Author Topic: Pak128 Road Toll + Public Service earn money  (Read 4637 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Commander Noddy

Pak128 Road Toll + Public Service earn money
« on: July 24, 2015, 01:49:44 PM »
Hi everyone. Same as the title, I would to like to ask what is the road toll for? I have tried to search the forum and find that when A company's convoys passed through B company's road, a toll will be charged from Company B to Company A.
I tried to test if whether it works or nor. However, no road toll earn from that:(
Can anyone teach me how to earn road toll?

Seconds question: I would like to ask how can public service earn moeny? Since public service cannot build convoys, which earning money from that. Therefore, I found confused about earning money with using public service.

Thx for reading my question.

May The Force Be With You Always!

Offline Spenk009

Re: Pak128 Road Toll + Public Service earn money
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2015, 02:43:04 PM »
If any vehicle travels over player owned ways (roads, railways, etc.), they pay a small fee for going over the way tile/square. It's a very small amount, so actually earning money from it is difficult.

The public service player is not meant to be played. They don't earn money aside from possible tolls.

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: Pak128 Road Toll + Public Service earn money
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2015, 03:26:19 PM »
Be aware that city roads, generated roads and bankrupt player roads are owned by "null" player and so no toll is charged to use them. Only roads explicitly produced by the public service provider (or made public) get a toll because the public service provider is a player.

In the long term I think the null player should be removed, with the public service provider owning everything so that all roads that you do not own will charge toll.

Offline Vladki

Re: Pak128 Road Toll + Public Service earn money
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2015, 03:58:38 PM »
The amount of toll is configurable. But I do not remember the exact option.

Public player can build power lines and earn some money that way.

Offline Commander Noddy

Re: Pak128 Road Toll + Public Service earn money
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2015, 04:07:28 PM »
Be aware that city roads, generated roads and bankrupt player roads are owned by "null" player and so no toll is charged to use them. Only roads explicitly produced by the public service provider (or made public) get a toll because the public service provider is a player.

In the long term I think the null player should be removed, with the public service provider owning everything so that all roads that you do not own will charge toll.
Sorry its seems I am nobb to understand that. Would you explain clearly :P?

May The Force Be With You Always!

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: Pak128 Road Toll + Public Service earn money
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2015, 12:39:34 AM »
Quote
Sorry its seems I am nobb to understand that. Would you explain clearly :P
Basically, there is a hidden player "null" which is used for city roads and inherits roads from bankrupt companies. Since this is not a player it does not charge toll so basically the roads are both maintained and used for free.

The only way to get "null" owned ways other than the automatic city streets is by placing them with a non public service company and making it go bankrupt. For tunnels, bridges, elevated ways and non-roads there has to be another company vehicle on the way at the time otherwise it will be removed.

Public service provider cannot build null ways as he will always own them (and so earn toll from them and pay their upkeep). He can build null owned structures if I recall. With ownership overlay turned on you can spot "null" owned ways by them not having an ownership overlay colour and instead looking normal. Public service ways will be tinted grey/white.

Since nothing should be free it would eventually be a good idea to abolish null ownership and instead give everything to the public service provider. That way using city streets can cost toll (makes sense, helps maintain them) and it is not free to use the roads from bankrupt companies. It also opens up the potential for better economic balance with the public service provider, something experimental aims for but would also fit in standard with a slightly different implementation.

Offline Commander Noddy

Re: Pak128 Road Toll + Public Service earn money
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2015, 02:40:16 AM »
Basically, there is a hidden player "null" which is used for city roads and inherits roads from bankrupt companies. Since this is not a player it does not charge toll so basically the roads are both maintained and used for free.

The only way to get "null" owned ways other than the automatic city streets is by placing them with a non public service company and making it go bankrupt. For tunnels, bridges, elevated ways and non-roads there has to be another company vehicle on the way at the time otherwise it will be removed.

Public service provider cannot build null ways as he will always own them (and so earn toll from them and pay their upkeep). He can build null owned structures if I recall. With ownership overlay turned on you can spot "null" owned ways by them not having an ownership overlay colour and instead looking normal. Public service ways will be tinted grey/white.

Since nothing should be free it would eventually be a good idea to abolish null ownership and instead give everything to the public service provider. That way using city streets can cost toll (makes sense, helps maintain them) and it is not free to use the roads from bankrupt companies. It also opens up the potential for better economic balance with the public service provider, something experimental aims for but would also fit in standard with a slightly different implementation.
That means I have to make Company A bankrupt in order to gain road toll, isn't it?

May The Force Be With You Always!

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: Pak128 Road Toll + Public Service earn money
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2015, 04:36:27 AM »
Quote
That means I have to make Company A bankrupt in order to gain road toll, isn't it?
Road toll is paid based on the gameplay constants to the owner of the way. In order for you to gain toll you need to own the way.

There are some special ways on the map owned by the "null" player (no owner). These will not charge you toll no matter the gameplay constants because they have no owner. City streets are the most common example of such ways.

Offline Commander Noddy

Re: Pak128 Road Toll + Public Service earn money
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2015, 08:30:35 AM »
I finally found why there no road toll. It is because the default setting of road toll is 0 in simuconfig.tab:P

# if a convoy runs on a way that belongs to another player, toll may
# be charged. The number given is the percentage of the running cost
# of the convoy or the way cost (include electrification if needed).
# (default 0)
toll_runningcost_percentage = 0
toll_waycost_percentage = 0

May The Force Be With You Always!

Offline stevenlim84

Re: Pak128 Road Toll + Public Service earn money
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2015, 01:54:19 PM »
I will say playing with road roll is quite good. My usual setting is running cost 100% and way cost 10%. When the road/railway/canal is properly used, public player can earn some money. In some case, it can be quite profitable for public player own a busy PAX railway/road or an important canal or medium use airport.

I agree the idea of having public player owning the property originally owned by "without owner".

I suggest the concept of road toll should go further to cover station usage. This part is especially important for sea transport. Player is paying nothing for using the pier. There is no way for public to collect the maintenance fee from those player as the sea is free to use.

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: Pak128 Road Toll + Public Service earn money
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2015, 01:06:07 AM »
Quote
My usual setting is running cost 100% and way cost 10%
On pak64 this would be impossible to play with since running costs are >>50% of the income.

There needs to be some sort of more dynamic toll. Specifically railways should cost more per train than roads because a road can see more traffic per month than a railway (many small things vs few large things). The best would be a percentage of way cost that scales based on road type. Faster roads should cost less % toll per vehicle since they should be seeing more traffic per month.

Quote
suggest the concept of road toll should go further to cover station usage. This part is especially important for sea transport. Player is paying nothing for using the pier. There is no way for public to collect the maintenance fee from those player as the sea is free to use.
I agree but the problem is tolling players fairly and efficiently. If you are a small company running busses to a public hub you should pay less toll than someone running a couple of highly profitable aircraft since you are making a lot less than them. Even though the bus player runs more convoys per month, he makes less so it should be reflected on his toll paid (since he is not making as much money from the hub).

Public service actually needs dynamic toll so it never runs in red (or only shortly does). First it should be paid a flat amount per civilian per year. This reflects tax and is used to upkeep city streets. Depending on transport percentage (mail and passengers) this may decrease over time since if 100% of passengers and mail are moved then only the transport companies are using the roads so should have to foot pretty much the entire bill. This also means that at the start players will be taxed very little with the public footing all the bill (good game progression). Then sets the player tax rate based on how much it is costing per month and how much tax can potentially bring in.

Under this model stations should suffer transfer fees based on the profit being earned and the total being spent on stop maintenance. Way usage costs are adjusted to break even with way maintenance costs and the actual toll per tile is weighted based on reasonable way traffic (a rail will have a lot higher per convoy cost than a road since roads usually can support more convoys per month as road convoys are shorter). Way maintenance is supported by citizen tax first (so using public ways at first is mostly free, going much higher late game when most passengers and mail are moved), but stop maintenance is 100% funded by usage (no free stops, people who use them have to pay).

To implement this I would recommend new metrics to stops such as "incoming" and "outgoing" profit. Toll for stop usage is then based on profit (revenue for trip - amount spent getting there) The toll rate would then be split between the two of those metrics based on weight for all public stops (so that people always pay to use them, not only in one direction to prevent exploit). Negative profit (loss) for a journey is not taxed. Profit has to be taxed for toll because otherwise, if revenue was used, unprofitable lines which barely broke even might make a loss due to a lot of infrastructure for a few very profitable lines.

Offline Commander Noddy

Re: Pak128 Road Toll + Public Service earn money
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2015, 01:22:28 PM »
I suggest the concept of road toll should go further to cover station usage. This part is especially important for sea transport. Player is paying nothing for using the pier. There is no way for public to collect the maintenance fee from those player as the sea is free to use.

I totally agree with your concept:) Well, station are usually built by public service (what I mean is player would like to use public service to build roads, stations, etc. in order not to let his own company has great construction cost). Therefore, I have further idea that public service would "rent" the station or stop to human player in order to gain income from that. Also, if there is a "rent duration", it would be a new attempt:) However, the player would rather build stop by himself ><

To implement this I would recommend new metrics to stops such as "incoming" and "outgoing" profit. Toll for stop usage is then based on profit (revenue for trip - amount spent getting there) The toll rate would then be split between the two of those metrics based on weight for all public stops (so that people always pay to use them, not only in one direction to prevent exploit). Negative profit (loss) for a journey is not taxed. Profit has to be taxed for toll because otherwise, if revenue was used, unprofitable lines which barely broke even might make a loss due to a lot of infrastructure for a few very profitable lines.

My idea above is just base on DrSupergood's concept. If so, the company can have more responsibility to the station they use. They will really care is there a need to build a stop rather than keep spawning building stop to gain money. Therefore, in my opinion, this is quite a good further direction to think about that.

May The Force Be With You Always!