Author Topic: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"  (Read 1254 times)

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Offline NNW

A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« on: April 30, 2017, 02:50:23 PM »
Another idea after that for alpha for trees......

A "special" stop or extension building, that work as entrepod can be helpful. So its possible to "store" goods and transport them later to its destination. Its enough if this stop can hold 4 or 5 good types and a limited value of each of them at the same time.

Offline Vladki

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2017, 05:35:46 PM »
And how exactly would this be different from the already existing station extensions?

Offline NNW

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2017, 04:36:38 AM »
The Entrepod accept the goods even when the destination factory actually does it not. The Entrepod has the same good on the inputside as on the output.

Offline Leartin

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2017, 07:55:16 AM »
Technically, can't you create a factory where input and output are the same and use that? Just place that as public player, cut the direct contract between producer and consumer, and instead make a contract between producer and entrepot and 'entrepot and consumer. Should work.

Now, you probably want it as something that can be placed without the editor - but that's where the problems start. You need to have a contract, and the game would not know with which factory. So you either need to allow for the common player to change contracts in some way - which seems silly - or you have the entrepot work as a valid consumer for everything, and a valid producer for everything. But if you have two lines [Producer]-[Entrepot]-[Consumer] which have the same consumer, it's actually a line [Producer1]-[Entrepot1]-[Consumer]-[Entrepot2]-[Producer2]. The game would probably try to transport from Producer1 to Entrepot2, and from Producer2 to Entrepot1, because they are valid targets.

You could also have a different issue. If you have two lines [Producer]-[Consumer], but they don't interconnect (producer 1 has no contract with consumer 2, producer 2 has no contract with consumer 1) - what happens if both go over the same Entrepot? Wouldn't that allow goods from producer 1 to arrive at consumer 2 even though they have no contract?


Perhaps you could create it as a sort of outpost for one factory - so after building, you click on a factory to connect it, and it becomes a valid destination for goods of that factory. But if so, how would a consumer decide where to order from - the producer or it's outpost? Would that require a route check to see which is closer?



It might be a good idea if you could describe the exact szenario in which you would wish for an entrepot, since it's not as simple as your one sentence suggests. For example, whether the goods in the entrepot should already have a destination, or the entrepot should be the destination, how connecting several lines with it works, and so on.

Offline NNW

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2017, 08:27:10 AM »
Quote
Technically, can't you create a factory where input and output are the same and use that?

Makeobj say that this is not allowed.

Quote
It might be a good idea if you could describe the exact szenario in which you would wish for an entrepot,since it's not as simple as your one sentence suggests.

aeh yeah. i have not considered this...

Offline hreintke

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2017, 10:42:00 AM »
I also have been thinking on using entrepod too.

Current I am using "entrepod stations", not directly nearby a factory.
The transport lines of the goods are not directly from factory -> consumer but factory -> entrepod station -> consumer.
The goods in the station are then already designated for the final consumer.

Did not try yet (and understand now that I need a patched makeobj) to do the following.

Create a factory with the same goods as input and output.
Add this factory as consumer to the factories which are allowed to fill the entrepod.
Add this factory as producer to the factories which are allowed to receive from the entrepod.

Then the goods to the entrepod do not yet have a "final destination" and can go to any of the "entrepod consumers"
The factories producing for the entrepod will do until fully occupied with goods.

The normal transport/connect mechanism of simutrans can then be used without change.

As said, not yet tried, so maybe something missing or overlooked.

Offline Leartin

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2017, 11:12:46 AM »
As said, not yet tried, so maybe something missing or overlooked.

I investigated after NRR said it's not possible, since I only tried to pak it - which is possible - but the game won't start with a factory that produces and consumes the same thing. One could possibly try to do it with two of them - one with input X and output Y and one with input Y and output X - though then you run into the problem that both X and Y would be exchanged in an endless loop. But might not matter if they have same productivity. Otherwise, you'd need three factories - X-Y, Y-Z, Z-X - to avoid X being put back in the first factory.

Offline NNW

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2017, 08:01:23 AM »
If the entrepod has no productivity because it works as a special stop and the player must make a "contract" manual with the "Contracttool" under special tools then there is no problem. If the line is not build properly then the game should only give a fail message and ignore it. Maybe its possible to hardcode a rule that the entrepod don't accept cross-connections. A Fab can deliver to the Entrepod and his consumer can only receive goods wich came from this....
It should also has a limited !hardcoded! value how much goods alltogether it can store.

Offline Vladki

I still have problems to see what are you trying to achieve? What scenario is that, where normal station extensions are not suitable for your goal?




Offline hreintke

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2017, 03:21:43 PM »
My usecase is when there are multiple consumers in one (maybe remote) area of the map.
I then can create a warehouse in that area which holds stock for all the consumers.

The difference with a station is that in that case the destination consumer is already decided in the production fabric.
The goods from the warehouse still can go to any of the connected consumers.

I made a patch to allow "same input and output goods" and made a warehouse.pak.
Not experienced in pak design need to figure out correct setting for input/output capacity and production.
I see the "production process" in a warehouse to be an "handling time of getting the goods in/out the warehouse".

Using my patched simutrans version, goods flow was as I expected.
Probably  need more patches as I think there will be locations where the knowledge of "input goods cannot be the same as output goods" is used implicit .

Offline Vladki

Why don't you just connect the consumer factories to the production factory using public player? I have the feeling that you are trying to invent complicated solution to  a problem that is already solved.




Offline An_dz

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Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2017, 06:00:44 PM »
I also fail to understand what's going on here.

Offline Ters

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Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2017, 06:21:58 PM »
It seems to me that hreintke, and maybe NNW, want to embed themselves into the industrial chain as something of a wholesaler in addition to shipper. In a way buying goods, shipping it to a part of the map where demand is anticipated, and then sell and ship it to a consumer when the demand materializes. This would require some fundamental changes in the industrial simulation if this is to happen with regular stations or extensions, and I don't think it is a realistic way of doing it. Some form of industry that has the same input and output would perhaps be a lesser change, and isn't unrealistic, but if the restriction is simply lifted, the industry spawning algorithm will probably be confused and might end up building infinite chains of such industries. The player would have to manually hook them into a chain.

Offline Vladki

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2017, 07:50:54 PM »
Well, in that case I would recommend using the "packing plant" model. For the goods that you want to go through the entrepot, make a new goods.dat definition - original could would be wholesale (bulk) packaged, and the new one would be nice small retail boxes. The entrepot will be effectively repacking the goods from bulk packages to retail packages. Thus you will avoid loops and other weirdness of factories with the same input and output. Of course you'll have to modify goods.dat and the dat files of consumer factories. (or the other way round)

Example:
Original chain pak128:
(Grain + Glass) -> Brewery -> (beer bottles) -> Supermarket
New chain:
(Grain) -> Brewery -> (beer in cooled tanks, same class as milk) -> Bottling facility (entrepot, with glass as additional input) -> bottled beer for supermarkets.

Or you can add one more factory to the chain, as I did with bakery and dairy from pak128 - make them output bread and cheese and deliver that to shop: https://uran.webstep.net/~vladki/simutrans/pak128/samoska/

Offline hreintke

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2017, 07:56:36 PM »
Ters is correct in his understanding, that is the usecase I have in mind.

And I also expect that industry spawning is the area to check first. If you can point to the location in the source I can look at that.
If really considered as an additional feature, also naming (producers/consumers) probably needs attention.

For my testing I am looking how to "disconnect" two factories. Maybe I overlooked but don't see it in the map editing tools.

Offline Vladki

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2017, 09:46:12 PM »
For my testing I am looking how to "disconnect" two factories. Maybe I overlooked but don't see it in the map editing tools.
I don't know about such tool. However once I succeeded to disconnect factories by editing a savegane in xml format.

Offline Ves

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2017, 11:08:51 PM »
Also, you can "disconnect" it by deleting and rebuilding it and manually reappend all the contracts that still should remain. A bit of a hazle though if there are many contracts!

Offline Dwachs

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Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2017, 09:17:37 AM »
For my testing I am looking how to "disconnect" two factories. Maybe I overlooked but don't see it in the map editing tools.
Use the factory linking tool but with ctrl+click.
Parsley, sage, rosemary, and maggikraut.

Offline hreintke

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2017, 01:03:37 PM »
@All thanks for the input.
@Vladki Using the packing plant model requires a lot effort to redesign the goods chain. I think for my warehouses the input=output suits better.
However, I am looking into some way of containerized transport. For that I am also investigating factory chains like

good1 -> container containing good1                                       -> unpack container -> good1
                                                        -> transport containers
good2 -> container containing good2                                       -> unpack container -> good2

But are only initial thoughts yet.

@All I think I can prevent "auto building" warehouses by setting the distribution weight to zero.
That means I can test/use further with manual construction warehouses where I want them without further issues.
If the warehouse feature is something which could be added to simutrans I can/will investigate further coding.

@NNW Sorry for hijacking your thread.

Offline NNW

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2017, 01:12:19 PM »
Quote
It seems to me that hreintke, and maybe NNW, want to embed themselves into the industrial chain as something of a wholesaler in addition to shipper.

No, what i want is something that called "Gueter Verteilerzentrum" - "Distribution Center" here.

Quote
I still have problems to see what are you trying to achieve? What scenario is that, where normal station extensions are not suitable for your goal?

Hauler don' transport always Products from the Fab to the Consumer. Sometimes if the way is to long to deliver just in time, then you store a contingent from different products in a Depot near the end consumers and then deliver when needed. You cant do that in ST, because the Factory stops production when the consumer says "I'm full".

Offline Vladki

The stop production problem is solved by JIT=2




Offline Ters

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Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2017, 03:40:06 PM »
Hauler don' transport always Products from the Fab to the Consumer. Sometimes if the way is to long to deliver just in time, then you store a contingent from different products in a Depot near the end consumers and then deliver when needed. You cant do that in ST, because the Factory stops production when the consumer says "I'm full".

Adding a station extension doesn't change anything in this regard. The consumer will still only order when it wants stuff. I don't think real life businesses pad incoming or outgoing orders and expect the shipper to just hang on to the surplus. Consumers can be more clever with timing the ordering so that things arrive when needed, which is what JIT2 is trying to simulate.

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2017, 03:59:39 PM »
I am not too sure "entrepod" is an English word... It sounds much like you are requesting the long proposed "warehouse" idea.

At some stage I was planning to overhaul JIT2 to be more reliable at getting factories working continuously. However progress towards that has not been happening quickly recently.

Offline Ters

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Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2017, 05:30:16 PM »
It is entrep├┤t, not entrepod. I'm not sure why people suddenly started spelling it differently, because it is correct (apart from the circumflex) in the title. However, I don't think these services are/were supplied by shippers, but rather by traders.

Offline Leartin

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2017, 06:51:46 PM »
Entrepot is correct as well. I assume most people, just like DrSuperGood, did not know it was even a word, so they did not bother looking up the spelling or anything and just took the opening posts spelling, so everyone knew what the talk was about.

Offline DrSuperGood

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2017, 02:35:06 AM »
When I googled the word earlier it was coming up with foreign language sites... Now it is showing an English word meaning. I guess the instance I copied into google must have been misspelt, or google has changed its results.

The word is not one that is spoken a lot. I would not be surprised if most young people do not know about it. I think using the wikipeida alternative "transshipment port" is probably more user friendly even if it is longer to write.

Offline An_dz

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Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2017, 03:13:12 AM »
When I googled the word earlier it was coming up with foreign language sites... Now it is showing an English word meaning. I guess the instance I copied into google must have been misspelt, or google has changed its results.
I would not be surprise, Google changes the result based on "your interests". Especially if also using Chrome and sync it with your account.

Offline Ters

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Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2017, 06:12:43 AM »
I think using the wikipeida alternative "transshipment port" is probably more user friendly even if it is longer to write.

Except that "transshipment port" is even more misleading about the intention. The request was not about transshipment, which is possible at all stops in Simutrans, nor was it necessarily about ports. The key idea is:
So its possible to "store" goods and transport them later to its destination.
which is a very vague idea. In fact, it covers how things have been working for years.

No, what i want is something that called "Gueter Verteilerzentrum" - "Distribution Center" here.

Hauler don' transport always Products from the Fab to the Consumer. Sometimes if the way is to long to deliver just in time, then you store a contingent from different products in a Depot near the end consumers and then deliver when needed. You cant do that in ST, because the Factory stops production when the consumer says "I'm full".

"Gueter Verteilerzentrum" doesn't give much hits to explain the concept, but judging from the hits I get, I get the impression that such things are a mix of distinct companies and forward warehouses belonging to the supplier. Both are distinct from the shipper, unless the supplier ships their own goods (no hits from DB or DSL for example). Whether the former is some form of wholesaler or just a warehouse providing the physical space for the latter, is not clear to me.

The actual problem seems to be the thing JIT2 was made to solve, that industries were notoriously bad at predicting their needs.

Offline Leartin

Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2017, 07:07:08 AM »
"Gueter Verteilerzentrum" doesn't give much hits to explain the concept, but judging from the hits I get, I get the impression that such things are a mix of distinct companies and forward warehouses belonging to the supplier. Both are distinct from the shipper, unless the supplier ships their own goods (no hits from DB or DSL for example). Whether the former is some form of wholesaler or just a warehouse providing the physical space for the latter, is not clear to me.

"G├╝terverteilzentrum" just means that it's a collection point. So from any location, goods first go to their nearest Verteilzentrum, then to the Verteilzentrum closest to their destination, and then to the destination. So pretty much what was suggested here: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=15391.msg151713#msg151713 - although that has nothing to do with this suggestion here.

I think the entrepots suggested would be a service provided by the transportation company. The transportation company builds warehouses and rents them to suppliers for storage. If a consumer orders from that supplier, they just call the transportation company and tells them to take the ware from the warehouse and deliver it, which would be faster than having the transportation company first come to pick it up. So if you ask wether the entrepot belongs to the transportation company or the supplier, the answer is both.
...well, more realistically, it would be for regular orders and orders long in advance. But those concepts don't really exist in Simutrans.

Offline Ters

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Re: A special "stop or extension" that work as "entrepot"
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2017, 03:52:48 PM »
...well, more realistically, it would be for regular orders and orders long in advance. But those concepts don't really exist in Simutrans.

I thought that was what JIT2 was all about.