Author Topic: Citytrams  (Read 11230 times)

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Offline MHD

Citytrams
« on: November 25, 2011, 01:15:09 PM »
Hi all,
following a discussion, which is more than 3 years old, I managed to make a citytram electrification of roads. This means a two-way tram, using roads to run. Here is a screenshot:

 
You can test the beta-version, which you can get here http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=8596.msg80319#msg80319

Offline ave616

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Re: Citytrams
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2011, 04:45:55 PM »
Congratulations.

This is very good project imo. I was looking for thing like that for my map editing, because I think that "traditional" tram tracks in Simutrans take too much space, and tram "independence" from city traffic is a little bit strange. Anyway, there are few things that I can propose to you in development of your project.

What with "off-road" trains? I mean places like alleys in large cities, for example Al. Niepodległości (Alley of Independence) in Szczecin PL:
.
Good solution would be special "road" with textures different from city roads (now I'm using "road 55" from newest pak128). But (there's always "but") what with other vehicles trying to drive trough this "tram road"? There should be some kind of road sign preventing other vehicles than trams (even "my") from entering there.

I hope that my english isn't so bad and you can understand what I mean ;-)
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Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall

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Re: Citytrams
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2011, 05:01:43 PM »
Your English is more than sufficient; quite good. And you don't have to worry here unless it's almost as bad as an automated translator - and even then, I post sometimes in non-English boards using translators (though usually with English to as it will help those that are multilingual where the translator is bad) :)

On this forum, we don't discourage suggestions/requests unless they become excessive; and it's really of course up to MHD as to what he does; but if he doesn't wish to create a custom road (which is what would be needed - a road that looks electrified, or at least like off-road tracks); if he is willing to release the graphics to help get you started, and you are desperate enough -- you will find help in learning how to make your own road that you could contribute. So even if he doesn't like your suggestion, there's hope if you're willing to learn/work. :)

Also, welcome to the forum! :)

Offline ave616

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Re: Citytrams
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2011, 05:19:12 PM »
I'm faintly thinking about doing something mine and probably in few next days I'll post something (i hope) usefull. I have some interesting ideas about "custom roads" for trams based on real tram solutions in my home city, Szczecin. Pray for my lack of artistic talents ;-) And thank for nice welcome.
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Offline MHD

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2011, 06:00:51 PM »
And the good thing is also:
The offroad tracks are part of the set, I am develloping at the moment. As you see, the track is labelled 'concrete'.
First, I have to do some 'cosmetics' on the vehicles and still (sic!) on the catenary (the intercatenary distance is not exactly matching).
After this, I will continue on the following variations:
 
1. Citytram Cobblestone (tram is directly put in the road with cobblestone inlay), Intro year 1880, Max-Speed 40 km/h
2. Citytram Asphalt (tram is directly put in the road with asphalt inlay), Intro year 1938, Max-Speed 50 km/h
3. Concrete Citytram (tram rides on concrete panels), Intro year 1976, Max-Speed 60 km/h (see this Beta-Version)
4. Grass-panel Citytram (tram rides on off-road green stripe), Intro year 1988, Max-Speed 75 km/h
5. Welded gravelbed citytram (tram rides off-road, welded tracks with gravel topping), Intro-year 2002, Max-Speed 90 km/h

A part of this is already in progress, but I first want to finish the first one with a good quality

Now, the textures of the concrete panels are already different from the road textures (they are more light, as in reality). For your other ideas, ave616, it could be a bit difficult.
As this system is for the moment only a 'graphical issue', the tracks have to be shared between tram and road vehicles. The only solution could be the definition of a new waytype. As this system is half-way shifted from the boardwalks, such a waytype would only make sense, if the road vehicles would have also an off-set, more close to the boardwalk.
(This would actually mean to shift all present road vehicles, I guess).
 
MHD
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 06:09:53 PM by MHD »

Offline mEGa

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Re: Citytrams
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2011, 07:14:39 PM »
What with "off-road" trains? I mean places like alleys in large cities, for example Al. Niepodległości (Alley of Independence) in Szczecin PL:
.

hi,
Here few french addons to make off-road tracks :
http://www.simutrans-france.fr.nf/doku.php?id=en:trambygwalch

And here pak of  tram_stations :
http://www.simutrans-france.fr.nf/doku.php?id=en:snfosstations#stations_of_tramtrack

All this paks are made for pak128... But traditional : one way per tile.
http://www.simutrans-france.fr.nf/doku.php?id=en:snfosstations#stations_of_tramtrack

@ MHD : good idea  and interesting work !
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 07:20:20 PM by mEGa »
Current projects in progress : improvements of few designed french paks

Offline MHD

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2011, 02:21:41 PM »
@mEGa
Interestedly I watch the French forum, because the tram stops is a work, which will be necessary for the CityTram either.
btw. I updated the concrete tracks in Czech forum with tailored catenaries, so that this first track is finished now.

Offline MHD

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2011, 03:56:40 PM »
@ave616
As a teaser: How you like that one?
 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:11:57 PM by MHD »

Offline The Hood

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2011, 04:50:00 PM »
This is a nice project, although I'm interested about how you separate "trams" from "buses" in this system as they are all officially buses and trams are simply buses with electrification.  I would love to see trams recoded to allow behaviour like cars and buses (and interacting with traffic when on-street) but with separate speed limits to buses to allow for tram-only sections and non-electric trams.  I feel an extension requestr coming on...

Offline ave616

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Re: Citytrams
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2011, 05:08:27 PM »
@mEGa
Those tram tracks are very good, but I've stopped using them after Fabio released his pak, which is now part of main pak128. (Off-topic: I'm new on forum, but I've been playing Simutrans for long time, so I've seen most of available addons ;-) ) And, as you wrote: it's in "traditional" system of one way per tile.

@MHD
This grass panel (?) looks good. I like your work.

I've been thinking about system solutions for Citytram (if we want it to be something more than "graphical issue"). As you told, probably new kind of waytype is needed for this if we want it to work correctly and realistic. What with "traditional" system trams? Adding new waytype for purposes of Citytram will be a little bit revolutionary for actual gameplay.

Should 1wpt ("one way per tile") trams coexist with new 2wpt trams? Should 2wpt trams been separated from trolleybuses?

If your answers are "no" for first question and "yes" for second one: 1wpt trams can be replaced by 2wpt trams. And in result 2wpt could work like tram tracks now, with ability to be put on road and off-road.

But is there point for making this work like that? Will other simutransers accept this kind of change? I mean that this will cause problems with redesigning lot of vehicles (most of trams existing so far). I don't even know is this kind of solve possible. (Of course I know that result doesn't need to be placed in main pak.)

I think that whole this future work is worth to do, because having 2wpt trams separated correctly form trolleybuses and other road vehicles (like in reality) would very great thing. But I repeat my previous question: is there a point for this?

This are just my private thoughts and I'm open for any other idea for solving this problem.

And honestly, at now I'm totally green in technical issues related with such deep moding of Simutrans (but I'm slowly earning necessary knowledge).

Regards.
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Offline MHD

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2011, 06:59:27 PM »
@The Hood

You're right, this will happen, as long the two-way-tram is still an electrified road vehicle. Example overtaking:
When a (faster) bus is overtaking the tram, it will be shifted towards the pavement. Things like this aren't to manage elseway.

But I also noticed, that in today's road vehicles the placement on zhe road is quite different On NS/EW roads the bus drives on my tram tracks, while in NW/SE direction the bus is next to the pavement. Anyway I am sure, that both kind of vehicles could coexist.

Extension request...why not. At least there is some potential with already some substancial graphics work done ;-)

Offline ave616

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Re: Citytrams
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2011, 05:36:51 PM »
@MHD

Have you seen this (Road Tram Set)?
http://japanese.simutrans.com/index.php?Addon128%2FRoadTools%201

It's not that what I'm really looking for, but it looks interesting (from technical side). And I'm afraid that this pak doesn't work correctly with latest Simutrans (or latest pak128 - I don't know).
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 06:01:58 PM by ave616 »
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Offline MHD

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2011, 08:06:39 PM »
Hi ave:
I didn't get the interesting thing about this work, is it different from mine? You don't like my tracks?  ;)

Better, you look for my update here: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=8596.msg80529#msg80529

Offline ave616

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Re: Citytrams
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2011, 09:04:31 PM »
If you ask about graphics - your are much better.

But this japan pak is something else, it's independent from normal road (because it's one floor higher). Look on image. Look into this paks *.dat file.
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Offline MHD

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2011, 10:21:11 PM »
Ah...I see... interesting way...
 

Offline ave616

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Re: Citytrams
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2011, 11:21:52 PM »
Ah...I see... interesting way...

And what do you think about this kind of solve?
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Offline MHD

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2011, 05:23:44 AM »
I think, it is interesting.
Anyway, it is just an optical effect and I wonder, how graphic will show in game, when the road vehicles are driving below that layer, how do stations look like.
But for the moment it is not my business. You would have to redraw everything...

Offline ave616

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Re: Citytrams
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2011, 08:28:00 AM »
I wonder, how graphic will show in game, when the road vehicles are driving below that layer, how do stations look like.

Tested - they look terribly ;-) And whole pak works ok only in driving left games.
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Offline MHD

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 09:01:36 PM »
So here is a next update:

First, a cobblestone track, and I added all the sources to the respective posts... Get it here:Link to Czech forum

Offline MHD

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2011, 04:41:55 PM »
My christmas gift for the Simutrans community (original in Czech board)
The final version of the Citytrams:



Track TypeIntro datePriceMaintenanceImageMax. speed
Cobblestone1.9.1875140€8€40km/h
Asphalt1.3.1935200€10€45km/h
Concrete1.5.1977280€7€60km/h
Gravel bed1.11.1990450€4€75km/h
Grass1.12.1995550€10€90km/h



Credits to Fabio a Timothy for the original patterns, which were important in the beginning and  TommPa9, Lubak91 and others from the czech forum for the support.
Due to the new pantograph system, new vehicles will follow the next days (only in czech forum, keep up to date)

Merry X-mas,  MHD

Here the download link:

http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/way.citytram.all.pak.7z
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 02:01:14 PM by MHD »

Offline Isaac_Clarke

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2011, 08:54:24 PM »
There is a "real tram" in the first picture. How did you use it as a citytram?

Offline MHD

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2011, 10:30:23 AM »
Hi Isaac_Clarke,
I repainted it for the use as Citytram. You can download it here:
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=553.msg79522#msg79522

Offline Isaac_Clarke

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2011, 06:04:55 PM »
Ok thank you! Do you plan to convert some existing trams into citytrams?

Offline MHD

Re: Citytrams
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2011, 08:40:37 PM »
Maybe later. I will first go over the first existing trams and stations and then we will see.
Anway, it is not a great job to convert the existing trams, when you use the existing ones as a template.
If you are interested, there is also a Citytram depot already available in Czech forum posted on christmas...
For the moment, we are setting the priority for czech objects, but as common in Simutrans, you are all invited to support this system by your own contributions  :)

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Re: Citytrams
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2014, 03:45:57 PM »
well, i know, long ago topic, but I would be really interested (and as I can't read czech, I ask here ;) HOW for example to convert a tram where I have the PNG and dat into such road tram,

because your way is much better than the roadtram addon of the japanese, as their biggest trams are only 84 persons holding and really slow and quite ugly. It would be much more pleasant to have modern nice looking trams on the road (and the problem with getting stucked in traffic jams: well... I have now a real traffic jam in Klockingen, where 6 lines of road trams want to use one cross and of course: all got there at the same time...