Author Topic: General pak64 feedback here  (Read 30415 times)

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Offline colonyan

General pak64 feedback here
« on: December 05, 2008, 09:03:00 PM »

  I'm using pak64-115.
  It's nice to have new official passenger car @230km/h.
  More variety. Also, there is 2 2story passenger cars!
  And I'm also happy about runnning cost revision.

  If permitted I would like to come back and give more feed back!

Offline colonyan

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2008, 06:50:54 PM »
  pak64-115. year 1909-1924
  I'm recently playing with 0.10c per passenger instead of 0.15,
  and seems like this is the good balance point.
  At 0.11+, profit goes up considerably.
  Below 0.1, company can not support itself.
  Just a reminder. ;) 

  1.1c/tile runningcost for old pass. car seems little to cheap.
  Even with 0.1c per pass cost, it make good profit.

  8.8c/tile for 98pass carrier at 1924.
  Feels little bit expensive.
  But its ok I guess.
  It asks careful choice to use this car.
  Maybe faster loco needed? max126km/h is
  fastest it gets at 1924. To take adv. of 160km/h of passenger car,,,,,
 
 

Offline robofish

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2008, 06:16:25 PM »
  I'm recently playing with 0.10c per passenger instead of 0.15 
How did you change that?
Beginner mode enabled and beginner_price_factor in simuconf.tab < 1000 ?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 06:19:34 PM by robofish »

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2008, 06:24:06 PM »
Or maybe he changed the pak file for the goods.
  
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Offline colonyan

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2009, 09:57:13 PM »
Yup, I've changed the goods price...

15c for electrification and 2c for maintenance is kind a very cheap.....(even counting that this is still in balancing)
I read that electrification costs good fortune.... meh

Offline colonyan

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2009, 02:23:46 AM »
 
   More player point of view reviews. \\\ I apologize fore hand that this board becomes more personal diary.

   102.
   -Addition of river adds whole lot of atmosphere and geographic characteristics.
   
   -Inspite the deadlock, categolized station capacity and convoy not loading if
    transfer is full gives lot more chance for station upgrades to be used.
    Seriously, I only needed to use lowest capacity platform only and forget about.
    Thus even if its not definite feature, yet, is very good.
 
   -Collected fee based on initial point and destination is good too.
    Now I need to care more the route plan, which is fun.

   =I still don't get the price of the electrification. Its too cheap both construction and
     maintenance. Seems almost insignificant compared to current revenue scale.
 
   =Buses on 20's and 30's. Maintenace too cheap especially 39 passenger capacity one.
     It's almost free.... 0.5c...
   
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   I wish I can paint...

Offline colonyan

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2009, 01:19:00 AM »
Little finding in official 102 release.
It is fine to tram trains to be able to run on normal rail track.
But what it gives is, it is very or too profitable using them to connect cities not too far apart.
Basic track cost low to maintain and tram trains are very cheap to maintain. They also has moderate
amount of carrying capacity. (trams supposed to have low maintenance because their track are quite expensive to maintain)
Maybe modify speed bonus for tram trains so current speed bring less income could solve the issue.

Offline colonyan

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2009, 01:59:39 PM »
Another little notice.
If you play from 1930, unless you have excessively large city from the
beggining, there is very little chance that you need tram track layed on
city road. Just buses are enough to take care of intra city demand.

We have very nice tool as tram set/track but can not use fully as intentioned.
Unless you use it as cheap alternative for close range inter city passenger service which
is not the job of tram...

Thus it would be nice to if we had so that larger city gets more people travel inside the city,
or other. Population dependent passenger directing, is it possible?

Offline prissi

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2009, 08:35:12 PM »
The city creation is already not even distributed random, but with a higher chance for larger cities.

Offline colonyan

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2009, 03:51:47 PM »
Using default settings.
These can be avoided modifying config tab to some extent.
But for casual player who doesn't want to spend too much time other than actual play,
it could be negative factor for them.
(well, I suppose people who would play simutrans extensively has mostly
patience to learn them selves about the game)

-New industry chain sprout. In area where cities are packed, some of them are impossible to treat.
-Same kind of chain with same factory spacing. After second one, its just too (ahem) boring.
-Oil rig all over the place. I suppose its north sea all over in pak64.
-This is not only pak64 but mine/factories/power plant which does not take worker from any city.
  They are becoming "just make money tool" in game flow wise.

=Simple possible solution
 
    1. Separate industry chain into consumption chain and production chain.
        First, consumer stores are built. Production chain will built slowly to meet the demand.

    2. Predesignate raw material production area.
        There are no iron ore mine all over the world. At creation of map, restrict the placement and number of
        raw provider. Avoids and controls the distribution of raw material provider.
        If placement is exhausted, create [import point] on the edge of map.
   
    3. Make climate restriction only a assumption(like river generation) to avoid confusion
 


I know I'm being harsh here but only gentle sunlight and tender water does not make strong well built tree.
It need some hard wind too...
Anyway just some remarks.

Offline neroden

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2009, 05:42:57 AM »
I'm enjoying pak64 a lot with version 102.

There's only one thing -- cities grow *way* too fast for my taste.  (Industry chains also grow a little too fast.)  If I start in 1930 and arrange to serve all the best passenger and freight routes, I find the cities exploding around me with urban sprawl and the population doubles by 1932.  It becomes very hard to perform any sort of urban planning, and even hard to get railways or power lines where they're needed, and pretty much impossible to develop a "full service" network for any city, because by the time I've finished, the city has grown a lot.  If I keep playing, the game starts running very sluggishly as the population explodes, and then usually crashing sometime in the 1950s!  Which is not entirely satisfactory.

Maybe I'm just really good at the game ;-) but I don't think so.  Is there some way to slow down the city growth and industry growth so it's still happening, but not *quite* so fast, so I have a chance to make it to 2000?  I've been fiddling with config.tab but it's hard to tell how much to change the numbers; change them too much and nothing works (I get cities with no buildings except the town hall).

Offline Combuijs

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2009, 06:38:05 AM »
Don't know about the crashing of the game in the 1950's. Should not happen I think. The game can get sluggish if for example a lot of convois (over a thousand) are being used.

In cityrules.tab you have got a lot of settings, but two of them are very interesting:

1) industry_increase_every = 2000

If you set this value to 0 no extra factories will be placed. Further, a new industry chain will be set up every time a city is increased by 2000 inhabitants. So if you put a higher number here, you will have less industry growth.

2) renovation_percentage = 12

(chance for renovation versus new building (bigger number => less sprawling)). There is no way to slow down population growth if you connect everything with everything. This setting however influences the physically growing of the city. The higher the number, the more compact your cities will be.

If you want to change a setting, the best thing you can do is make a copy of the involved .tab file in the directory where your save game directory is located (on Windows: "My Documents\Simutrans"), strip everything you don't want to change and then change the settings you want to change. Simutrans uses a three-level system for settings. It first looks in the mentioned directory, then in the pak directory and finally in the directory where Simutrans is installed.

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Offline vilvoh

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2009, 06:47:48 AM »
You may also increase the maintenance costs, to earn less money. That will delay the growth

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puzzler995

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2009, 02:34:01 PM »
You guys should add a rotate feature, like pak128 and a few others.

Offline vilvoh

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2009, 04:22:19 PM »
The rotation is a Simutrans graphic engine feature not a pakset's feature, thus it's available in all paksets but It depends on the amount of views the object has.

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Offline neroden

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2009, 04:23:47 AM »
Don't know about the crashing of the game in the 1950's. Should not happen I think. The game can get sluggish if for example a lot of convois (over a thousand) are being used.
I'm not sure what's triggering the crashes, but it seems to happen after running a game for several hours, so I'm betting unrelated memory leak at this point.....

Quote
In cityrules.tab you have got a lot of settings, but two of them are very interesting:

1) industry_increase_every = 2000

If you set this value to 0 no extra factories will be placed. Further, a new industry chain will be set up every time a city is increased by 2000 inhabitants. So if you put a higher number here, you will have less industry growth.
I've been very happy with this set to 4000.  I'd suggest it as a permanent change; it seems to give about the right balance between available goods and passengers/mail traffic.

Quote
2) renovation_percentage = 12

(chance for renovation versus new building (bigger number => less sprawling)). There is no way to slow down population growth if you connect everything with everything. This setting however influences the physically growing of the city. The higher the number, the more compact your cities will be.

I set this up to 33.  I also set minimum_building_desity (sic) to 66 -- the combination seems to be a bit too high.  Cities *really* don't want to sprawl, even with empty space next to downtown roads, all buildings maximum density, and 7000 homeless.  I'll try reverting minimum_building_de[n]sity.


Thanks for the pointers.

Offline colonyan

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2009, 03:04:49 PM »
About the industry_increase_every and minimum_building_density.
I set increase every 5000. It is right amount for me. 4000 sounds good too.
Anyway2000 was was just too packed.

And I'm using 25% for minimum density. With 33%, I had some cities
not expanding inspite they were not on the island.

And gasolin is still ridiculously lucratif. With one refinery supporting five
gasoline stations all over the map, profit is sky high!

And also for the old passenger cars. Low running cost are good for making service on
rular or unstable passenger amount line but at 1.1/tile, and 100km/h still exceeding
way over 0.15c basic cost for several decades, it becomes really lucratif.

Offline colonyan

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2009, 01:18:17 AM »
   Little finding about monorail/maglev

   It seems like in pak64 world, monorail stand for slower model of maglev.

   If refering from its name, they shouldn't be compatible each other.
   (monorail:basically concrete and steel based, maglev track:implies system for magnetic gadget etc...)  
   Also, there track seems very different from one each other.
   Since they have different cost structure and appealing year, may be they could be considered different
   systems. Maybe way type is unified from coding structure?

   In anycase, actual profitable maglev starting from 1984 seems making pak64 world technologically
   advanced than real world.

   Actually, it is hard to make difference with all way type with cost and maintenance etc...
   Except, monor/maglev allows easier urban construction.

   Edit: I see the concept, maglev vehichle in ST incorporates monorail mechanism and maglev track
           are designed in a way so monorail vehicles can ride on it.
           Vote for simplicity indeed.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 05:43:40 AM by colonyan »

Offline VS

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2009, 08:57:08 AM »
This is a legacy issue. Originally there was demand for some futuristic railway, so we got "monorail", and then people started abusing it for maglev Only recently* did we get maglev as another separate waytype.

It's a similar issue to pak128 using "monorail" for hanging trains. Pak128 has specially a bunch of translation items that translate "monorail" to "hanging track" or something similar.

Generally the issue is simple. If you have something out of the existing categories, just bend one of them for your purpose. Of course that won't change what it really is, only how it looks and is called ;) For example fences and city walls and such are just a way that can't be driven over.

*compared to how long has "monorail" been around

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Offline colonyan

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2010, 07:26:09 PM »
I just started new game yesterday and I remarked that 1st book store consumption rate
has increase from 358 unit a month to 488unit a month. I guess it will be good for player
to be notified on this kind of event similar to opening of new industry chain.

Also, when does increase in consumption rate occurs? Can this happen in any consumer?

Offline prissi

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2010, 09:57:56 PM »
There is a random intervall for the initial consumption. But this should never change during the game, if this is what you meant.

Offline colonyan

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2010, 10:01:37 PM »
Its ok to have this kind of variation time by time. It does make challenge.
But this should never change during the game, if this is what you meant.
You mean 'this' rate of consumption?

Offline jk271

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2011, 02:18:52 PM »
It's nice to see rivers. It may be useful to have tools for creating them (like in pak128).

Offline IgorEliezer

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2011, 02:42:55 PM »
It's nice to see rivers. It may be useful to have tools for creating them (like in pak128).

Supported. Specially, when you need to terraform a bit and you ended up cutting a river. How would I revert it without a river editor? :-/

Offline jk271

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2011, 04:32:56 PM »
Supported. Specially, when you need to terraform a bit and you ended up cutting a river. How would I revert it without a river editor? :-/

Maybe I can not find the right menu option. I am using latest stable simutrans 102.2.2 and latest stable pak64 102.2.2 and pak128 1.4.6-102.2.
I speak obout "Map editing tools" marked on screenshot of simutrans using pak128, that I can not find in pak64.

Offline paco_m

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2011, 09:04:26 PM »
As far as I know pak128 is the only pak that has the buttons to create rivers. ;)
Depending on the map options you might get automatical generated rivers during the map creation,
this requires a flat map (without higher mountains).

Offline prissi

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2011, 09:46:55 PM »
The rivers in pak64 are badly drawn by me. If somebody draws nicer rivers with icons, I can add this.

Offline IgorEliezer

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2011, 02:09:34 AM »
Prissi, open a topic. I believe we'll get artists quickly. :D

Offline jk271

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2011, 06:17:58 PM »
As far as I know pak128 is the only pak that has the buttons to create rivers. ;)
Depending on the map options you might get automatical generated rivers during the map creation,
this requires a flat map (without higher mountains).

Thank you for your and answer. I knew about automatically generated rivers. But I didn't know, that menu buttons are only in pak128.
The rivers in pak64 are badly drawn by me. If somebody draws nicer rivers with icons, I can add this.

I like rivers in pak64.

Edit: All: I think, that there is only missing line containing

toolbar[10][14]=ways(3,255)

or something like that in file pak/config/menuconf.tab
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:52:32 PM by jk271 »

Offline electroduck

River creation
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2011, 01:01:36 AM »
Amazingly, that works!
See here:
EAT BASE 64!
$TXkgbmFtZSBpcyBlbGVjdHJvZHVjay4NCllvdSBjYW4gdmlzaXQgbXkgd2ViIHNpdGUgYXQgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5lbGVjdHJvZHVjay5jb20vDQpJIGxpa2UgRG9mdXMgYW5kIFNpbXV0cmFucy4=

Offline jk271

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2011, 12:52:11 PM »
I am using simutrans 110 vith pak64 r418:419. It's nice to see new bus stops for 64 and 128 passanges.

Offline greenling

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2011, 07:19:55 PM »
I Have simutrans 110 with pak64,pakjapan,pakgerman.
with the scoure from pak.japan and pak64 can i create three crossings for my owns paksets.
But i can not be use all three crossing they it give no Choosebotten for crossings in pak64.
please make crossing in pak64 chooseable.
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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2011, 03:38:50 PM »
i would like to ask why in pak 64 is so little airplanes and after 2000 it get even less.
After 2000 only pasangers and mail planes are left and no cargo planes. And it makes very difficult to transport goods on big maps vith several player. So addinting more cargo planes would be very nice and good :)
P.S.
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« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 04:07:21 PM by smile »

Offline colonyan

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2011, 05:22:23 PM »
64 as well as 64 German.
Its interesting that maintenance cost of depots are gone.
I think its good since running empty can lead to large deficit.


Offline Qayyum

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2011, 12:05:38 PM »
What's the length of 1x1 tile in pak.64? If it is 1km, then a train moving at 55 km/h will olnly cover 55 tiles every game hour.

Just asking because currently I feel that the trains moves too slow, even if it is moving at 100 km/h. I had to speed up the time to T=2.00 just to speed up the action. Oh, and how can I change the 1x1 tile length in pak.64?
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Offline prissi

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2011, 03:08:22 PM »
IN experimental you can apply any setting you like. In standard your speed will depend very much on the setting of bits_per_month and the actual clock display (96h per month or daywise). As a simulation cannot achieve any granulaty that would even come close to reality (otherwise trains would bei easily 12 km long, and even buses 500m), the speeds are optimized for playing.

If you feel everything runs a factor of 2 too slow, increase bits_per_month by one. This will slow down the passing of time by a factor of two.

Offline Qayyum

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2011, 04:30:54 PM »
Sorry, but don't know where bits_per_month is. Is it in the simuconf.tab?

Also, I'm still wondering. Does 1 tile in pak.64 represent 1km?
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Offline prissi

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2011, 08:26:42 PM »
In terms of city size or city distances, it is about 1km. In terms of vehicle or house sizes it is rather 25m. In case of ships it is in between. There is no clear answer possible, since for the sake of simulation and playability a total matching of scales is not possible. (This problem is inherent of all simulations games.)

The bit_per_month settign you will either find ein the extended settigns for a map or in simuconf.tab. It is highly recommended to not touch this during a running game but one alter it at the start of a game.

Offline Carl

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2011, 11:00:16 AM »
What are the potential problems if one changes bits_per_month during a running game?

Offline prissi

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2011, 12:26:22 PM »
Messing up finances in the statistics. Change of values of older vehicles. Unintended long waiting time for vehicles. Maybe also some factory production issues.

If you not care about statistics, then only the different waiting time is affecting you and maybe a change of factory production.

Offline Carl

Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2011, 12:32:10 PM »
Ok -- thanks.

Offline Ters

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2012, 07:22:07 PM »
Does something like http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/pak64.pdf exist somewhere else, or have I come up with something new here?

Offline prissi

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2012, 08:51:17 PM »
If the set is on simutranslator and you can do without images:
http://simutrans-germany.com/translator/script/statistics_vehicles.php

Offline Ters

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2012, 10:37:18 PM »
I had a nagging suspicion that I had seen something like my vehicle listing before, but I never thought of checking simutranslator. As far as I can see, it's only for vehicles, though.
 
UPDATE:
I have uploaded a newer version of the report with images for factories, PDF bookmarks, and a section for attractions. I'm surprised how many factories that were still unknown to me after all these years of playing.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 11:49:44 AM by Ters »

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Re: General pak64 feedback here
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2012, 07:59:48 PM »
I noticed that there is some unneeded white space between Lithuanian city names (some of city names are combined) so i corrected it. And reupload it here.