Author Topic: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal  (Read 865 times)

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Offline nuhgl

Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« on: July 02, 2017, 09:13:10 PM »
Hello,

I am downgrading double tracked railway line to single track operation to reduce maintenance cost of the line.
But I can firgure it out how to place token block singnals.

I read some entry on the internet http://www.railsigns.uk/info/etoken1/etoken1.html and placed signals like this.



Could someone give advice on how to use token block singnals?


« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 09:23:31 PM by nuhgl »

Offline Vladki

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2017, 09:15:11 PM »
I'm not 100% sure, but I think the home signals should be plain signals (non-token).

Offline nuhgl

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2017, 09:18:43 PM »
Do excuse me for my lack of knowldge on signals.
What are home signals?

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2017, 09:29:48 PM »
Hello and welcome! Token block signalling is next on the list of signalling systems about which to make a tutorial video. I have, however, been concentrating on game balance, so have not got around to that yet.

In Simutrans-Extended, token block signals should be used on the entry to the single line section. In the single line section itself, one should use absolute block signals. Think of token block signals as the signals at which the line token is actually collected or deposited. Other signals should be of the absolute block working method.

And by "home signal", I think that Vladki meant stop signal (of the absolute block working method).
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Offline nuhgl

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2017, 09:37:50 PM »
Hello James,

Thanks for very helpful videos. :)

I see! I will try to set up this and see if signals works as it meant to.
And also big thanks for your time and passion for Simutrans-Extended and your work on game balance!
Good balance, so now I face downgrading my line to get out of massive debt ;)

Offline nuhgl

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2017, 10:18:23 PM »
Hello and welcome! Token block signalling is next on the list of signalling systems about which to make a tutorial video. I have, however, been concentrating on game balance, so have not got around to that yet.

In Simutrans-Extended, token block signals should be used on the entry to the single line section. In the single line section itself, one should use absolute block signals. Think of token block signals as the signals at which the line token is actually collected or deposited. Other signals should be of the absolute block working method.

And by "home signal", I think that Vladki meant stop signal (of the absolute block working method).

Token block signals should be placed at entries, should it be also placed on the exit points of the token block section supposed tokens should be deposited back?


This is what I understand use of token signals.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2017, 12:42:52 AM »
Tokens are not deposited at what I think that you mean by "exit signals" (that is, signals on a single track section where the train is facing out of the section), as the train cannot give up the token when any part of it is in the single line section. The token block signals need to be placed on the entry to the next single line section, and absolute block signals on the exit of a token block section.
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Offline Vladki

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2017, 06:37:35 AM »
By home signal I meant the signal on entry to the passing loop.




Offline Jando

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2017, 08:14:18 AM »
Hello,

I am downgrading double tracked railway line to single track operation to reduce maintenance cost of the line.
But I can firgure it out how to place token block singnals.
...
Could someone give advice on how to use token block singnals?

If you want to see an example, here is a saved game that uses token block signalling for single track segments: http://files.simutrans.com/index.php/s/NK8tlBOsqWuDDwo

Offline AP

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2017, 03:42:17 PM »
By home signal I meant the signal on entry to the passing loop.
I don't believe any such signal is required.

Offline Vladki

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2017, 06:38:03 PM »
It is needed. In token block, the track remains reserved in rear of the train until it completely passes another signal. If you would put signals only on exit of the loop, the trains would get stuck there.

Offline River

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2017, 07:04:36 PM »
what might be worth mentioning and what i have been running in to is that you need to use oneway signals aswell to prevent trains from going the other direction where you place the token block signnals. this isn't needed in standard. Also i find the absolute block a better fit.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 07:33:21 PM by River »

Offline nuhgl

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2017, 03:48:32 PM »
Is there way to prevent to happen this sort of deadlock?


Offline River

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2017, 04:44:12 PM »
Hi nuhgl,

you should remove signs S1 and S6. you shouldn't place signs (that interrupt reservations) on the single track parts where more then 1 train comes.

Offline nuhgl

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2017, 06:37:51 PM »
Hi nuhgl,

you should remove signs S1 and S6. you shouldn't place signs (that interrupt reservations) on the single track parts where more then 1 train comes.

Hey River,

If I remove S1 and S6, It could prevent it but then this could happen.

Station B upper platform is Platform 1 and down is platform 2. (diagram avobe)
Platfrom 1, there is a set of train (Train A) ready to depart at S5 to P3 East.
While waiting another set of train (Train B) on the line from East on the way to stop at Platfrom 2, East P3 to S2.
When train B clears P3 and moved in to platform 2, Train A cannot proceed.

Because train B at platform 2 is still have reservation for that.

Offline River

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2017, 06:46:31 PM »
are you by any chance using token block signals? that is the reason why i'm using the absolute block
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 07:07:13 PM by River »

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2017, 07:48:51 PM »
In reality, the way that the sort of deadlock that you describe would be prevented is by limiting the number of trains travelling on the single track section. Single track lines are generally only suited to sparse traffic. You can limit the number of trains by using the schedules and setting "wait for time" at some stops to fix the frequency of services.
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Offline AP

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2017, 02:58:18 PM »
  • Make the passing loop 2 trains long
  • position the station at one end
  • position S1 inside the loop, immediately before the platform starts.
  • position S6 inside the loop, immediately before the other platform starts
This will ensure that either S1 or S6 (but not both) can hold a train prior to the platform, but inside the loop, i.e. without blocking the loop exit. Which will stop the gridlock.

I would usually bias such a configuration so that trains could run freely away from a depot, junction, or terminus.

If you make the loop 3 trains long, you can obviously avoid the gridlock in either direction, but you start needing lots more track.

 
Is there way to prevent to happen this sort of deadlock?


« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 03:15:38 PM by AP »

Offline nuhgl

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2017, 06:52:21 PM »
Thanks for sugesstions.

However, Is there way to clear station signals (such as S2 or S5) on one station before to clear way only if S1 or S6 can be cleared?

Making loop long add up the cost of infrastructure maintance.

Offline AP

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2017, 10:43:59 AM »
It is needed. In token block, the track remains reserved in rear of the train until it completely passes another signal. If you would put signals only on exit of the loop, the trains would get stuck there.


It sounds like this is the problem. I suggest that in Simutrans-ex, the signals controlling entry into a token block section need to work like "long block" signals of old did in Simutrans-standard, that is, not allow entry into the block section until the loop is clear at the other end.

Offline River

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2017, 07:21:03 PM »
this is why i use a absolute block signal, the reservation is removed where the train has passed. for now its the best i know of how to remove the reservation.

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2017, 10:58:11 PM »

It sounds like this is the problem. I suggest that in Simutrans-ex, the signals controlling entry into a token block section need to work like "long block" signals of old did in Simutrans-standard, that is, not allow entry into the block section until the loop is clear at the other end.

That would be difficult to understand as this would not mirror how signalling works on actual railways.
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Offline AP

Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2017, 08:47:16 AM »
That would be difficult to understand as this would not mirror how signalling works on actual railways.

I disagree. It would not mirror how the signals work, but it would mirror how the signalling system as a whole works. The distinction being the presence of a signalman to make 'intelligent' decisions:

The gridlock pictured in nuhgl's diagram would not occur on actual railways. The cause of this is that the signalling currently is allowing trains into the block when the loop is already full. On an actual railway, the signalman would not allow such following trains to proceed until the loop was clear (or about to become clear). Certainly s/he wouldn't allow following trains to proceed from both directions.

Absent a signalman, I suggest the simutrans signal should perform the same check.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 02:12:03 PM by AP »

Offline jamespetts

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Re: Single Track Signalling Token Block Signal
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2017, 08:13:44 PM »
On a real railway, the deadlock would not happen because there would not be an excessive number of trains scheduled to enter a single track section at the same time, rather than because it is a feature of the signalling system that trains are not allowed into a block section until the block two sections ahead is clear. Such a system would interfere with the ordinary working of trains in situations that are not liable to lead to deadlocks, making single line working less efficient.
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