Author Topic: A snippet of relative pricing information  (Read 62464 times)

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Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2013, 06:10:13 PM »
There is some interesting and useful road and bridge price information on the BBC website here (all prices are at 2011 levels):

  • Bridges cost about 10x more to construct than plain ways
  • £17,045/yard is the cost for an ordinary 3-lane motorway
  • £142,000/yard is the cost of a motorway tunnel
  • £78,000/yard is the cost of an elevated section of motorway
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Offline wlindley

Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2013, 07:14:18 PM »
Yards? In 2011? Metres, surely?  In America we are told that every other country in the world uses Metric exclusively -- and I cannot (gasp) imagine (swoon) that our media might tell us an untruth!

Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2013, 07:21:10 PM »
The website gave conversions to meters for some but not all of the figures given.
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Offline Markohs

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2013, 07:30:33 PM »
English and Irish are the only ones in europe that still drag some those archaic measurement units from the past, I guess it's a cultural thing and it makes them feel special. :) But yes, all industrial processes are metrified already, even cars manufactured in US are designed and manufactured in meters. :)

I guess you can order designs in inches etc to china, but they'll just round it to the closes milimeter unit and just use international measurements. I've read it saved tons of money to english industries.

atm english just use yards to measure distances by road, speeds in automobiles and use stones to weight some things, but it will gradually disapear in my oppinion. Plus pints to order beers I guess. :)

 But I'm not english. I read most of this here.

It's a process the US will someday get into. What I'm not sure is if I'll be still alive that day.

 This reminds me of a joke somebody told me:

 A guy driving on a highway listens on the radio:

 - Attention all drivers in highway, there is a a guy driving in the opposite direction on the highway, be extremely careful!

 And he guy says:

 - ****!!! JUST ONE??? THEY ARE ALL DRIVING OPOSITE DIRECTION!!!

 :)

EDIT: I just saw they have an article about metrification in US too, interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_States . Excuse me if I'm being too off-topic here.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 07:55:24 PM by Markohs »

Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2013, 12:30:25 AM »
Some interesting information on the fuel economy of steam locomotives in the 1920s here: apparently, the GWR Castle class consumed 2.83lb of coal per drawbar horsepower, compared to an average of 4lbs on other railways at the time.

Edit: The same information is replicated here, which also has some other fascinating information, including:

(1) "A rough guide to the maximum weight of locomotive for a given rail weight, is to take the weight of the rail in lbs. per yard, divide it by five, and that gives the maximum weight per axle in tons.(This assumes a well constructed and maintained track bed.)"

(2) "A frequently-quoted figure is that an engine can generate one horsepower per 2.5 square feet of heating surface... Although the size of the firebox and tubes is often used to gauge power (as above), the limiting factor may often be the water space around them, but this information is not usually apparent without a study of drawings etc."

(3) "Coal usage of 2 ½ lb. per sq. ft of grate per minute = practical maximum."

(4) "Haulage on railway track = 5 x distance of road haulage for same fuel."

(5) "Superheating can reduce water / coal consumption by about 25%."

Edit: Also, some interesting information here on the relative economy of the LNER Peppercorn A1 class.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 01:15:43 AM by jamespetts »
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Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2013, 01:48:34 AM »
Some very interesting information here in the form of a full text digitised (out of copyright) book on the history of the use of steel rails - some very useful statistics are given on the weights of rail in use at various times and the comparative maintenance costs (or rather, data from which those costs might be estimated) of iron and steel rails. An example is as follows:

Quote
On that [line] extending between Newcastle and Berwick, 66.8 miles of double way, the iron rails laid down in 1847 weighed 65 pounds per yard. Renewals commenced in 1855 and terminated in 1867. In these the weight was increased to 82 pounds per yard. The maximum duration of the 65-pound rails was 21 years and the minimum 8 years, the average being 12.8 years.

Mr. T. E. Harrison stated in 1867 that on 700 miles of permanent way of the North-Eastem Railway the average duration of the last complete set of rails was found to be about 15.5 years; and some which were laid down in 1834 were still in use.
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Offline dustNbone

Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2013, 05:48:08 AM »
Brilliant find!  I can see myself reading this for enjoyment.  Placed on smartphone awaiting next moment of boredom.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2013, 12:26:18 PM »
Some further useful information on the same topic is to be found here.

Edit:

Further useful pricing information from the book on steel rails above:

Quote
About 1864 the Erie Railway Company ordered from John Brown and Company, of Sheffield, England, 1000 tons of Bessemer steel rails at £25 per ton.

Edit 2:

Some further very interesting information from this source relating to the Great Central Railway:

Quote
1922: The GCR placed a stores contract order for 8000 tons of 95 lb/yard steel rails (equivalent to 100 miles) at £7.13.6d per ton. ... Thirty years previously, the same [suppliers] had sold to the M. S. & L. 86 lb/yard steel rails at £4.10.0d. per ton

It should be noted that Wikipedia states that 95lb/yard rail was the standard for main line usage at the turn of the 20th century.

Of course, when calculating the costs of actually laying track, the costs of things other than the rail itself need to be taken into account, but this does provide a useful guide to the relative costs of different sorts of steel rail and also an idea of a starting point for the prices of track laying more generally.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 02:07:22 AM by jamespetts »
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Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2013, 01:36:10 AM »
Some useful information on carriage prices from "Midland Railway Carriages" (Lacey & Dow - Volume I): six wheel carriages for express passenger work were built on the Midland down to September 1898 (p. 138). Those built after 1896 were of the distinctive clerestory type with flush ends. In November 1897, a number of these carriages were ordered from outside contractors, costing £645 each for those ordered from the Birmingham Carriage & Wagon Company, £606 each for those ordered from the Ashbury Company, and £650 each from those ordered from the Lancaster Carriage & Wagon Company (p. 133). It is recorded that the cost of these carriages was £609 in 1899 each if built in the company's own works, compared to £900 each for bogie carriages (p. 142), although it does not specify whether it is referring here to the 8-wheel 48ft or 12-wheel 60ft type, both of which were built for the Midland.

Edit: p. 231 of Volume II of that work records that, in 1915, elliptical roof carriages cost £35-40 less per vehicle to build, cost £1/year less to run, and were approximately 12cwt. lighter than the equivalent clerestory carriage.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 09:57:06 AM by jamespetts »
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Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2013, 10:57:51 PM »
A note on bridge prices: Wikipedia reports that the Wharncliffe Viaduct (otherwise known as the Hanwell Viaduct) on the Great Western main line between London and Slough, completed in 1837 and being 270 meters long cost £40,000. At the time it carried two broad gauge tracks: it was subsequently widened and converted to standard gauge, and now carries four standard gauge tracks. This bridge, I think, has the same speed limit as the surrounding line (125mph, or about 200km/h) and regularly takes very heavy aggregates trains.
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Offline Carl

Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2013, 08:08:36 AM »
According to the relevant national rail sectional appendix, the two main lines over that section have a linespeed of 125mph, while it is 90mph for the two relief lines.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2013, 10:27:44 AM »
Yes - that is the same as more or less the whole stretch between Reading and London.
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Offline Carl

Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2013, 10:31:24 AM »
Incidentally, this seems to lend further weight to your point (on the other topic) that it would be ideal to separate the underlying bridge from the way on top of it -- since the same bridge simultaneously carries different grades of way.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2013, 10:41:57 AM »
Indeed. I suspect that it would be a very considerable coding task, however.
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Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2013, 10:59:45 AM »
According to this article from The Economist, maglev trains consume a third less energy than railway trains, but the tracks cost about 10% more.
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Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #85 on: August 10, 2013, 11:41:43 AM »
Some useful information on the costs of overhauls: according to this article, a major overhaul of the BR Class 89 undertaken in 1996 cost in the region of £100,000.
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Offline ӔO

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #86 on: August 10, 2013, 11:54:04 AM »
In 1998-2004, rebuilding class 47 into class 57 costed around £500,000, or about 1/3 the cost of buying new.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_57

class 66 was the locomotive built from 1998 to 2008, so it is probably safe to say class 66 costed around £1,500,000
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Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #87 on: August 10, 2013, 12:01:25 PM »
Very interesting research/deduction - thank you!
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Offline AvG

Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #88 on: August 19, 2013, 11:31:50 AM »
Is there any info on the value of the American dollar in the period 1800-1850. Can't find anything myself, but I saw interesting figures for bridges in $.
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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #89 on: August 19, 2013, 04:58:52 PM »
Was there not a long period of history in which one US cent was equal to one British penny (then being 1/240th of a pound)?
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Offline ӔO

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #90 on: August 20, 2013, 09:05:08 PM »
30 class 67 costed £45 million, so that would make them £1.5 million each.

or, exactly the same cost as class 66

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_67

or it might be that class 67 was the alternative to class 47/57
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 09:26:19 PM by ӔO »
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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #91 on: August 20, 2013, 09:26:40 PM »
Very interesting - thank you!
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Offline MCollett

Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #92 on: August 21, 2013, 02:13:03 AM »
Was there not a long period of history in which one US cent was equal to one British penny (then being 1/240th of a pound)?
More like 2 cents to the penny: through most of the 19th century there were about 5 dollars to the pound, and even as late as WWII there were about 4 dollars to the pound.

Best wishes,
Matthew


Offline ӔO

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #93 on: August 21, 2013, 03:35:21 AM »
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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #94 on: August 21, 2013, 08:12:23 AM »
Sorry, that calculator has as earliest date 1913.
 I need 1820.
But thanks for the tip.
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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #95 on: August 21, 2013, 08:20:05 AM »
I think in 1820, USD and GBP would have used either gold or silver standard, unlike now, which is fiat currency.
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Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #96 on: August 26, 2013, 02:46:28 PM »
According to "Midland Railway Carriages" (Vol. 2) by Lacy & Dow, a pair of Midland dining carriages of 1892, built for Anglo-Scottish joint stock to the same specifications as the Midland's own first dining carriage of a year earlier, cost between them £3,440 plus £210 for oil gas lighting (p. 437). That makes a total of £3,650 for both vehicles, or £1,825 each. These vehicles were 60ft long with a tare weight of 33 tons.

Edit: From the same volume at p. 445 - an 1898 renewal of Anglo-Scottish joint stock on the Midland entailed an order for 45 corridor composites at £1,572 each, 12 brake composites at £1,548 each, 12 third class carriages at £1,255 each, 10 passenger brake vans at £862 each, 3 dining carriages at £1,980 each, all being 50ft bogie corridor carriages, plus 31 six wheeled brake vans at £431 each.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 02:53:00 PM by jamespetts »
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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #97 on: August 26, 2013, 08:18:59 PM »
James,
Looking at your pricing info for many years ago I have the impression that you aim to use in scenarios the prices that were valid in the years those scenarios
simulate. Is that right??
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BTW: Interesting stuff. I also like to search for info like that.
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Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #98 on: August 26, 2013, 09:46:02 PM »
What I intend to do is to get the relative prices correct: in other words, for example, if, in real life, a particular vehicle cost 2.37 times more to build/buy than another vehicle, then it should cost 2.37 times as much to build/buy in Simutrans, too. The absolute numbers are not so important. However, before this can be done reliably, we have to be able to simulate inflation, which is a couple of major releases away for the time being.
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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2013, 09:50:04 AM »
James,
This is not exactly what I mean.

You write: What I intend to do is to get the relative prices correct. That I understand.

What I had in mind is: There must be a huge differende in price of an item made in 1800 and one made in 2000.

Example: In my pricing-math wages in 1750 start at 0,01 HCr/h. With an average yearly inflation of 3% you have in 2013 wages of ~ 24,00 HCr/h. This is quite realistic, compared to the historic
info. These calculated wages can be found in all price-calculations of the DRC-approach, and generaly lead to huge differences with normal EXP-prices.

Yesterday I finished my first calculation of the MacAdam road.

In EXP price/km 65 HCr ;  maint.: Bmp22 16HCr/m and BmP25  128HCr/m

In DRC price/km 4400 HCr;  maint : Bmp22 0,12 HCr/m and BmP25  1,0 HCr/m Valid for 1820.
[/size]
[/size]Note: I realize that such a calculation has to be redone every f.i. 20 or 25 years. (As long as it is not incorporated in the simu.exe. If ever))
[/size]AvG
[/size]
[/size]
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Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2013, 10:15:27 AM »
I think that you are referring to the simulation of inflation? That certainly needs to be done, but that will require a fairly substantial code change.
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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #101 on: August 27, 2013, 10:37:19 AM »
OK, James
So I understand that it one of your future-plans.
Just be aware that DCR is already working this way.
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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2013, 11:42:42 AM »
Interesting technical paper on how the class 390 operates.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/2%20completed%20consultations/2010/2010.06.11%20west%20coast%20trains%209th%20sa%20-%20consultation%20closed%2007%20july%202010/vt-ec4t-390%20technical%20file%20issue%201b.pdf

I think it says that, in operation, only 6 axles are powered, so each powered axle consumes around 850kW.
Since an 11-coach train consumes an additional 850kW, it would mean that the middle car only receives power to one axle, making for 7 powered axles. This is possibly due to transformer and/or cable limitations.

but for simutrans purposes, 850kW per powered car should be fine.

---

As to why only one pantograph is raised during operation, some guesses.

APT had its power coaches in the middle, because the engineers couldn't solve overhead powerlines from rippling and not making good contact with the pantographs when the power cars were placed at the ends when operating at high speed.
This was supposedly fixed by the time the eurostar was introduced, because that train operates with both raised, however it might be that a combination of overhead catenery quality, tilting and space between pantographs makes it difficult for the pendolino to raise both without encountering the above mentioned rippling.

class 395 Javelin may also have the cable rippling problem in 6+6 configuration, as pictures indicate only one out of 4 being raised, although I am unsure how many motor cars a single transformer can power, as this can vary greatly between bullet trains.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 12:15:55 PM by ӔO »
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Offline jamespetts

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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2013, 10:05:39 PM »
Interesting!

Four wheeled brake vans, 25ft in length, built for the Midland Railway in 1876 cost £234 each according to Lacy & Dow (vol. 2), p. 366.
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Re: A snippet of relative pricing information
« Reply #104 on: August 28, 2013, 10:10:05 AM »
I didn't think we had modified Mk4 cars in canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightstar_%28train%29

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