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Simutrans reviewed in Freegamer

Started by jamespetts, February 08, 2009, 07:20:09 PM

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jamespetts

The opensource games 'blog, FreeGamer has recently reviewed Simutrans as part of a general review of opensource simulation games: see here, alongside similar games such as OpenTTD. The reviewer was somewhat critical of the UI, but stated that he found Simutrans to have more depth than OpenTTD. Notably, Simutrans was given quite a long review, and was only second on a list of about eight different opensource simulation games.

It is encouraging to see the game getting such prominent publicity - perhaps there should be some thought given as to how to deal with some of the issues raised by the reviewer, both in terms of UI design and documentation?
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sojo

#1
Your first link have a mistake.

Edit: pak96.comic is not playable? No traindepot?  ???
"English is a easy language. But not for me." ;) sojo

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jamespetts

Sojo,

fixed. As to Pak96.Comic, perhaps he selected an early starting era? That does highlight the need for documentation, though.
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sojo

Thats possible. Yes, I should write a documentation. But better in german. ;) Anybody must translate it. :D
"English is a easy language. But not for me." ;) sojo

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gauthier

I don't know the guy who have written this sh** but he should learn before saying it's unclear and many glitches ...
"unplayable" ... I haven't understood how I did but in the savegame I'm playing, I made 100.000.000.000 benefits in 6 years ! (starting with 20.000.000.000).

vilvoh

I read it few days ago, but I didn't dare to comment anything because, well, one of the main complains is about the music, that as we all know it's not a priority. Indeed, I can't remember almost any free game with good music unless it's important for gameplay, that's not Simutrans case.

I wouldn't worry too much about this,as some of the things can be fixed, i.e. text overflow in menus and messages. It's a matter of translation eficiency. People usually don't care about string lenght, and sometimes it doesn't fit well in the space that is available.

IMHO, Simutrans seems to be the "winner" in that review, but sometimes is good to have an external point of view, more or less neutral, objective and not involved in the project, to point out weak areas we usually don't notice.

As I see it, the last sentence is a reasonable constructive critic and futhermore a good point to follow:
QuoteIt just lacks the polish that OpenTTD has, and lacks a good tutorial and an intuitive user interface.

He simply says: The game is really cool but you make it more stable and create better documentation!

P.S: At least, he used the latest release (101) because there're other websites that still use 0.84 and 99.17..  :-[

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

jamespetts

Perhaps we could come up with a GUI/documentation to-do list so that developers can pick items one by one to help to make Simutrans more polished?
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vilvoh

sure, why not...anyway, he doesn't mention the Starter Guide anywhere in the review, and that's the main and most important guide for newbies in Simutrans. So, imho documentation area is well covered with it.

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

gerw

But do new players find the starter guide? I think there's provided enough documentation for simutrans. Even the in game help is very mighty - but I didn't used it, too. In my opinion, there's not too few information for new users, but they didn't find them.

Maybe we could add a small banner to the starting screen of simutrans, with informations where documantation can be found.

sojo

I think, the starterguide should be near the download at sourceforge. So you can download both.
"English is a easy language. But not for me." ;) sojo

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vilvoh

#10
There's already a banner in forum's frontpage, the problem is that it's dinamic...On the other hand, people usually don't like to read so they don't use the in-game help, which should be the first help source. A possible solution may be to make a static banner only for documentation.

good catch, Sojo!! I support it.

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

jamespetts

Perhaps the starter guide should always be bundled with every Simutrans download? And maybe an in-game tutorial, too?
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vilvoh

#12
The SG is about 8 MB so... :-\

The in-game tutorial it's not a bad idea. It may be displayed in a new window when you start a new game.

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

jamespetts

If the starter guide in PDF is so big, perhaps it ought be in HTML instead so that it can easily be bundled?
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VS

#14
Quote****
Real world lesson: You never want to alienate the press :-[

That said, the outcome of review seems to me rather logical. It states that the game has a lot of depth, and we (professionals on the subject) can see that the reviewer has problems immediately at the start of learning curve. And since he can not have time to learn how to play Simutrans to write a nice review, he writes a less nice review. But still nice! We could get some horror like "just says install pakset and crashes, 0%".

As jamespetts and vilvoh mentioned, we should take a look at that review - not as professionals who can say what it got wrong and dismiss it - but rather as professionals who can use it as a unique insight into what beginners face and analyse what the problems were.

We already have listed: probably not read reference guide. That is a bit poor, considering that it is rather well hidden. As soon as the new site from Igor goes live, we have an official homepage where we can put it a big link to it.

I am also at loss why "pak96.comic had no depot". But it says something... what?




The main problem with starter guide is images. There is lots of graphical material showing directly on screenshots how to do something.

EDIT: problem meaning - what makes it so big.

My projects... Tools for messing with Simutrans graphics. Graphic archive - templates and some other stuff for painters. Development logs for most recent information on what is going on. And of course pak128!

lukesleftleg

Hmm, now no promises here, but I'm going to have a word with my HCI (Human Computer Interaction) tutor tomorrow.
There's a blog on his site where he says he's looking for a project to get involved in, and I was going to mention Simutrans to him this week.

Simutrans might not be what he's looking for, but I'll see if I can't get him interested.
  

jamespetts

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IgorEliezer

#17
QuoteAlthough the website lists version 0.99.17 as stable, the forum lists 101.0 as the stable download and is more recent so I went with that.
http://freegamer.blogspot.com/2009/02/simulate-this-city-building-tycoon-game.html

Quote from: vilvoh on February 08, 2009, 10:01:53 PMHe simply says: The game is really cool but you make it more stable and create better documentation!

P.S: At least, he used the latest release (101) because there're other websites that still use 0.84 and 99.17..  :-[

If this is a problem, an updated Simutrans site is ready to be used and accessed:

http://www.simutrans.com (beta at http://pt.simutrans.com/newsite/)

Just need to be hosted correctly in new server, not in Isaac's server as it is now >_>. There, it's easily to find v101, manuals and tutorials. In index page, there's a button-link pointing rightly to the wiki and to the project page at SourceForge.

Simutrans doesn't need more manuals, but update and EXTEND the existing ones, i.e. wiki and docs. Wiki.simutrans.com needs more didactic and illustrated texts. Docs (SRM) is an impressive e-book site but just needs to be more publicity and EASY access.




Off-topic: I'm away from Simutrans Community for some days (1 or 2 days) until I post something solid. But, any emergency doesn't fear to e-mail me or try to find me in IRC.

I know there are some pending things to be solved... but please wait as I've waited.

Dwachs

I think the biggest obstacle for the blogger was that he was used to TTD and then tried Simutrans. In TTD the building of tracks is essentially different (one can put all 6 possible directions independently on a tile). So when you try to do a quick build, you obtain something different then what you expected. When I first tried Simutrans (after playing OpenTTD) I was quickly frustrated and did not touch Simutrans for some months.

To the music: Imho  Wesnoth has a nice ingame music. But this game is another genre (strategy) with deep developed fantasy world.
Parsley, sage, rosemary, and maggikraut.

Fabio

What i think Simutrans misses the most is a full bundle, also big (e.g. 40 MB, today many people have fast connection, the others can do as now), including exe, paks (i would say all 64, 96, 128, since you can choose the one you want to play with), starter guide and an installer (which puts also links on the desktop and start menu for both program and guide, or even for each packset and for the guide).
This would be newbie-friendly enough.

Another think i don't quite like is the wide use of such commands as CTRL+click and SHIFT+click, e.g. for parallel tracks and for tunnel entrances, and keybord shortcuts to access many views, e.g. U for underground mode.
I propose a new message type (on by default as a self closing window, switcheable off by experienced users) every time you select a tool with a brief guide on its usage (e.g. "this builds a tunnel. click on a slope to build a straight tunnel or CTRL+click on a slope to build only the entrance"). Also visualization switches should have a menu entry.

Dwachs

In addition to Fabios comment, an extended help to error messages would be nice ... I mean something, which explains "what is going wrong" and "what you can improve".
Parsley, sage, rosemary, and maggikraut.

vilvoh

That's a matter of translation. Sometimes people don't translate error messages in a clear way, but literally. Furthermore, some error messages are common to similar problems, and each one has its own way to solve it, therefore the second part would be difficult to carry out..

In reference to Fabio's all-in-one mega installation, I would say that would be a Simutrans for dummies installation.. :D

The main problem of documentation, as VS pointed out some posts ago, is that It contains a lot of big screenshots, on average one or two per page. This is good because sometimes an image is better than a thousand words, but the main disadvantage is the space it occupies. Other games have a html version, as jamespetts said, of all documentation with just plain text. Let's wait for Ormac's opinion (Master of Documentation)

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

Fabio

Quote from: vilvoh on February 09, 2009, 08:48:54 AM
I would say that would be a Simutrans for dummies installation.. :D

Well, we could call it Simutrans for dummies installation project ;)
I think it would be worthy, as opposed to the present time Simutrans for geeks installation. Every who occasional player who finds simutrans (maybe in a free games package CDs, or online) should get a fast start to get caught by the game spending only 3-5 minutes to make it run, without looking for files to download and so on. A couple of well developed savegames should be bundled too, as a tutorial for strategy and as a way to quickly show all simutrans potential. THis would be great for game reviewers as well. We want people focusing on the game not on how to install it and run it, PLAYERS (as opposed to community members) are usually lazy, let's not forget about it...

jamespetts

We probably shouldn't call it "Simutrans for dummies", as it is usually time, not intelligence, that people are lacking that dissuade them from downloading things in pieces and putting them together. Really, the all-in-one installation (both as an .exe for windows, and as a .deb/.rpm for Linux) should be the normal installation, the separate downloads being available for advanced users. It can be easy to forget sometimes that all of this seems easy to us because (and only because) we are highly familiar with the game.
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vilvoh

#24
Sounds really interesting, Fabio. You got my support. Perhaps we should continue this discussion in a new topic. Anyway, there's another problem with this all-in-one installer.Sometime ago, Prissi expressed his disagree against this way of installation, and imho if we want to suceed, the SFD installer should be included in sourceforge. So first of all we should try to convince him.




Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

freegamer

So.........

Glad you guys are mostly objectively taking the review on.  Yes, I admit I am used to TTD-style gameplay thus had to try to adjust somewhat to Simutrans.

I access Simutrans documentation from this website:
http://simutrans.sourceforge.net/

Not sure where the wiki or starter guide get linked to from there.  I admit, I could have used Google, but bear in mind I was on fullscreen on a laptop for the most part and didn't want to keep jumping out to a web browser.

Regarding the train depot on pak96.comic; I'd like to know where in the attached image is the icon for the train depot.  Perhaps I'm blind?  I see no train depot option in any of the dialogs.

freegamer

Another suggestion might be a UI for downloading alternative pak files so that pak maintainers can just upload the latest version and players can avoid the confusion that seems to occur with having so many places to go.

I see now that the Simutrans Manual link goes the Wiki.  (As a typical player I don't like to read manuals unless I'm really looking to find out the details of a game that I like.  That might sound weak, but it is true.)

vilvoh

#27
There's already a UI for that. It's called Simusetup (windows only)

P.S: Please, try not to double-post. Edit your last comment instead... ;)

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

freegamer

#1 That is Windows only.  I'm on Linux.
#2 It should really be a feature of the official game, not an add-on.  Who downloads add-ons before they actually play the original game?

vilvoh

Opss!! my fault. I forgot about Linux, although I'm a linux user too.. :)

Btw, when you talk about pak files, you really mean paksets (pak64, pak128, pak96) don't you? So what you are suggesting is a pakset updater embedded in the game, aren't you?

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

jamespetts

Freegamer,

ahh, the reason that you are missing a rail depot is that you are in 1850. Pak96.Comic is not fully playable before sometime in the middle of the 20th century, I think. If that is not in the documentation somewhere, it should be.

Generally: Freegamer does make good points. People do not generally read a separate manual to get to learn the basics, and many players will give up early if the game is not designed to be able to be understood, at least at a basic level, without having to read a separate manual. That is not because most people who play games are stupid - it is because people play games for enjoyment, and enjoyment is often undermined by having to do a great deal of work before the enjoyment can be unleashed. Whilst some might retort that the enjoyment that one gets from Simutrans far outweighs the work needed to read the manuals (and, indeed, it does), that does not help new players get into the game, because they will, generally, be highly reluctant to invest time and effort into something until they already know that it's fun for them. Reading other people tell them that it's fun won't suffice, since what is fun for other people might not be fun for them - people will generally want to experience the fun before they are prepared to do work to unleash the more advanced features.

There are two ways of achieving this: either make the game and interface so simple that it is obvious to all how it is played without having to read a manual, or make a tutorial. Since most of the fun with Simutrans comes from its depth, the first method alone cannot suffice, since it can never be made simple enough, so a tutorial of some form or other would be highly desirable. Most commercial sim/strategy games have tutorials for that very reason. That is not to say, however, that there are not one or two areas of the GUI that could not be refined to make it more obvious what things do.

The download position is a little more complicated, since there are a number of different paksets and a number of different revisions of each pakset, which are all updated asynchronously. It would indeed be possible to write cross-platform software to synchronise all of them, and have that built into Simutrans, but it would take a great deal of coder time, which is presently a limited resource. At least in the interim, a more straightforward solution needs to be considered. One possibility is this: make, for each platform, an installer for Simutrans with at least one pakset (that means, for Windows, an .exe, for Linux, a deb and an rpm). Then, for each pakset that is not included in the base installation, give it its own installer (.exe, deb, rpm, etc.), using the default directories. Make the pakset selection screen at the beginning of Simutrans a little more user-friendly (at present, it looks almost as if it is an error message - but I prefer to select with the GUI than have one fixed pakset in simuconf.tab).

The number of new users alone that that could help to bring and retain for Simutrans might well be very great indeed. (The track drawing issue is, I suspect, far harder to deal with given the present architecture for Simutrans, but it is, at least, not too bad when one gets used to it; this could be addressed in a tutorial). The more new users that are retained, the greater the number of potential contributors to the project, so improving these initial steps might well lead to a rather helpful positive feedback cycle. Perhaps the existing code for scenarios could be extended to create, in effect, a tutorial scenario? If the code for scenarios enabled arbitrary dialogue boxes to pop up when certain specific conditions are met, then that might well suffice for a tutorial.
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VS

Download places are very varied, too. That is one of the obstacles for a download manager. Maybe if all paksets were concentrated on Sourceforge, it could work. (Do they have some API for this kind of thing?)

My projects... Tools for messing with Simutrans graphics. Graphic archive - templates and some other stuff for painters. Development logs for most recent information on what is going on. And of course pak128!

prissi

We plan to bundle at least pak64 with the executable. And there is also F1 will will bring a quite extensive help window onto the screen. ALso simutrans has very little commands compared to openTTD, which uses shift-control nowaday extensively and has even a bubble help hidden in the system.

Actually, I found OpenTTD unplayable, when you got to simutrans. Especially starting trains after giving them orders is nearly impossible wihtout manual for new users ...

sojo

Hi freegame. Thank you for testing pak96.comic. jamespetts is right. Pak96.comic should not really start befor 1950.

But I have set the startyear to 1980. So you should not get some problems.

[offtopic]For pak96.comic it give no addons. All is in the Pakset[/offtopic]
"English is a easy language. But not for me." ;) sojo

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freegamer

Quote from: jamespetts on February 09, 2009, 11:48:50 AM
Freegamer,

ahh, the reason that you are missing a rail depot is that you are in 1850. Pak96.Comic is not fully playable before sometime in the middle of the 20th century, I think. If that is not in the documentation somewhere, it should be.
I think you'll agree that my approach to trying pak96.comic will be the standard new player approach...  Load Simutrans, select the pak, and start the game with default options.  That it puts the player in 1850 is not really my fault - is it?  I suspect I'm not the first person to encounter this obstacle and think "maybe not playable" about pak96.comic because of it.

Quote from: prissiActually, I found OpenTTD unplayable, when you got to simutrans. Especially starting trains after giving them orders is nearly impossible wihtout manual for new users ...
OpenTTD has more players, don't look for its weaknesses but look at its strengths as that is what draws people to it.  Great job developing Simutrans over the last few years, btw.  You and Hajo have pioneered a great game (with a bit of help of course :)).

KrazyJay

It's true, the asynchronous updating of pak sets and executables could make an all-in-one download harder to create. Otherwise a complete game with 3 pak sets included with a working installer somewhere on a dominant spot on the homepage would make Simutrans lots easier to access. I remember reading the forum for hours before knowing how to install Simutrans to start with, luckily the screenshots kept me focused.
Maybe the whole download could include the latest pak sets every forthnight. Alternatively, SimuSetup could get a more dominant role on the homepage instead. But then we do need a version for mac and Linux, too, and now we're brainstorming anyways, a built-in updater would be great, too...
Played Simutrans in:
~ The Netherlands ~ United Kingdom ~ Taiwan ~ Belgium ~


Simutrans player

Fabio

Ideas for a built in updater:
it would go into the exe. You can download only the exe. if it doesn't detect any installed pak, it prompts the player which one(s) they want to play - and it downloads and installs it. If it detects one, it loads it, but in the main menu there is a "update youd pak/get more paks" button. If more paks are detected, a GUI will prompt which one to start.

jamespetts

Fabio,

downloads it from where? Not all paksets are hosted in the same place...
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Fabio

well, this is the idea -- if such a software could be made, we would need to move all downloads in a single place. or there could be a list of URLs in a text file in a common server, redirecting to the the actual pak URL.

Something like


PAK64
http://server1.domain1/pak64_xx_xx.zip
PAK96
ftp://server2.domain2/pak96_xx_xx.zip
PAK128
http://server3.domain1/pak128_xx_xx.zip

vilvoh

BTW, I've converted the Starter Guide pdf to html and, without images just plain text, it occupies around 250 KB.

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

Ormac

Quote from: vilvoh on February 09, 2009, 08:48:54 AM
The main problem of documentation, as VS pointed out some posts ago, is that It contains a lot of big screenshots, on average one or two per page. This is good because sometimes an image is better than a thousand words, but the main disadvantage is the space it occupies. Other games have a html version, as jamespetts said, of all documentation with just plain text. Let's wait for Ormac's opinion (Master of Documentation)

I would have liked a review of the Starter Guide from a newer user's perspective. I do ask for feedback but I think I generally get very little

I do realise the Starter Guide is so large because of the images but as this was started as a personal project and I'm the one that continues to maintain and extend  the Simutrans Reference Material [Starter Guide, Reference Manual]. I enjoy having two or three images on each element I write about to keep the written instructions concise while still getting the point across with images.

I personally do not have the time or really the interest in converting and maintaining it as a single (or set of html pages) as well.

Regarding a complete bundle I think Prissi originally kept the game, pak sets and documentation seperate so people could choose exactly the configuration they wanted without having dead weight to download. Also the Starter Guide wasn't of the same quality as the Third Edition.

That's not to say it shouldn't also be provided now. But I would stay away from calling it "... for dummies" even if it's like the big yellow books. I've avoided the use of the internet newbie user phrasing and consider users either newer or experienced and people can make their own judgement as to which document to download.

I've also been putting the documents on the server for people to be able to translate although I haven't been publicising that yet if users would rather a native language Starter Guide or Reference Manual rather than English. as the number of available languages it's available in could be another drawback to the current level of documentation.

Ormac 8)
Simutrans Reference Material Blog SRM very wet ink
Download Simutrans Reference Material from http://docs.simutrans.com

Fabio

Quote from: Ormac on February 11, 2009, 05:46:17 AM
Regarding a complete bundle I think Prissi originally kept the game, pak sets and documentation seperate so people could choose exactly the configuration they wanted without having dead weight to download. Also the Starter Guide wasn't of the same quality as the Third Edition.
Also the average net connection breadth and speed are hugely increased in the last few years, so what in 2000 was a HUGE download is now just the average size. And the inclusive bundle wouldn't REPLACE the single pieces download, but be a friendlier alternative to the same.

Venkat

Good Morning,

My name is Venkat, and I am a technical writer by profession. Perhaps I can help you all in this. Please feel to reach me.

Regards,
Venkat

vilvoh

I've found another Simutrans review from a spanish site called JuegosLibres.com. As far as I read, they like the way Simutrans world evolves along the time, and they also like the scenario's approach. They point out graphics as a weak point, compared with actual 3D games with multiplayer mode, but they seem to be impressed with simutrans deep gameplay.

IMHO, they mixed some concepts like consider Simutrans as OTTD (they don't mention OTTD explicitly) but in general, the critics are good. Simutrans is getting more famous!!

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

freegamer

It's been long overdue, but I finally updated the review to reflect your responses, the availability of documentation etc.

http://freegamer.blogspot.com/2009/02/simulate-this-city-building-tycoon-game.html

Somebody also did a thorough comparison of Simutrans/OpenTTD and found in favour of Simuntras:

http://www.squidoo.com/linux-transport-simulation-showdown

TrainMith

First off, for the Starter Guide documentation, I will paraphrase:
"It's the images that make the Starter Guide so large."
and
"Without images and converted to html, the Starter Guide is around 250 Kb."
Good!  Keep it in html format, as everyone has their favorite web browser available to them (or hastily is fixing theirs ;) ).  If the pictures are so big, why are the resolutions so high?  What about cropping the image to what is really necessary?  Both of these simple, though occasionally time consuming, tasks could be applied which would be enough to get the idea across, and that really is the intent of the Starter Guide, is it not?  

Second, do NOT follow the "... For Dummies" theme for such documentation.  I found a similarly titled series for OpenGL which mentioned "Teach me like I'm a three year old."  I am neither an adolescent nor unintelligent, but I am rather insulted by the mere suggestion of such.  I am sure that the "... For Dummies" books have turned away a rather large number of people for just such a reason.  I will fully admit to being a beginner when first learning something new and untried.

Third, the F1 in game help is not helpful enough, Prissi.  It needs quite a bit of help itself, yet.  There are situations that F1 did not even have a hint of the topic, and the Starter and Reference guides were sparse in their aid.  The railroad signals, particularly the choose signal and end of choose signal, are a particular example here; I was finally able to understand how to correctly use them after 4 months of playing (amount of available free time here).  The one graphic that was almost descriptive enough is still severely lacking.  

Fourth, I agree that the "Beginner's" version of the game should be fully bundled with the Starters Guide and at least one pakset, along with several (and different map!!!) scenarios to aid the person being introduced to our game.  For the "Intermediate" or "Advanced", the smaller file sizes of just what is desired or needed, be it only the core engine or the pakset, is appropriate.  And please allow a simple installer for linux/unix, with documentation on where it put the game and how to do the intermediate or advanced way of updating the game.

Fifth, the menu icons for stations frequently are hard to see which services they provide.  Menu designers should remember that color clashes are not the only thing to look out for; similar colors will hide whichever service the station is supposed to provide.  In pak128, there are a few that I know by rote memorization from experimentation that they offer freight service, but I can't discern the pile of coal from the depicted building.  

Sixth, the "On Mouseover" feature would be a great help, with the possibility of an option toggle for the advanced players.  Likewise, though would most likely need a trigger system or something to implement, a pop-up window stating what is missing yet for a basic transportation of goods would compliment the beginner scenarios.  


If we could put check marks next to each of these points, or at least the first five, I believe that would satisfy the majority of beginners (and reviewers) that initially have trouble playing our great game.

IgorEliezer

Quote from: TrainMith on August 12, 2009, 08:09:07 AM
"Without images and converted to html, the Starter Guide is around 250 Kb."

We have a Wiki. http://wiki.simutrans.com/ We could port Starter Guide to Simutrans WIKI. This would be an EPIC WIN. ;D

sojo

Quote from: TrainMith on August 12, 2009, 08:09:07 AM
Third, the F1 in game help is not helpful enough, Prissi.  It needs quite a bit of help itself, yet.  There are situations that F1 did not even have a hint of the topic, and the Starter and Reference guides were sparse in their aid.  The railroad signals, particularly the choose signal and end of choose signal, are a particular example here; I was finally able to understand how to correctly use them after 4 months of playing (amount of available free time here).  The one graphic that was almost descriptive enough is still severely lacking.

Everybody can help to make simutrans better. If you think some things are bad, than write it better and publish it for the other users. ;)
"English is a easy language. But not for me." ;) sojo

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jamespetts

Freegamer,

thank you for the updates. One other thing; you mention in your original review that the track laying is fiddly. In recent versions, track laying by clicking and dragging is now possible (holding down CTRL to force straight lines), which makes laying diagonal track much easier. This has recently been extended to way objects (track electrification, etc.) and is planned to be extended to tunnels.
Download Simutrans-Extended.

Want to help with development? See here for things to do for coding, and here for information on how to make graphics/objects.

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Ormac

Quote from: TrainMith on August 12, 2009, 08:09:07 AM
First off, for the Starter Guide documentation, I will paraphrase:
"It's the images that make the Starter Guide so large."
and
"Without images and converted to html, the Starter Guide is around 250 Kb."
Good!  Keep it in html format, as everyone has their favorite web browser available to them (or hastily is fixing theirs ;) ).  If the pictures are so big, why are the resolutions so high?  What about cropping the image to what is really necessary?  Both of these simple, though occasionally time consuming, tasks could be applied which would be enough to get the idea across, and that really is the intent of the Starter Guide, is it not? 

The larger Screenshots are quick and keep me interested as the Author in maintaining the documentation.

Quote from: TrainMith on August 12, 2009, 08:09:07 AM
Second, do NOT follow the "... For Dummies" theme for such documentation.  I found a similarly titled series for OpenGL which mentioned "Teach me like I'm a three year old."  I am neither an adolescent nor unintelligent, but I am rather insulted by the mere suggestion of such.  I am sure that the "... For Dummies" books have turned away a rather large number of people for just such a reason.  I will fully admit to being a beginner when first learning something new and untried.

I AM NOT Taking a "...For Dummies" approach. I don't intend to belittle my audience or myself as the author.  I avoid the new user Internet phrases for a similar reason.


Quote from: TrainMith on August 12, 2009, 08:09:07 AM
Third, the F1 in game help is not helpful enough, Prissi.  It needs quite a bit of help itself, yet.  There are situations that F1 did not even have a hint of the topic, and the Starter and Reference guides were sparse in their aid.  The railroad signals, particularly the choose signal and end of choose signal, are a particular example here; I was finally able to understand how to correctly use them after 4 months of playing (amount of available free time here).  The one graphic that was almost descriptive enough is still severely lacking. 

I understand that portions of the documentation may be lacking information perhaps because I haven't got round to writing it yet or it has become dated as Simutrans has moved forward. I do update older sections if I think it needs updating, sometimes I don't get round to it when I intended. Of cource if I don't know I may not get done.

If you have a request for something to be added,improved or corrected in the Simutrans Reference Material please make post about it on the Documentation and Manuals Board
 

Quote from: TrainMith on August 12, 2009, 08:09:07 AM
Sixth, the "On Mouseover" feature would be a great help, with the possibility of an option toggle for the advanced players.  Likewise, though would most likely need a trigger system or something to implement, a pop-up window stating what is missing yet for a basic transportation of goods would compliment the beginner scenarios. 

Mouse Over tips can be enabled/disabled in simuconfig.tab [The file is in the game simutrans/config/ Directory]

Line 355 # show tooltips (default 1=show)
Line356 show_tooltips = 0


There is currently no GUI element to do this

Ormac 8)
Simutrans Reference Material Blog SRM very wet ink
Download Simutrans Reference Material from http://docs.simutrans.com

prissi

The main problem with the ingame help (apart from nobods using it judging from the lack of feedback) is that it needs to be generic. Howevrsome pakset have choose signals while other deliberately do not incorporte them.

Nevertheless with the new tool system a tool dependent help file seems perfectly possible; now just the community needs to write them.

TrainMith

Quote from: IgorTekton on August 12, 2009, 08:22:30 AM
We have a Wiki. http://wiki.simutrans.com/ We could port Starter Guide to Simutrans WIKI. This would be an EPIC WIN. ;D

Sorry, IgorTekton, but even in this day and age, not everyone has a direct internet connection to their computer.  Especially in older but less sparse sections of cities in the USA, some internet providers are refusing to install faster physical lines or upgrading existing lines.  That also applies to standard phone service!  Besides that, some people do not want to pay for bundled tv and internet, since they do not spend enough time watching tv to justify the expense (yet the cable tv providers do not want to separate the services).  I use another computer to surf the web and download the files, transfer them to a USB thumb drive, and finally to my computer.  So an internet wiki is definitely not desired, here.

Fabio

Quote from: prissi on August 12, 2009, 03:36:20 PM
The main problem with the ingame help (apart from nobods using it judging from the lack of feedback) is that it needs to be generic. Howevrsome pakset have choose signals while other deliberately do not incorporte them.

couldn't the help text be pak-dependant? so that, once a default text is written, pak maintainers can adjust it to their paksets?