Author Topic: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games  (Read 7350 times)

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Offline Yona-TYT

Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« on: May 09, 2012, 02:15:13 AM »
It is meant to give the player a specific region on the map that only he can manage, may not build or deleting objects in neighboring regions unless you are authorized.

sorry for my English/disculpen mi ingles
I can explain it better in Spanish/lo puedo explicar mejor en español



photo in HD http://www.mediafire.com/i/?jno3cys7b31mv41

« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 03:40:59 AM by IgorEliezer »

Offline IgorEliezer

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Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2012, 03:30:06 AM »
O WAIT!!! I was about to suggest it D:

Just kidding. In fact we had some kind of discussion about it while back.

Quote
My idea is to extend a bit the concept of "label tool", by making a "Name tool", similar to the markers you find in http://wikimapia.org:

- If I want to name a point: click on one tile, type a name in a box, OK.
- If I want to name a path: click on the points of the path (pt1, pt2, pt3, pt4... ptn), type a name, and OK. Useful to name streets, avenues, limits, borders etc.
- If I want to name an area/region: click on the points that make enclosed region (or just a rectangle), type a name, and OK. Useful for blocks, zones, districts etc.

"Name tool" would be a Public service-only tool, because we're going to give names to geographic places. On the other hand, "Label tool" is a player tool, just as it is now.

Along with "Name tool", a "Show/Hide" tool to toggle the labels and markers, and a "List of Named Places", just like "List of Player Signs". The player could access the name tool, but as read-only mode. He can see the names in the game view, he can access the list, but he can't edit it.

Okay, those are some awesome ideas right there. Wow.

We could have countries and states and counties and such...
One of the things I loved about Railraod Tycoon 2 was the territories :)

Speaking of which, when discussing scenarios, the RT2 system was *amazing*. Could be used as a model :)
More with pics: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=8812.msg82389#msg82389

I had read some discussions about "griefing" and people using tracks and placeholders around some areas of the map to protect them from other people or something else, which makes the map look ugly and untidy. As I had said, Simutrans could have a feature that marks or label parts of the map, this part could be a point (tile), a path or polygonal region. These "places" could have some kind of "settable" permission, if they are just visual cues, or places with names, or even they have some kind of protection, by player or admin.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2012, 09:21:40 AM »
There are tracks which look like fences. Maybe the pakset creators can add it as a different way type.
I've been meaning to modify that green fence on the Japanese add-on site to use player colors.

I wouldn't mind having regions as long as you can select to be competitive or cooperative.
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Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall

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Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2012, 09:10:36 PM »
It would be nice to define rights for the territories - which players may build where.

1. Define "home" areas and competitive areas

2. Perhaps define a fee-for-entry...

Offline rsdworker

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2012, 04:58:17 PM »
sounds good - example i have control of one county - example rsdworker has set the rsd county - aj council who oversees it

Offline wlindley

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2012, 05:31:37 PM »
Could this be implemented, by having most of the tiles owned by a player, or a pseudo-player, instead of the orange-or-grey "public" players?

Offline kierongreen

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2012, 05:55:11 PM »
I'd suggest if you are going to the trouble of such a system you make it as flexible as possible - i.e. have a permissions flag for each map tile with bits for each player (with appropriate tools to set for large areas). Combining it with the owner variable leads to a lack of freedom to set overlapping areas for example, as well as interfering with other game behaviour.

Offline AP

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2012, 07:10:00 PM »
The only thing that I'd add is that the territory system, with ridid borders and straight lines is a little artificial, when compared to how transport networks developed for real. In the UK in the 19th century, for instance, private companies were authorised to build from A to B, for instance, then from B to C, B to D etc. The notion of being granted a total monopoly on one county or region is very different to this, and suggests more of a state-enterprise rather than competitive companies.

If however the game could define a corridor of n tiles wide between co-ordinates A and B, and call that a "region", with permission for each region then being granted, that would be far more interesting (non-uniform width corridors would be even better). Obviously regions might well overlap/intersect as Kierongreen says. There might also be a need to allow regions to be edited on-the-fly (if when created they fail to allow for the most sensible route around a mountain or lake, say).

Offline kierongreen

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2012, 08:05:36 PM »
If you have a per-tile permission system for building then how you choose to use that in gameplay is very much still up to the "gamemaster". They could choose whether to define regions or allow routes between particular cities. Really a per-tile permission system is the only way to go as a) it's easy to check in game and b) it allows regions of any shape. The public service player would have to have the ability to edit the permissions in a user-friendly way however (i.e. not one tile at a time!).

Personally I'm more inclined to go for larger regions rather than trying to define routes between cities. Simutrans is by and large a sandbox game, and unduly restricting what people can do I think runs counter to that philosophy.

Offline isidoro

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2012, 09:50:53 PM »
If you give permissions by tiles, do you give permissions for all levels in that tile?

And second, what happens if a player wants to raise or lower the terrain and that means that it would affect other players' tiles?

And third, can other player's bridge span over my tiles?

Offline derajjared

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2012, 10:23:09 PM »
existing rules of this game which prohibits the modification of the land., the amendment only allows for the construction of airport, maritime terminal and the growth of the city., these rules are found in the online forum dae simutrans but nobody helped us up the map to a served a not started the game, and there are 5 players who have selected your region.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/407330385957757/

this is:

rules and specifications: which will have articles as references for better seating plans and knowledge
 
abbreviation: JDER (judges of the region).
 
ARTICLES:
 
1: The player shall be entitled to only one player of the 13 existing simutrans which may put the name you want and finally put the name of the region which are desired and password., The human player is not touches.
 
2: the player will be available for public all players and will be able to do all infrestucturas they want within their regions as stop limits, roads, ports, railroads, airports and cities. (Airports with authorization from the item according JDER 16)
 
3: the limits of the regions will be created by the administrator of the game in progress. in which players may only be limited to creating infrectucturas within their region, to establecerce outside their region will have to be a mutual agreement or treaty with neighboring region or the region in affinity.
 
4: the factories within the city will be able to put the player as you choose.
 
5: for the economy is fair factories outside the city will be requested to JDER https://www.facebook.com/groups/407330385957757/ group in which set out the reasons why this makes you want to install on your region if the majority of judges agree and your neighbor no region produces the same type will give the grant to put the factory.
 
6: oil wells and fields will be set by the administrator in cases of oil wells and the owner will only be able to exploit its oil region.en the owner of the offshore case of all countries that have coasts and maritime located around the reservoir will be able to exploit it (all with permission to JDER). countries to more than two regions away not allow its exploitation of oil.
 
7: each region may create cities or towns that want within their region putting the name of the region followed by the name of the city. example: san juan Abasolo. cordoba Abasolo. Santo Domingo Abasolo. in which Abasolo is the name of the region., as in the name of the player. that region to identify the player.
 
8: all treaties carried out either commercial or passenger whether or import or export of any kind made by region are plowed in writing on the wall of this group https://www.facebook.com/groups/407330385957757 /: example:
regionalization of Abasolo asked toluca wing region you want who cares cars, its manufactures like gasoline exportarle desire, and our airline wants to have a path to your x city., and if the other region will be able to accept your treaties create necessary routes.
 
9: to communicate region with another region will carry out a treaty to which the region asked to be allowed to communicate with your regions of the, and we made the treaty with a marker marcaras your limit by dnd to communicate via either the road or train and the leaders of the regions created their own roads as they see plasca.
 
10: you will be able to bring lawsuits against regions if the president violates the rules brought some demand here is plowed into the wall of this group and will be held the analizacion the matter.
 
11: it may sue the president in some region if this created some kind of infrectustructura within any region that does not belong or believe a route that invades other regions which have not treated and punished with the penalty wing region that is would prohibit public access to the player. depending on the sanctions:
 
will be established at trial three types of cases:
lesser sanction: a week of public player lockout.
sanction media: fifteen days of blocking public player.
greater sanction: a month player lockout public.
and may aver more sanctions according to the judges decide.
 
12: The jury will have 3 judges called (JDER) which deciciones taken either in lawsuits or penalties and actions in which they are requested., In the most serious dnd 2-1 either for or against., time limits on claims are at most 24 hours jues having voted a resolution that will be situated been in favor or against.
 
13: efectuarce transportation if the agreement or treaty also specify that the product of export or import shall be carried to the destination or to a point or at the border or put 50% of the fleet each region. so it is important that stops cargo and passengers to make them public to the player when you are treated all players can access the product or stop wing.
 
14: Cross-regional players or companies may be installed in other regions provided you have permission from the region to exploit by means of a treaty either that the region does not have enough money to exploit it for the same or affinity between the areas.
 
15: all treaties or requests will take place in this group esepcion https://www.facebook.com/groups/407330385957757/ without any. if not plowed to a certain creditor sanctions.
 
16: aeropueros in the case of these not all cities will have an aero creditors of this port is plowed by a petition dnd judges (JDER) depending on your votes will decide if the city is already suitable to have an airport. 2 of 3 judges must favor to authorize the wing region to create an airport in your city.
 
17: igresar to the game online in Spanish must have a facebook account where it will ask to be added to this group and have to be playing an active chat that this will be the means of communication between the leaders of the regions.
 
18: regional boundaries will be able to be rivers, fences, tree lines or stretch of coastline, is sanctioned with the sanction greater than exists if some player modifies or destroys or changes the existing border, will only be possible modification of the frontier where there is a road or railway line provided there is a treaty between the two existing regions and this to both JDER, in the case of the coastal strip will be also be modified as long as you report to JDER and permission shall extend only exists dnd city ​​or by building a maritime terminal only.
 
19: be punished with the sanction greater than anyone who uses public indevido player, as the mark on some items of these rules.
 
20: the 13 existing regions on the map will be distributed to players under vallan adding players, here in this group published a map of the 13 regions in the comments section you will be asked to equip them with a region dnd will endow from 1 wing 13.conforme vallan ordering them.


Offline kierongreen

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2012, 06:15:57 AM »
Quote
If you give permissions by tiles, do you give permissions for all levels in that tile?
I would suggest yes.

Quote
And second, what happens if a player wants to raise or lower the terrain and that means that it would affect other players' tiles?
I would suggest that no, terrain modification should only be allowed if the player has permission over all affected tiles.

Quote
And third, can other player's bridge span over my tiles?
I would suggest no (as permission affects all heights of a tile).

Offline Ters

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Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2012, 08:34:34 AM »
The only thing that I'd add is that the territory system, with ridid borders and straight lines is a little artificial, when compared to how transport networks developed for real. In the UK in the 19th century, for instance, private companies were authorised to build from A to B, for instance, then from B to C, B to D etc. The notion of being granted a total monopoly on one county or region is very different to this, and suggests more of a state-enterprise rather than competitive companies.

I think this goes for most European countries, but changed over time. At some point, almost the entire rail system became a state owned monopoly. Now it's mostly back to more or less private companies, but I think it's normal for the state to retain ownership of the infrastructure. So in modern times, you wouldn't be asking for rights to lay tracks in a region, but to run trains either on specific lines, or on the entire network. I have no idea what would happen if a train operator wanted to run a service where there are no existing rail lines.

Offline el_slapper

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2012, 08:28:46 AM »
(.../...). I have no idea what would happen if a train operator wanted to run a service where there are no existing rail lines.

Good question. In France, we have a private operator who began operating night trains on SNCF(national company) lines, but that's all. It's tough to imagine anyone trying to build a new line - we have a very good network, & the tendancy is more towards closing a few lines than opening new ones.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2012, 09:08:07 AM »
The might be some lines in Project Financing, where the building initiative comes from the private operators, but I don't know of any railway line built this way, only motorways and city subways.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2012, 10:59:40 AM »
There are tracks which look like fences. Maybe the pakset creators can add it as a different way type.
I've been meaning to modify that green fence on the Japanese add-on site to use player colors.

I wouldn't mind having regions as long as you can select to be competitive or cooperative.


keeping my word, here is a player colour fence for 128 tile size. I'm sure it won't be out of place in any pakset, so as long as the way type is changed to something other than track. I modified the fence from the simutrans jp addon site. Originally made by MMSomething. There were some stray pixels in the original, so I touched them up.
ummm, I assume, that since the sources were posted up, that MMSomething wouldn't mind someone modifying it.

pak + sources included
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17111233/Player_Colour_Fence.rar
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 11:31:52 AM by ӔO »
My Sketchup open project sources
various projects rolled up: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17111233/Roll_up.rar

Colour safe chart:

Offline Yona-TYT

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2012, 03:48:11 PM »
It would be nice if we apply this option in an upcoming release.


Offline IgorEliezer

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Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2012, 04:52:38 PM »
Surely, but first this feature needs to be implemented. And I don't know if a coder has done something about this, although having considerable acceptance by the members.

Offline Yona-TYT

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2012, 02:50:16 PM »
ok
greetings ----> :D <----

Offline Dwachs

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Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2012, 05:46:23 AM »
This is / will be possible with scripted scenarios ...

http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=8947.0

If somebody could point me to a map/savegame with a description of territories, I could create an example script.
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Offline An_dz

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Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2012, 02:26:46 PM »
Everything now will be possible with scripted scenarios?
Because that's the 4th time I'm reading this kind of message. :D ;D

Good job Dwachs.

Offline Dwachs

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Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2012, 03:06:27 PM »
Everything now will be possible with scripted scenarios?
Everything ... and more ... when finished ^^
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Offline Yona-TYT

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2012, 03:51:23 PM »

this idea has any future?


or be discarded?

Offline colonyan

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2012, 10:23:51 PM »
Standing on visual side, can we make so cities in different region uses pak file maker designated city building, ground object and trees? Currently only terrain height is judging which citybuilding, ground object and trees are used/spawned. This will create more sense of visual variation not only bound on height but the x y axis of the map.

+ Oops. I just noticed it was for online games.
++ For an example, on western side, French style buildings are more dominant and on eastern side of the map, German styles are.

Offline kierongreen

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2012, 10:30:54 PM »
Quote
Standing on visual side, can we make so cities in different region uses pak file maker designated city building, ground object and trees? Currently only terrain height is judging which citybuilding, ground object and trees are used/spawned. This will create more sense of visual variation not only bound on height but the x y axis of the map.
Per tile climates are being discussed and are at a very early stage of implementation, and would allow this.

Offline colonyan

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2012, 10:57:31 PM »
Per tile climates are being discussed and are at a very early stage of implementation, and would allow this.
Good news of the day #1. :)

Offline rsdworker

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2012, 10:58:51 PM »
great sounds good i hope i can make own area with access controls

Offline IgorEliezer

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Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2016, 12:09:47 AM »
I'm glad to see there's something about this featured being implemented, in a way or another: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=15388.msg152110#msg152110

 ^-^

Offline Yona-TYT

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2016, 01:37:21 AM »

After so long, finally is could to achieve, I hope that many people like this. :thumbsup:


I would also like to add other details, but I am limited by the script functions I'm afraid.  :-[


Offline DrSuperGood

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2016, 05:24:23 AM »
In theory if one was to break the world up into non-regular rectangles with an algorithm one could implement regions. These rectangles could be managed with some kind of space-orientated data structure such as a quad tree so have no per-tile storage requirement. Each rectangular region would be its own object and could contain properties such as various per-player permission flags, climate details, content hits or really any other kind of data. Such rectangles could also be subject to dynamic merger or sub-division based on requirements (start out big, get smaller as map builds up).

Cities and industry could be changed to take advantage of such rectangles. For example a city no longer has a boundary but instead is a collection of these rectangular regions (solves overlap problem, solves rectangle city problem). Industries could be limited to 1 per region (solves overpacking of industries) and city based industries could be given accompanying building selection (more realistic city layout, a supermarket is surrounded by what appear to be other shops rather than mixed with houses or skyscrapers). The big rectangles between cities could populate with procedurally generated clutter removing the need to inefficiently save such clutter (solves empty world problem, solves tree storage problem).

Performance wise only player issued construction and automatic industry placement/city expansion would need to lookup or produce these rectangular regions. More common ones such as city growth or climate change could be done with direct reference to the region itself. As such performance impact should be trivial. Memory impact should also be quite small, even if the rectangular regions contain quite a bit of state, since they represent large areas of the map and so there are orders of magnitude fewer of them than there are tiles.

Offline Dwachs

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Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2016, 03:38:01 PM »
I would also like to add other details, but I am limited by the script functions I'm afraid.  :-[

Which one? Please feel free to open some extension requests.
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Offline Yona-TYT

Re: Territories: Map divided into regions for online games
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2016, 05:36:57 PM »
Had mentioned one by here... http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=15388.msg152149#msg152149
You might want to send to requests for extention?.