, mate! Help yourself!
Is not my opinion or my solutions we are talking about. It’s Banksie_82’s!
I am an ordinary guy, student in Uni. I am not the best, so an average guy, one more time.
The sad thing is nobody asked Banksie how his idea could come to life, in the first place (of course in this game ;) ) Let him talk! I entirely embrace his ideas. IMHO a collaboration between him (hydraulic engineer) and IgorTekton (architect) could lead to an excellent result. On the other hand who doesn’t want to use pipelines, doesn’t have to. Simple, cool solution! Who thought about it?
I also like Banksie’s idea because it’s trying to make this game more realistic and I believe many guys’ (it doesn’t really matter whether they would like to face it or not) dream is to make it a reality one day.

BTW, you are not the only one who is opposing Banksie_82’s idea. Why are you taking it so personally? :-\

Offline Spike

  • *
  • Posts: 1361
  • Total likes: 0
  • Helpful: 2
  • First Simutrans Developer and Graphics Artist
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2009, 10:29:22 AM »
I can't remember why it was denied before however, but the proposal definitely has my support, would be extremely useful in some situations for transporting oil long distances.

I wanted to have the flow of fluids to be different from the electricity in power lines, but couldn't really get it working. After a while I lost motivation to complete the code; it didn't seem that exciting.

Another problem that hampered the introduction of pipelines at the time was that I wanted them to be underground, but Simutrans had no underground mode yet.

Still, water (also oil and gas) pipelines were one of the ideas that I wanted to add, and I think there once was a complete set of graphics for the pipelines - not very elaborate images, but well, they did the job while coding and testing.

When I brought up the idea again a while ago (I think it was in the german forum), I got a few opposing responses and didn't pursue the topic further.

Many words. Just briefly: I don't think they were denied while I was in charge, I just couldn't get them to work as I wanted, and I did not finish the code.

Offline DirrrtyDirk

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 1253
  • Total likes: 1
  • Helpful: 11
  • JR 700 Series Shinkansen
  • Languages: EN,DE
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2009, 11:48:53 AM »
Ok, maybe I went a little too far with that. Was a bad day yesterday and I'm coming down with the flu as it seems. So I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings. But although what I said was probably phrased too rudely, the idea behind it still kinda stands.

But first:

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy… Watch out guys! Give him a gun or a rope! If he believes your breath is not worth it, you’ll be gunned down or hanged! He wants to be the first who crosses the bridge! Here we are, mate! Help yourself!
Wow... getting me a rope or a gun? Ooookaaayy. That's a cheap shot if you ask me...

Is not my opinion or my solutions we are talking about. It’s Banksie_82’s!
Exactly. Unfortunately you didn't tell us any opinion or solution of your own. You told us on which side you are - but not why. So if you think it is such a good thing to have, why don't you tell us what exactly makes it good idea in your mind - just as I (and others) have done?

I am an ordinary guy, student in Uni. I am not the best, so an average guy, one more time.
The sad thing is nobody asked Banksie how his idea could come to life, in the first place (of course in this game ;) ) Let him talk! I entirely embrace his ideas. IMHO a collaboration between him (hydraulic engineer) and IgorTekton (architect) could lead to an excellent result. On the other hand who doesn’t want to use pipelines, doesn’t have to. Simple, cool solution! Who thought about it?
I also like Banksie’s idea because it’s trying to make this game more realistic and I believe many guys’ (it doesn’t really matter whether they would like to face it or not) dream is to make it a reality one day.
Yes, it is Banksie’s idea (although it is not really new, so originally it actually wasn't). But nobody is keeping him from participating in this. It's an open discussion - we don't have to ask him specifically - he can always drop in his ideas - just like everybody else. We're only exchanging points of view - nobody's has made a decision yet. And you shouldn't drop remarks that hint at that. (That's what actually made me angry in the first place. It is not our position to rule on this and it is not yours to judge if that decision has been made yet.)
There are people who like the idea and people who don't. Both sides bring up points for everyone to consider, so that in the end we can come to a solution. And that process has just begun.

BTW, you are not the only one who is opposing Banksie_82’s idea. Why are you taking it so personally? :-\
You are right. As I said above, I probably overreacted. But between your last two postings I was the only one (VS only asked some technical questions - neutrally if you ask me) to speak up against it - so I made that assumption. If that was wrong I apologize.



EDIT:
Another thing that made me think I was the target:
As far as I can see Banksie_82's dream will only be a "pipe dream", only because doesn't fit in the fun of this game.
Maybe because I used "fun" as one the major points in the posting right before yours?

Oh and by the way: very creative of you to steal my signatures and rephrase them to attack me. Together with the fact that you said it would be best if I just killed myself?... or wanting to kill others? And all this "somebody's breath being worth it" after I have told you that both sides have the right to bring up their points, problems and concerns so that we can reach a conclusion in the end, instead of you judging where things are going, right at the beginning. I just critized you (in an unnecessarily unfriendly way, yes) for not really participating in that part at all, instead dropping lines that held virtually no information on the issue at all (for whatever side!). To turn that into me trying to oppress your (or anybody else's!) ideas... that requires some skill. Have you considered going into politics as a career? That skill should be highly useful there.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 11:21:26 PM by DirrrtyDirk »
  
***** PAK128 Dev Team - semi-retired*****

Offline KrazyJay

  • *
  • Posts: 172
  • Total likes: 0
  • Helpful: 0
  • Infrastructure & Transportation Junk
Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2009, 03:37:43 PM »
I'm wondering, and maybe I'm going either too fast or too slow, but if pipelines are used, thinking in layers (like roads are on top of soil, and signals on top of tracks), where are the pipelines? For example, if I use the removal tool, will the pipeline be removed before of after roads, or signals? Also, I'm afraid there may be too many layers. If Simutrans is supposed to be a simple simulation, easy to play and discover, then how can pipelines fit in? This last bit doesn't necessarily reflect my personal opinion though.

What I do think is that pipelines can be a nice addition, but only if it can blend in well with everything else that's represented in Simutrans, but surely doesn't replace current ways of transportation, especially because pipelines seem a little static to me.
Played Simutrans in:
~ The Netherlands ~ United Kingdom ~ Taiwan ~ Belgium ~


Simutrans player

Offline isidoro

Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2009, 08:44:36 PM »
As I see them, pipes wouldn't merge with other ways or signals.   They will occupy one cell for themselves, just like power lines, but without crossings.

Electrification could be optional, used only if we want that liquid packets can go uphill (simulating pumps).


Offline Stubbsy

Re: way type - Pipe lines
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2009, 08:51:15 PM »
i've started looking into this a little bit today. Would you class water as power? Also would you code it as to be a tunnel?