Author Topic: Translator vs Process  (Read 4007 times)

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Offline Spike

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Translator vs Process
« on: April 11, 2012, 04:16:35 PM »
Prissi, somewhere you asked me to create a better translation tool, since I complained that the translator often produces bad results. I can't find the other posting anymore, maybe it was in the secret forums where I have no longer access.

I didn't reply to it that time, since I thought it is obvious that a new tool wouldn't change anything, and therefore I won't make one.

What you need to establish quality in the translations is not a better tool, but a better process. And I can't make that for you, you must employ such a  process yourself, or the community must do so. I can't do that for you.

I told you that I'll use a different process for my creations (if they ever get so far to need translations), but maybe that was too brief to be clear what I mean. You can still say my complaining without adding new translations is lazy and not helpful - but unless you establish a better process, I'll not support the current, bad, state.

Offline An_dz

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Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 05:41:14 PM »
The process seems better now as most of the translators are devotees, and they take more care on translation.

I'm interested on seeing how your process will work.

Offline Spike

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Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 08:00:09 PM »
I'll choose people who are dedicated to maintaining one language file each. Being personally responsible for something usually results in better quality. I did it that way while I was Simutrans maintainer, and I'll do it this way again. It worked very well. I'll maintain German and English myself, and Prissi could do that too, at least for the core and pak64, which are both his.

pak128 which is usually given as a counter example is something else. I only talk about Simutrans core and pak64. (And I never complained about the language quality of something else).

Offline prissi

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Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 08:10:33 PM »
pak64 and base are more or less maintained like that. For german translation is even forbidden for base.tab. But given the many other pak set developed since then as well as languages I cannot judge at all, translator is not worse than receiving list from people I do not know either. The other reason is that we simply do not have translators for several languages for many of the new entries since then. If limited to devotees, simutrans would only come in seven languages (italian, portugese, french, english, german, japanese, and spanish).

In the end I have to trust somebody. For instance the korean translation was made from the japanese one, as the translator was not really speaking english. Thus I did not know the person before, he just mailed part of the translation, finished it an vanished. Repeated process with other languages.

The translator also helped and found many broken entries and helps to keep translation files current as well as indicating missing translations. A task almost impossible, when maintaining everything by hand. The original files had more than 100 missing entries, most unfamous "Die Brücke ist nicht frei" which prevailed for several years.

Offline Spike

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Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2012, 08:16:37 PM »
I wonder how that one escaped me. My memories are blank there. I am pretty sure that I fixed all missing entries which had been reported. I actually did not know that this one had become such a sort of running gag, and I still wonder that everyone but myself seems to have known about it :/

Offline kierongreen

Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2012, 08:18:38 PM »
Simutrans is a large project, it is not surprising that one translation slipped someones attention. I wouldn't worry about it too much :)

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall

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Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2012, 08:46:53 PM »
I still miss  "Die Brücke ist nicht frei" :-)

Offline An_dz

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Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2012, 11:30:06 PM »
If we check, those languages that have devotees are better translated.
Maybe when we get devotees that translate we could block others from translating, others will just suggest the devotee new strings, as we do in PT section.

The devotee don't need to keep the language always 100% translated, but he will be the filter and responsible to see if the translation fit the place and if it's correct.

Offline sdog

Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2012, 11:49:20 PM »
My suggestion back in the other thread was to change the process and software to enable addon creators to write also a text file with translations. Which in turn can be loaded to translator. This files is bundled with the addon, as the dat file is now. (a second step could perhaps be the possiblity to let makobj create the stringtables out of those files?)

That way it would be made sure that someone who knows what an addon is and cares about it makes sure it gets good translations. (A set of forum threads stickied in the language sections for translation requests could be employed.)

(i re-wrote it as i thought it was lost in the buzz back then and not well written)

Offline prissi

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Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2012, 10:31:14 AM »
I would certainly liek to improve simutranslators. There are also some incosistencies and know problems with it. Also user limiting to add entries and not editing existing ones but only enter suggestions would be a nice add.

Offline isidoro

Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2012, 10:44:40 AM »
A sort of compromise idea:  take the good from both worlds.  Let there persist the present model but add language moderators.  If a language has a language moderator he can fix some translations so that they cannot be changed, or to make approval compulsory in some others, or to let some of them free for anyone to change...

If a language doesn't have a moderator, the model is like today's.

Graphical context information for the tool (some screenshots of the dialogs in the English version) and size tips would also be good, but hard to maintain...

Offline prissi

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Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2012, 11:37:05 AM »
The moderators are already there, there are three level of access. But rights are not granted per object, only per set.

Offline An_dz

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Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2012, 02:46:12 PM »
A sort of compromise idea:  take the good from both worlds.  Let there persist the present model but add language moderators.  If a language has a language moderator he can fix some translations so that they cannot be changed, or to make approval compulsory in some others, or to let some of them free for anyone to change...

If a language doesn't have a moderator, the model is like today's.
That's what I tried to say in my post. But you've gone in modifying the simutranslator engine.

Graphical context information for the tool (some screenshots of the dialogs in the English version) and size tips would also be good, but hard to maintain...
I'm doing something like it here.

Offline prissi

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Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2012, 07:34:16 PM »
Help files get the screenshot of the related dialoges. But those are almost always outdated, since simutrans involves. It is quite time consuming to update everything at once.

If there would be some volunteers for these stuff, this would help a lot. Best some translator ...

Offline Fabio

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Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2012, 09:05:17 PM »
Maybe a crazy idea: a Simutrans branch in which every label and text is turned into a text input field. Translators could run the game and translate on the go.

Offline An_dz

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Re: Translator vs Process
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2012, 08:17:49 PM »
The bad is that some text just appear in special cases, like new monument, an error or problem occur. The translator will miss some of them.