Author Topic: New Signalling Feedback Thread  (Read 792 times)

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Offline Spenk009

New Signalling Feedback Thread
« on: April 24, 2017, 04:20:23 PM »
I for one don't feel confident yet in my signalling with the new development in signalling. I doubt many do and we are trying our best to adapt to re-thinking our entire placement and management strategies in-game. The tutorial videos are extremely detailed and clear on each aspect discussed (thank you James, they are very good and universally appreciated). Using the videos gives a very good start into the concept and application of placement techniques. I find it best to learn by trying out configurations and adapting these further. The intention of this thread is for people to post setups for inspiration, advice and showcasing their creations.



Here's a section of track that splits off from the mainline. The double track from West to North continues further up and down, with one line splitting off, reducing into single track and one terminus at the end of the section. I used a section of double track to allow trains to wait in case the single/branch line is occupied. Coming in from the North a combined signal is slightly obstructed by a tree and slightly further up is a distant signal. Another combined signal is just about visible behind the signalbox and further signals are on the far side of the station.



For the single tracked branch line do I need token block signals or would one-train-staffs be sufficient?

Online Ves

Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2017, 05:00:43 PM »
What a genial idea for a thread! :)

If you ever only want one train at a time to traverse back and fourth on the single tracked line, a One Train Staff would do. If it is just a single tracked section of a line, or between the picture and a termini station (with two or more tracks), you would need token block signals at both ends of the single tracked line.
Think like this: A one train staff section needs the train to return to the same spot that it picked up the staff in order to return it, allowing the section of rail to get unreserved. A token block section can leave the token at any other signal, thus unreserving the section of rail.

A picture of a one train staff section:

Offline Vladki

Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2017, 05:33:02 PM »
I think that the general aim of the new signalling is to allow for the same configuration of signals as would be used in real world.




Offline AP

Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2017, 06:29:33 PM »
Quote
I think that the general aim of the new signalling is to allow for the same configuration of signals as would be used in real world.
With the previously noted exception that train staffs in the real world can be used for single track block sections which can be exited at either end, (and the staff later returned by a train in the opposite direction), which could cause potential gridlock if strictly simulated in-game (unless a very robust timetable were used). Hence only token block is to be offered in game. [EDIT - & Time interval +telegraph as noted below.]

I've yet to understand the implication of this in timeline terms, but I suspect it will mean single track working is not available as early in game as it was in reality, since token block is contingent on electricity, where staff working is not. This may or may not have economic implications.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 02:51:44 PM by AP »

Offline Vladki

Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2017, 06:39:52 PM »
You can use time interval with telegraph for single tracks too.




Offline Spenk009

Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2017, 02:22:50 PM »
So in essence, the token block is the same as a staff cabinet, with the exception that the engine doesn't need to stop to pick up the staff. Thank you very much for the help, the image helps most. I tend to worry about the fact that precious time and momentum is lost on the pick-up of the staff.


Online Ves

Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2017, 02:47:45 PM »
Yes, it needs to stop and pickup the "token" (which is essentially the same thing as a "staff": A physical object that gives permission to traverse the track).
There are some texts in the help section of the game already describing the differences, it is however not complete. Also, there are some descriptions on the working methods here:
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=14848.0

edit
While we are talking about the sometimes convoluted signalling, is there any information in particular that you think would be helpsome in the info window of the signal? If there was a text that would have made something more clear directly?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 07:58:17 PM by Ves »

Offline AP

Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2017, 09:03:48 PM »
I believe James is considering renaming One Train Staff to "One Engine in Steam" as that is the more widely used and unambiguous term.

You can use time interval with telegraph for single tracks too.
I don't think we yet have a video explaining how this works? Time interval operation on single track lines suggest multiple trains in the same single track section are possible, which would be interesting... I could see potential issues with very long block sections, for instance, but it depends how it has been coded.  It could allow a fast train to "catch up with" a preceding slow train on the same single track line, for example - which could lead to some very clever timetabling options becoming possible if the slow train parks in a siding "in the nick of time".  However if it means trains all have to drive by sight it's less useful.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 08:05:31 PM by AP »

Online Ves

Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2017, 11:06:51 PM »
I don't think we yet have a video explaining how this works? Time interval operation on single track lines suggest multiple trains in the same single track section are possible, which would be interesting... I could see potential issues with very long block sections, for instance, but it depends how it has been coded.  It could allow a fast train to "catch up with" a preceding slow train on the same single track line, for example - which could lead to some very clever timetabling options becoming possible if the slow train parks in a siding "in the nick of time".  However if it means trains all have to drive by sight it's less useful.

I believe that this is very much possible with how it is in fact coded right now :) Trains will catch up to each other if they drive at different speeds and that really will be a mess, so you better have your time schedule in order if you want to avoid that. I am not really sure (have not tested that yet) but I had an impression that it would be possible to put normal time interval signal posts along the rute to keep trains (more or less) separate from each other.

Offline AP

Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2017, 01:18:46 PM »
I've been experimenting with the Time Interval signalling system, and have questions:
  • What are the time interval settings for the time interval Stop and Station signals?   The video says it's "usually" 5 minutes / 10 minutes which implies other values are also used...
  • Is the time interval the same for both Station Signals and Stop Signals?
  • Are the time intervals hard coded or can the user change them?
  • Do trains released from time interval signals always travel at max speed? Or does the 3-aspect functionality of slotted signals (danger, caution, clear) imply there is an intermediate departure option where trains allowed to depart at Caution run at reduced speed - in which case what speed?
These are particularly important to understand if one is trying to engineer for a fast train to catch up with (but not collide with) a slow train. Also conversely if one wishes to dispatch a slow train immediately after a fast train, safe in the knowledge the gap between them will increase.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 01:34:43 PM by AP »

Offline jamespetts

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Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2017, 02:44:21 PM »
I've been experimenting with the Time Interval signalling system, and have questions:
  • What are the time interval settings for the time interval Stop and Station signals?   The video says it's "usually" 5 minutes / 10 minutes which implies other values are also used...

I said "usually" because the time can be set in the pakset. In Pak128.Britain-Ex, only 5/10 minutes are used.

Quote
   
  • Is the time interval the same for both Station Signals and Stop Signals?

Yes.

Quote
   
  • Are the time intervals hard coded or can the user change them?
These are set in simuconf.tab.

Quote
   
  • Do trains released from time interval signals always travel at max speed? Or does the 3-aspect functionality of slotted signals (danger, caution, clear) imply there is an intermediate departure option where trains allowed to depart at Caution run at reduced speed - in which case what speed?

Trains will travel at half line speed after passing a signal at caution in the time interval working method (with or without telegraph).
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Offline AP

Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2017, 02:49:07 PM »
So,
Trains will travel at half line speed after passing a signal at caution in the time interval working method (with or without telegraph).
So to be clear, a train whose wagons or engine choice already restrict it's operating speed to below half line speed, such as most freight trains, will not experience any speed penalty for passing a caution signal rather than a clear signal.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2017, 02:57:37 PM »
So, So to be clear, a train whose wagons or engine choice already restrict it's operating speed to below half line speed, such as most freight trains, will not experience any speed penalty for passing a caution signal rather than a clear signal.

Indeed.
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Offline Jando

Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2017, 04:28:25 PM »
What I have seen so far from the new signalling system I find very well done, congratulation!

Had a map (in 1930) with a colliery that supplied 3 different power stations about 30 kms away from the colliery. Built single line track with 3 passing loops. Token block signalling for the single line sections, absolute block signalling for the loops, the 3 platforms at the colliery and the power stations. 18 signals at 3 signal boxes used (4 signals per passing loop), works like a charm! Okay, took me about 10 attempts to get it working, but that has more to do with my lack of knowledge, haha. Wonderful new system I'd say!

Offline AP

Re: New Signalling Feedback Thread
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2017, 06:23:44 PM »
I'm experimenting with Time Interval with Telegraph single line working, it's a bit glitchy but I've reported the bugs, so hopefully we can get that running smoothly soon.

Interesting thing to note for early time interval signalling,  any pointwork counts as a junction,  and therefore needs signals both before and after to protect it,  running speed is half line speed in between.  If you forget a signal,  that restricted speed extends to wherever the next signal is,  even if halfway across the map.

Also the restriction on number of signals per box in the early years,  is a pain for complex trackwork. Careful planning needed!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 04:51:03 PM by AP »