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Offline ӔO

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pakBox
« on: May 28, 2012, 08:42:53 PM »
I am currently working on an entirely new pakset.

It is sort of a sandbox to play in.
Most graphics will be represented as colourful boxes.

You can check the current progress here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uwjsvb2gegmgfqs/gKumhhXZpk
I will update the "pakbox_data.rar" file every time I add something.


The main differences of this pakset
  • Make extensive use of experimental features
  • Large variety of vehicles with real life counterparts
  • At least 3 different varieties of colour schemes for each vehicle
  • More way types than other paksets, mainly rail
  • Complex upgrade paths for vehicles and ways
  • Attempt to illustrate competition and rivalry between player companies and manufacturer companies
  • Intricate, close to real life, factory chains
  • At least 60 different goods and at least 10 goods types
  • Attempt to have good balance between various transportation businesses
  • User interface will attempt to be friendlier to colour blind users and touch devices
  • Attempt to have a good scale for vehicles and buildings
  • Attempt to have an easy to work with alignment for graphics
Current status:
  • Tile size will be 160 half height. A tile will visually represent 20m^2 and be 320m^2 in game.
  • Vehicles longer than 20m will be drawn to 200 or 320 pixel size. Or even larger if necessary.
  • Icons will be 96x64 pixels, most likely
  • I'm still pondering about what scale to use. A larger tile size, 32m^2, allows for most vehicles to fit inside the tile, but the sides become rather enormous. A smaller tile size of 6.4m^2 allows for a more realistic scale, but almost all vehicles would be severely long. I might go for 16m^2, because it should be a decent compromise and because that's the same number vehicle length is represented in the dat files.
  • List of vehicles and way types is not yet complete. I haven't even started the upgrade paths for many of the vehicles. Currently, start date is somewhere in 1950~60, with no particular end date in mind. I might work backwards as well, probably back in time to around 1900~1910.
  • Partially completed data for trucks, buses and vans for one company.
  • Partially completed goods list.
Currently planned way types and electrification or power types:
  • Road + 600VDC, 750VDC
  • Standard rail + 600VDC 3rd, 600VDC overhead, 750VDC 3rd, 750VDC overhead, 1500VDC, 3000VDC, 15kVAC, 25kVAC, 50kVAC
  • Standard LRT + 600VDC overhead, 750VDC overhead, Cable, Rack/Geared
  • Narrow rail + 600VDC 3rd, 600VDC overhead, 750VDC 3rd, 750VDC overhead, 1500VDC, 3000VDC, 15kVAC, 25kVAC, 50kVAC
  • Narrow LRT + 600VDC overhead, 750VDC overhead, Cable, Rack/Geared
  • Special rail + Dual track rubber tyre, Single track rubber tyre
  • Maglev + EDS & EMS types
  • Monorail + Safege, Alweg & Lockheed types
  • Pipeline
  • Powerline
  • Waterway
  • Airway
Over 180 goods types in approximately 18 categories:
  • Passenger
  • Mail
  • Piece goods
  • Cooled piece goods
  • Bulky piece goods
  • Bulk goods
  • Dry bulk goods
  • Bulk fluids (oil products)
  • Pressurized liquid gas
  • Cooled fluids
  • Lumber goods
  • Farm goods
  • Automobiles
  • Metal coil goods
  • Livestock goods
  • Over sized goods
  • Super sized goods
  • Ultra sized goods
  • Hazardous goods
Obviously, the graphics will be a bit more detailed than this, but not by much.
One major difference will be how roads are elevated to the same level as tracks. This eliminates alignment problems between tram tracks and rail at transition points.


First example is for a 32m^2 tile


Second example is for 6.4m^2 tile



factory chain and goods list (incomplete)

« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 08:51:52 AM by ӔO »
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Offline Lubak91

Re: pakBox
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2012, 09:14:40 PM »
We want 3000 V DC and rack rail ;D

And still first class cars, restaurant cars, sleeping cars...
So, let me get this straight. You want to fly on a magic carpet to see the King of the Potato People and plead with him for your freedom, and you're telling me you are completely sane?!

Offline ӔO

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2012, 09:22:39 PM »
We want 3000 V DC and rack rail ;D

And still first class cars, restaurant cars, sleeping cars...

3000VDC added.
'Rack' was 'geared traction', I just had it in the wrong place :D

First, second, restaurant and sleeping cars will be included, no worries. The only hard part is adjusting their comfort values.
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Offline greenling

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2012, 09:32:03 PM »
aeo
I miss 15KVAC,25KVAC,4 System Vehicles,3 System Vehicles,2 system Vehicles.Push und pull Trains.
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Offline ӔO

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2012, 09:37:04 PM »
Did I type 1.5kVAC and 2.5kVAC?
I meant, 15kVAC and 25kVAC. oops :p

No worries for vehicles, there will be an extensive selection taken from around the world. The list is simply not finished
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Offline Lubak91

Re: pakBox
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2012, 09:52:34 PM »
ӔO: OK ;)
And what couplers? Eg normal with screw or automatic. Now we need write in .dat all vehicles with which it want join...
So, let me get this straight. You want to fly on a magic carpet to see the King of the Potato People and plead with him for your freedom, and you're telling me you are completely sane?!

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2012, 10:37:25 PM »
Don't forget road trains! :)

The 6.5m looks very interesting, except... cities will look odd with 1 tile houses, yes? heh. But otherwise, it would be very interesting to play with. I guess you'd have to use one-way signs everywhere since the tiles are one lane wide? But you could make some amazing networks. heh.

Either way, sounds like a lot of work, but very interesting to see and play with. :)

Offline ӔO

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2012, 11:16:59 PM »
For couplers, I have 3~4 systems planned and they'll only allow coupling with like units. This is to simulate how you have different companies vying for different standards. Then there will also be vehicles that have universal standards, like the majority of semi-trailers. Converters will be included too.

Freight will only connect with freight, and pax will only connect with pax. However, multipurpose locomotives with push-pull in mind will have their own coaches. Then there will be 2 or 3 different systems for multiple units.

Road trains are also part of the plan. I intend to have a nice selection from scooter to road train.


The vehicles won't be 100% analogous to their real life counter parts. This is because world wide standards are not the same. However, having a large selection of vehicles to choose from your preferred fictional maker is intended. All companies and products will be fictitious, but you can sort of guess their real name.

There will also be vehicles that don't exist yet or at all, depending on deficiencies from the real stuff.


As a general rule for all vehicles, there will be a product cycle.
Prototype or experimental unit
Initial batch
Revised or Refined batches
New generation
Upgraded or Modified from existing
etc.

Depending on the batch, there will be various perks or flaws, which might later have an upgrade to fix it. Generally, most batches will only have a 5~7yr life before it is retired and the next batch is made.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 11:25:18 PM by ӔO »
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Re: pakBox
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2012, 11:49:39 PM »
Intriguing!
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Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2012, 01:34:53 AM »
Prissi mentioned before that road trains were limited to four vehicles (i.e. truck + 3 trailers) --- but trivial to change in the code. Might be worth seeing if there can be a pak-specific parameter somewhere to allow for longer convois..... :)

Offline Dwachs

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2012, 07:42:33 AM »
Road trains are bound to straight roads imho. It would look odd if a 8-vehicle road train drives around corners in cities.
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Re: pakBox
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2012, 10:46:21 AM »
While I agree, the same problem exists with rail. You can choose to make a twisty-turny train network. But also, each tile also represents 1km, so it's always a compromise. But I feel that should be up to the player. :)

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2012, 10:54:51 AM »
...But also, each tile also represents 1km...

Not necessarily in Experimental...
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Offline Lubak91

Re: pakBox
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2012, 11:29:39 AM »
And when about could be done experimental version with these modifications? I would like do Czech pak128 (alias pak with most rail addons ;) [experimental] with these features...
So, let me get this straight. You want to fly on a magic carpet to see the King of the Potato People and plead with him for your freedom, and you're telling me you are completely sane?!

Offline ӔO

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2012, 02:47:06 PM »
Road trains are bound to straight roads imho. It would look odd if a 8-vehicle road train drives around corners in cities.
no worries on that. Some minor tweaks with weight limits to limit the trucks to lighter models can be easily implemented.

personally, I would like at least 5, but 8 would not be bad either.


okay, I am going for a 16m^2 tile. Quite a few vehicles will be longer than the tile, but it seems to work okay for pak128 japan and it's easier to do the lengths this way.

Most buses would be 1 tile long, but articulated buses and trams would be 2, maybe even 3 tiles long.

-----------

Still undecided on what tile height to use. Full height is slightly too short for 6.15m double stack cars, while 2/3 is slightly too short for anything over 3.8m. 1/2 height is too short for anything. Paksize will be a mix. Vehicles obviously need to be larger than building tiles, because they will be longer, but how large and how much detail can be added later, I'm undecided. Most likely it will be 128/192.


« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 08:19:38 PM by ӔO »
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Offline greenling

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2012, 08:41:12 PM »
Aeo
Kombi. for passengers and post have goves in germany.
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Re: pakBox
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2012, 08:59:54 PM »
thanks greenling.
mail wagons and passenger wagons for select DMU and EMU will be put in.
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Offline Fabio

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2012, 10:51:13 PM »
The concept of this pakset is simply amazing! I just love it, it seems out of the blueprints of architects and urbanists...
Will there be a port for standard as well?

Offline ӔO

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2012, 10:58:47 PM »
The concept of this pakset is simply amazing! I just love it, it seems out of the blueprints of architects and urbanists...
Will there be a port for standard as well?

I don't see why not.

The plan is to make use of simple models that are easy to modify so that a large variety can be easily made. I recall some people mentioning an easy way to extract excel/OO math spread sheet into dat files. That would speed things up substantially too. Everything will be free and open as well, so I doubt it would be too hard to convert back into standard.


---

P.S. If anyone has any more ideas for the goods list, I would be more than happy to hear them.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 11:05:26 PM by ӔO »
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Re: pakBox
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2012, 12:20:42 AM »
not much progress.

Maximum loading gauge established for most vehicles and way types. This is, mainly, so that I have an easy spreadsheet to refer to when setting up the limitations and restrictions on various categories of vehicles. It also gives an interesting insight into why your local vehicles are designed the way they are. The restrictions are pretty lenient and simplified.

Quote from: Government of Poxus, Ministry of Transport
We might be in an alternate dimension, but that doesn't mean we don't have rules and regulations. Here, these are our rules regarding what you may import and use from earth.

Road CategoryGVWRGCWRHeightWidthLength singleLength combinedSpeed
City20t20t4.4m2.6m14m*16m40km/h
Rural18t80t4.4m2.6m14m40m80km/h
Highway25t160t4.4m2.6m16m54m200km/h**
Rail Category
Tram20t80t4.4m2.6m12m80m100km/h
Narrow Railn/an/a4.7m***3m26m***n/a200km/h
Standard Railn/an/a6.25m****3.4m28m****n/a480km/h
Monorail20tn/a4.1m3m20mn/a100km/h
Maglevn/an/a4.7m3.7m28mn/an/a
*: Goods trucks may only be 12m long. Buses are permitted to be 14m long.
** : Only vehicles under 4t total permitted to go above 120km/h
***:  Only vehicles under 4.1m height and 24m length permitted to go above 100km/h
****: Only vehicles under 5m height and 25m length permitted to go above 100km/h

Front overhang for trucks and buses may be up to 1m.
Rear overhang for trucks and buses may be up to 4m.

We hope this is to your liking.
Thank you, have a nice day.




Started off with a few popular road vehicles. The FIO E/F series of trucks and vans and HOT Cup scooters. Yes, that is about as much detail that will go into these vehicles. I'm still undecided if I want to add windows or not. They are supposed to look like they came from a toy box.



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Offline ӔO

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2012, 03:26:06 AM »
instead of 16m^2, I've bumped it up (or down, in terms of how large the graphics will be) to 20m^2 due to height and width considerations on diagonals.
I will be using half-height. I thought of using 3/4 height, which offers a near perfect height, but decided against it because it doesn't round well in division, 1/0.75.

I'm sure there will be clipping errors or odd graphics, but that may be solved in the future with a height parameter.
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Offline rsdworker

Re: pakBox
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2012, 10:53:49 PM »
looks interesting - i like it so what about underground?

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2012, 02:59:55 AM »
underground is rounded up together with LRT. There will be both narrow and standard gauge selections.

For tunnels, in general, I was looking at something like 8x to 20x the cost of an equivalent ground way.
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Re: pakBox
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2012, 11:01:36 PM »
I'm currently pondering rolling up narrow and standard gauge into one way type that is separated by constraints.
+ It should be possible to run dual gauge, assuming you can use permissive twice.
- The menu would be super crowded

If they are used separately
+ Menu will not be as cluttered
- Cannot run dual gauge

----------------

I will be using narrow and standard rail types together unless I run into problems with permissive/prohibitive.
Due to slight issue with number of permissive electrification types, rack, cable, 3000VDC and 50kVAC will be on hold. However, they are not cancelled.

----------------

.dat files for roads and tracks are mostly done. They only need the proper images.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 12:33:12 PM by ӔO »
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Offline colonyan

Re: pakBox
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2012, 01:47:39 PM »
Hmm. Are we seeing some small burst of new pak set launch? I'm working on mine since few weeks. pakBox looks interesting. Isn't people working on too many project? Maybe joint project might speed up things.

Atleast AEO has clear idea on what he is aiming at.
I have some general direction but not confident enough to present yet.

Anyways it is very good to see constant activities on all corner.
Cheers!

Offline ӔO

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2012, 01:57:12 PM »
Hmm. Are we seeing some small burst of new pak set launch? I'm working on mine since few weeks. pakBox looks interesting. Isn't people working on too many project? Maybe joint project might speed up things.

Atleast AEO has clear idea on what he is aiming at.
I have some general direction but not confident enough to present yet.

Anyways it is very good to see constant activities on all corner.
Cheers!

Well, I would be delighted to work together :)
This project is still in its infancy, so there are plenty of places that can be cooperated on.

I do have this an online backup of my current progress, if you are interested: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17111233/pakbox_data.rar
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Offline colonyan

Re: pakBox
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2012, 02:04:50 PM »
It would be real nice for me to be able to accelerate the progress.
Just that from what I see, pakBox is directed at very diffent way from mine.
Unless you are not absolutely determined graphic must look box or pak set name is fix with pakBox, maybe we can work something out? I might be able to supply new graphics mainly.

Should we talk on personal message instead if you are interested?
If we arrive to agree upon, we could make this a joint project for a while, or as long as it goes on.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 02:10:58 PM by colonyan »

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2012, 09:14:29 AM »
Worked on trucks, trailers, ISO containers and goods list. Most of the trucks and trailers are just floor plans, but some were completed.


I worked out a relatively easy way of joining up the trucks and trailers without having a crazy list of constraints for each truck and trailer.

Each semi-truck will use either 30", 36" or 63" kingpins and each trailer may only use one type of kingpin. Some trucks and trailers may use dollies for additional trailers. Some trucks and buses, generally the smaller ones, may use hitches for hitch trailers.


Trains will use a similar system to connect dissimilar or same couplings. In general, to keep things simple, they will only be usable at the front and rear of complete units. If I can use negative comfort, the couplings will have it, because dissimilar power/torque/weight units generally don't work well together. Same units will be able to connect to each other without this penalty.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 09:19:47 AM by ӔO »
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Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2012, 03:34:39 PM »
Okay, we TOTALLY need longer convois since the dollies/bogeys will count in the convoi count!

I can totally see:

[ Truck | trailer | bogey | trailer | bogey | trailer ] for a relatively normal truck - in the US everywhere two short trailers are legal; in the Pacific Northwest, a long trailer + short trailer or three short trailers are legal. So that's six right there. hehe.

And I'd love to see real road trains - sure, only used on long straights, but... have you see what they pull of in Australia? 20+ trailers? I'd love to be able to have 8-10 trailers. hehe.

Offline rsdworker

Re: pakBox
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2012, 04:57:39 PM »
UK has simllar BUT limited to Two trailers eg two long trailers

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2012, 09:55:05 PM »
Okay, we TOTALLY need longer convois since the dollies/bogeys will count in the convoi count!

Hmm - had better change this for the next release of Experimental. The current maximum for non-rail vehicles is 4 (including the towing unit). Should we permit 8?
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Re: pakBox
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2012, 12:38:08 AM »
I haven't fully worked out how to connect 2nd, 3rd and 4th trailers, but if I use the universal coupling, the minimum would be 9 pieces for a quad.

truck+(coupling+trailer)+(coupling+trailer)+(coupling+trailer)+(coupling+trailer)

12 should cover most bases, but I can work with 8.


also 12 would be nice for way_constraint_permissive/prohibitive.

Currently, I have this:
Code: [Select]
prohibitive
0= standard rail
1= narrow rail
2= light vehicle
3= unimproved/off road
4= single guide rail rubber tyre lrt
5= dual guide rail rubber tyre lrt
6= monorail SAFEGE
7= monorail ALWEG
8= monorail lockheed
9= maglev EDS
10= maglev EMS
11= pipeline

permissive
0= oversized
1= 3rd 600vdc
2= 3rd 750vdc
3= cat 600vdc
4= cat 750vdc
5= cat 1500vdc
6= cat 3000vdc
7= 15kvac
8= 25kvac
9= 50kvac
10= cable car
11= gear/rack


Today, all I did was make a russian/soviet truck, ural-4320. Probably will be fairly popular on unmaintained road type.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 12:54:32 AM by ӔO »
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Re: pakBox
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2012, 05:28:16 PM »
some progress.

from front to back, dirt road, rural road and city road



front to back, freightliner step van XL, hino light semi truck, medium rigid truck, ural 4320 trucks



goods list and menu buttons in the works.
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Re: pakBox
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2012, 11:56:55 PM »
Nice progress!

Out of interest - under what licence will this be released, and have you managed to render Makeobj compatible .pngs from these yet?
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Re: pakBox
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2012, 12:32:04 AM »
license will be completely free.

First, I intend to design the new menu buttons, then some ways (most likely road will be first) and finally some vehicles (also road).
No other pak uses 160 pixel tile sets, so it would be a bit odd trying to load them into other paks to test them out.

For some reason, every time I open up gimp, it sucks the life out of me. Not entirely sure why. :D
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Re: pakBox
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2012, 10:02:15 AM »
AEO, do you have any particular problem with Gimp? I could see if I can help with some in my companion scripts suite...

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Re: pakBox
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2012, 06:37:05 PM »
AEO, do you have any particular problem with Gimp? I could see if I can help with some in my companion scripts suite...

thanks fabio.
What would be helpful, is an additional 160 tile size to the simutrans tool. A proper grid that distinguishes borders between tiles and an alignment layer of the actual in-game tile, like you see on alignment templates.

I know this is one of those horrible gimp usability problems, but the layers aren't resized when selecting a tile size in the simutrans tools.


also, me updating to the latest version might be helpful  :exclaim:

----

hopefully these icons are obvious in their use.

 

In case they are not, left to right
narrow gauge tunnel
standard gauge elevated
road bridge
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 09:46:24 PM by ӔO »
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Re: pakBox
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2012, 06:26:36 PM »
A small comment on the narrow gauge button: to make it look more like actual narrow gauge, you could double the spacing between the sleepers (otherwise one can only tell that it's narrow gauge by comparing it with standard gauge).
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Re: pakBox
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2012, 07:06:46 AM »
Good suggestion. It's easier to distinguish between the two.


Not to tease, but just to show I am still working on it.


at the very least, there will be tons of data and 3d models.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 09:21:11 AM by ӔO »
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