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[remarks v3.8]

Started by dantedarkstar, May 16, 2009, 10:04:56 AM

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dantedarkstar

I have played a little in the v3.8 version and the following remarks came up:

> When using using "New Map" the currently set water level is not properly applied to the map. Only after changing water level, the right setting is applied.
> Don't know why "no trees" flag is always reset to unchecked with each New Map (but it was the same with standard simutrans)
> Vehicles CAN move over ways they are too heavy for, they just can't find routes over them (found out by loading my save from normal simutrans and as it turns out loaded buses I use are too heavy for city road, but until they get to the stop and try finding route further on they drive without problem). The weight limit is set to "hard" (strictly enforce, can't enter if overweight, supposedly as it seems ;) )
Links+Tutorial: Make heightmap of any part of world !
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=2210.0

jamespetts

Dante,

thank you very much for your comments! As to nos. 1 and 2, I have not touched the code relating to those aspects, so that behaviour should be the same in Simutrans-Standard. Perhaps you could post in the other forum sections ("Extension requests", maybe?) if you would like that behaviour changed?

As to vehicles being able to move over ways for which they are too heavy until they try to find a route, they would only be able to get onto those ways in the first place if they had been there having been saved in a game that did not enforce weight limits: that problem will not arise in games created in Simutrans-Experimental. It is rather difficult to know what to do about such situations, since it is difficult if the vehicles get completely stuck (which they eventually do in any event, when they get to a halt). For that reason, it is best to leave "hard" enforcement for games created new in Simutrans-Experimental, or where you can be sure of not having overweight vehicles.

Thank you again or your comments, and for trying Simutrans-Experimental. I should be very interested to know of any further thoughts and how you get on with it!
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dantedarkstar

@1 If I remembe correctly, standard simutrans resets the water level when using "new map". Experimental does not reset the setting in the climate menu, but apparently resets some "internal" setting.

@2 What about "upgrading" way the vehicle has already scheduled the route through ? If I remember correctly if you remove electrification, the electric train will stop at the last electrified area and say "can't find route", despite already having route set through this spot before.
Now, what if you "upgrade" the way the vehicle goes through ? For example from cobblestone (pak128 limit 70t) to asphalt (pak128 limit 50t) ? The problem of crossing the sections the vehicle is too heavy for is not limited to reloading old saves.
Seems like electrification and weight limit are checked in totally different ways and places. Might be good to unify it so that they behave in same way.

This also brings forth another issue about "upgrading". In standard, the only parameter was max speed so all waytypes could be strictly ordered from "worse" to "better" (if we disregard maintenance and only consider vehicle movement). But now, ways have 2 parameters ! You can now block off your own routes unintentionally. And to fix it you would have to completely destroy the way to lay "worse" one that actually can support the vehicles. So "upgrade" and "downgrade" is not obvious anymore and in future you should consider allowing "downgrading" ways (which would be handy even without weitght limit in place, to make eventual maintenance savings).
As for upgrading... well. Probably the best way would be to put options "upgrade by speed" and "upgrade by weight" to check/uncheck. Only if the new way was better in selected aspects, the old one would be replaced (and if none was checked, then you could "downgrade" then).

Anyway, just a few thoughts about the mess created by introducing the weight limits. (it's not critique, just pointing that it creates new problems not known before to simutrans).
Links+Tutorial: Make heightmap of any part of world !
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=2210.0

jamespetts

Dante,

thank you for your reply :-) As I wrote before, I have not changed anything remotely related to water levels. Are you sure that the behaviour is at variance with the latest nightly?

As to "upgrading" roads, from what I understand, it is possible to force a downgrade by holding down CTRL when laying roads and other ways, which should enable roads/rails with higher weight limits but lower speed limits to be laid over those with higher speed limits but lower weight limits. For pakset authors, however, I should recommend against having roads/rails with higher speed but lower weight limits than others for exactly that reason: faster ways should always have the same or greater weight limits as slower ways, and ways with greater weight limits should always have the same or better speed limits than other ways (which is, in any event, broadly realistic).
Download Simutrans-Extended.

Want to help with development? See here for things to do for coding, and here for information on how to make graphics/objects.

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dantedarkstar

I didn't know you could downgrade with CTRL. Have to try :)



As for the waterlevel, the behaviors ARE different. Checked just now. It's actually when loading heightmap that this happens. Let me explain:
Simutrans-Standard:
I use New Map, then set the water level to -4 (from the default 4). Now I use Load Heightmap. The water level setting instantly changes to 4 (even before the actual map is loaded). After loading the heightmap the default water level (4) is applied. Since the setting and actual level are same, everything is "fine" (even if it's annoying that he always resets this level).

Simutrans-Experimental:
I use New Map, then set the water level to -10 (from default 0). Now I use Load Heightmap. The water level setting remains at -10. After loadint the heightmap the default water level (0) is applied. Now, the setting says -10, while the map has actually 0. If I increase water level to -9, then it is immediately applied to the map correctly and the actual water level drops from 0 to -9.

So I think that actually calling the "water level setting update" function or whatever after loading heightmap might fix it and at the same time get rid of annoying "resetting" each heightmap load :)
Links+Tutorial: Make heightmap of any part of world !
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=2210.0

jamespetts

Which version of Simutrans-Standard are you using? Simutrans-Experimental uses the code from the latest nightlies, so if you're using 102.0, then it won't be an accurate comparison.
Download Simutrans-Extended.

Want to help with development? See here for things to do for coding, and here for information on how to make graphics/objects.

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dantedarkstar

Ok. You are right. I don't have a nightly installed anyway, so can't check now. It's not really important anyway, just a slight inconsistency. Something to be worried for final versions, not testing purposes.
Links+Tutorial: Make heightmap of any part of world !
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=2210.0