The International Simutrans Forum

PakSets and Customization => Pak128.Britain => Topic started by: Aquin on January 24, 2015, 08:20:30 PM

Title: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 24, 2015, 08:20:30 PM
Road based goods transport suffers (imho) from really high cost for the station infrastructure, especially after the staging inn retires in 1844. At that moment one is forced to use the cargo bay with a capacity of 128, which is an insane capacity considering, that trucks won't hit a capacity of 30 until the 1960ies.

I would suggest that there should be 3 cargo bays of different size available at all ages, the sizes grow over time.

like:
pre 1844: small 20 goods, medium 40 goods, no large, but there is the staging post with 10 of all and the staging inn with 40 of all.
until 1920: small 20 goods, medium 40 goods, large 60 goods
until 1960: small 30 goods, medium 60, large 90 goods
post 1960: small 60 goods, medium 120, large 180 goods

Basically the small bay retires when it becomes to small to hold the load for a single up to date truck. The larger variants should hold at least 2 or 3 truck loads.

I started playing around with blender using the blends from JamesHood to make some cargo bays by adding some cranes to the standard cargo bay to create some that give the impression of a more important/larger station.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on January 24, 2015, 08:34:07 PM
I do like those! I do not know whether stops in Standard are capable of having arbitrary sized capacities, however, or whether they are still bound to multiples of 32.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 24, 2015, 08:40:26 PM
If standard is limited to multiples of 32, that would still allow for 32, 64, 96, 128 and 160-sized versions.
But I think these stations should go to both standard and experimental.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on January 24, 2015, 08:57:52 PM
Yes, that seems sensible. They do look good.

Edit: I wonder whether you might want to make the lowest capacity cargo road stops of the straight through type, perhaps marked in the modern era with just road markings?
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 24, 2015, 09:03:06 PM
Quote from: jamespetts on January 24, 2015, 08:57:52 PM
I wonder whether you might want to make the lowest capacity cargo road stops of the straight through type, perhaps marked in the modern era with just road markings?

That will make inner-city placement easier, especially in standard. With the loading times of experimental it might lead to more congestion.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on January 24, 2015, 09:04:57 PM
Quote from: Aquin on January 24, 2015, 09:03:06 PM
That will make inner-city placement easier, especially in standard. With the loading times of experimental it might lead to more congestion.

Yes, that is true; although there is a feature request currently under consideration for Standard to allow overtaking of loading vehicles, which would be ported to Experimental if it were ever to be implemented.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 24, 2015, 11:49:13 PM
That would indeed make small stops on the street more attractive.

In the meantime I created an all concrete version of the small stop.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on January 24, 2015, 11:54:19 PM
Splendid!
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 25, 2015, 09:38:36 AM
And some more creativity:

Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on January 25, 2015, 10:24:04 AM
Interesting, although I am not sure about the last one, as the roof looks incomplete, as it has no supports on the left hand side or front. This is taken from the station overall roof, but points in another direction, I think. Also, you might want to think about finding ways of incorporating the player colour into these loading bays.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 25, 2015, 11:11:54 AM
You spotted correctly where I took the roof from :-) Why create new stuff if there is nice stuff around? But now I have given the open front some extra support, and raised the thick front pillars all the way to the top.

And in the meantime I also copy-pasted a container termnial for the modern times. The current modern cargo terminal can survive as the small version for modern times.

Basically all the green parts in the stations can be recolored to player colors.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on January 25, 2015, 12:05:59 PM
Ahh, the top one is better now; splendid - and re-colouring to match player colours is an excellent idea. The container cargo terminal looks good, too.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 25, 2015, 02:23:21 PM
To finish the creative phase here is the large modern terminal. And also a minor change to the medium one.

Now I think I have to figure out how to
- get the images into the game
- get the foreground parts out, for those where I have roofs/cranes that should go in front of the trucks
- incorporate player color
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on January 25, 2015, 03:09:36 PM
Excellent!
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 25, 2015, 03:24:50 PM
A question regarding the .dat file and the station capacity.

"level=1" results in 32 capacity and "level=4" in 128 capacity, in standard and experimental, unless I specify
"station_capacity=100" to set a different value, which will be ignored by standard but used by experimental?
and dims should be "Dims=1,1,4" for a dead end stop and "Dims=1,1,2" for a drive through?

And what are the rendering settings for the cursor and the icon?
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on January 25, 2015, 03:34:23 PM
I do not know about the cursor rendering settings; the icons, however, are usually taken from parts of the normal rendered images and superimposed on a blank icon graphic in the GIMP, and I suspect that the cursors are too. I cannot remember off the top of my head how the dims= setting works: it is best to compare with other .dat files. Unless Standard has changed recently to recognise station_capacity, your description is correct.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: kierongreen on January 25, 2015, 04:25:39 PM
capacity, maintenance and price were all incorporated into Standard getting on for two years ago I think including cross compatibility with Experimental (one uses capacity, the other uses station_capacity but both should recognise both texts)...
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 26, 2015, 06:38:26 PM
No, a stop with the following in its .dat file results in a 160 capacity stop in standard (r7373)

level=5
station_capacity=85
capacity=100
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: kierongreen on January 26, 2015, 11:20:58 PM
Are you compiling with a recent makeobj?
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: kierongreen on January 26, 2015, 11:25:58 PM
(where recent means compiled from a svn version after 6656):

r6656 | kierongreen | 2013-08-18 23:28:38 +0100 (Sun, 18 Aug 2013) | 1 line

ADD: capacity, cost and maintenance can be set for each station building
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 27, 2015, 07:26:01 AM
That seemed to have been the case. Now with Makeobj v55-3 it correctly adjusts the station capacity.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Bear789 on January 27, 2015, 08:12:49 AM
Speaking about cargo bays, is there a reason why there are no through cargo bays in Pak Britain? Given how Simutrans handles road traffic, it's kind of a waste because a bay can only handle one truck at a time. With through bays, you could approach it from both ways with a couple of waypoints and use both lanes.
If it's ment to be a restriction, it doesn't work anyway: given the need of a one tile dead end that spurs off the main road for the bay, I'd rather use a bus stop on the road and add a cargo extension building right next to it as it takes the same amount of space, it allows through operations and it handles more stuff.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on January 27, 2015, 10:07:13 AM
Through stops would be a good idea, although one problem is that road vehicles carrying cargo, as opposed to buses, take a long time to load/unload (in Experimental, at least), blocking the road for other vehicles. Two changes would make road stops behave better than at present: firstly, it would be helpful to have road vehicles able to overtake vehicles stopped at a stop, and secondly, it would be good for two road vehicles to be able to use a terminus stop simultaneously.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 27, 2015, 04:50:21 PM
I guess I can make some graphics for through-stops, since I am doing a lot of stop graphics already ;-) I'll just hav to decide if they will have an even lower capacity than terminus stops, of if I give them slightly increased maintenance :D
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 27, 2015, 09:13:29 PM
Making progress :-)

Here is a screenshot showing two of the new truck stops in game, it is the 1750 medium and the 1960 large stop. Both including correct front images and player colors.

The rest of the stops will follow.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on January 27, 2015, 10:06:35 PM
Splendid!
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Bear789 on January 28, 2015, 09:20:13 AM
Quote from: jamespetts on January 27, 2015, 10:07:13 AM
it would be helpful to have road vehicles able to overtake vehicles stopped at a stop

Would it be easier if, rather than having traffic overtaking the stopped vehicle (which I think I understood in an old suggestion topic, is not as easy as it seems), the stopped vehicle is removed from the traffic flow? Is this nonsense?
I mean, in real life on busy road there are usually bays in the sidewalk or empty spaces in the parking lane where busses and sometimes delivery trucks can stop without interfearing with the traffic flow.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on January 28, 2015, 09:57:27 AM
That is quite similar in principle, and makes sense to some extent, although one would have to consider whether one is simulating a 'bus stop with a bay or without one, and the latter is, I think, somewhat more common, especially where space is limited.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 28, 2015, 07:53:02 PM
I am sure you are already burning to test these great new truckstops, and a third one (1750 small) just got finished!
And they are available on github https://github.com/Aquin13/Simutrans-truck-stops
The menu-icons are not perfect yet.

--- EDIT ---
Just added 1844 small stop, and included size adjusted maintenance and pricing information.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: The Hood on January 31, 2015, 11:22:05 AM
Thanks for doing all these - I like them a lot. Great to have more variety. I'm not convinced about the one with the green over-roof though - it just doesn't seem to look like a freight stop to me.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on January 31, 2015, 05:38:00 PM
Today's update:
1844 medium and large stop. The large stop needed a redesign as it suffered from clipping problems, and some element from the large stop was then copied to the medium stop. Also the container terminal got pushed in time to a more realistic 1969.

Edit:
Even more crativity
The 1920 small and medium stops are finished.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 01, 2015, 02:37:52 PM
And another 1920 station, this one got some oil tanks, even with secondary player color.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: The Hood on February 01, 2015, 03:02:05 PM
Nice work - although the textures in screenshot 23 seem a little off: the roof seems too sharp and the sand/coal is very bright.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 01, 2015, 04:21:05 PM
Thanks for your suggestion. I darkened the roof, and now I like it much better myself.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: The Hood on February 01, 2015, 04:34:27 PM
Excellent - that fits much better with the pak style.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 01, 2015, 06:23:55 PM
Darker roof and darker sands for the other stop.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: The Hood on February 01, 2015, 06:33:44 PM
Nice. The sand still looks too yellow though. Try reducing the saturation value (make it more grey)...
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on February 01, 2015, 06:39:44 PM
Very nice progress!
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 01, 2015, 07:45:50 PM
That color proves more difficult than I thought, I got somewhat close to the stuff at the pottery and the brickworks.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on February 01, 2015, 08:24:47 PM
Definitely better.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: The Hood on February 01, 2015, 08:28:27 PM
Looking great now :)
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Milko on February 02, 2015, 08:11:33 AM
Splendid!!!!!! Nice job.

Giuseppe
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 02, 2015, 07:08:04 PM
The last stop in my series. And an overview over the truck stops that will be in the addon.
Now I have to start working on the winter images.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Milko on February 03, 2015, 11:03:56 AM
Hello Aquin

Quote from: Aquin on February 02, 2015, 07:08:04 PM
[...] And an overview over the truck stops that will be in the addon.
[...].

These loading areas, will be an addon or can be inserted directly into the pak?

Giuseppe
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 03, 2015, 12:56:21 PM
I would love to see them in the official pak, but until then they should already be available as addon.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: The Hood on February 03, 2015, 07:06:41 PM
I would like to include them in the official pak - have you done snow images? If so then it's probably ready to roll, but otherwise I'll wait until you've had time to do these.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 03, 2015, 08:50:15 PM
I haven't found the time to look into making snow versions of the stops. But they will come.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 14, 2015, 12:40:43 PM
I finally found some time to get the first snow version done. I finally had the good idea to basically copy in the snowy patches on the gate side from some road, and then just do a little pixel finetuning.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: The Hood on February 14, 2015, 04:33:52 PM
Looks perfect!
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on February 14, 2015, 04:48:50 PM
Splendid!
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 14, 2015, 05:17:21 PM
And now that I know what and how to do, snowing in the second stop went a lot faster :-)

Edit:
So fast indeed, that number 3 is done already.

Edit 2:
Number 4, it got a pile of snow in one corner as well.

Edit 3:
And another one.

Edit 4:
Winter is coming to the 1920ies!

To test my stops I load them as an addon in standard. Is there a similar possibility in Ex? So that I could playtest them there?
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Isaac Eiland-Hall on February 15, 2015, 01:58:15 PM
I'm sorry to say I haven't taken the time to figure out the addon folder structure, BUT... you can put any pak file in a pak directory. Just make sure it has a unique name so you can later pull it back out if needed. :)
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 15, 2015, 03:27:16 PM
That's about as complicated as for standard where you can just drop any .pak file in an addon-folder. But don't try to drop a standard pak into experimental, it will refuse to start. But once I compiled with an experimental makeobj everthing works just fine :-).

Edit:
And the snow continues to fall.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 17, 2015, 06:44:27 PM
Almost done now
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on February 17, 2015, 07:44:13 PM
Splendid! However, would that last loading bay not have a somewhat snowier road?
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: wlindley on February 19, 2015, 02:16:47 PM
All these excellent new cargo bays are making me wonder if the little buildings in them ought to become one- and two-storey versions of "Goods Warehouses" to match? 

p.s., in looking at all James's blends I realize most of the buildings I created were done "the wrong way" (entirely in Gimp with bitmap layers) and I really need to figure how to re-do them. *sigh*
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 23, 2015, 08:33:56 PM
So I think now I have all the stops, and all have a snow version. All the source files, as well as a pak-file for both experimental and standard are on github: https://github.com/Aquin13/Simutrans-truck-stops (https://github.com/Aquin13/Simutrans-truck-stops) And of course if you think they might suit pak128 or pak128german, feel free to include them there as well.

So please have a look at them in-game and tell me where I missed the odd pixel, or where you think that some texture needs a revamp.

@wlindley: I'm not quite sure what you want, if you wanted these stops to look like the "goods warehouse", that's not going to happen for several reasons:
1. the goods warehouse is quite boring as a stop, the truck vanishes in there.
2. there is not much variation possible.
3. put little warehouses next to the "road" part of the stop doesn't work as there is not enough space.
4. I like my stops as they are.

@james: no I think they knew how to operate a snowplow in the 1970'ies, so they have every right to clean their yard ;-)

Edit:
the paks can be found on http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/truck-stops-pak128britain.zip (http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/truck-stops-pak128britain.zip) as well.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: jamespetts on February 23, 2015, 11:16:41 PM
What a splendid collection! Incidentally, what is the URL of your Github repository from which I can download the sources?
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 24, 2015, 07:12:38 AM
https://github.com/Aquin13/Simutrans-truck-stops (https://github.com/Aquin13/Simutrans-truck-stops)
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: wlindley on February 24, 2015, 10:04:14 AM
Quote from: Aquin on February 23, 2015, 08:33:56 PM
if you wanted these stops to look like the "goods warehouse"

The reverse: I was wondering whether we might have a few new goods warehouses to match these excellent stops.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: Aquin on February 24, 2015, 08:20:01 PM
In that direction it might happen. As it seems there is no warehouse for long goods or containers. And maybe a cold storage house. I'll see if I can find motivation and time to do some.
Title: Re: More Cargo Bays
Post by: The Hood on December 14, 2015, 03:29:29 PM
Added to standard finally. Thanks for your work here.