Author Topic: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011  (Read 15911 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Fifty

Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« on: July 15, 2011, 02:23:31 PM »
Hello!

I have noticed that challenges lately have slowed down significantly, so I have created a new challenge for everyone, I hope many will participate! This challenge requires pak 64, Simutrans 110.1, and this savegame: http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/1880_challenge.sve

The time is 1880, the place, a largely rural landscape known as Sylvan Oak. In early winter, a wealthy investor from a far away land and his expert engineer come and lay rail tracks after finding oil and building a chemical plant. You realize that your fathers’ land near Hillcross will not be enough to sustain all of your family, so you decide to apply for a job with the new railroad that the investor built. You are ecstatic when you are told that you received the job, and quickly become the engineer of a giant industrial beast, a 0-6-0 switching oil cars into the chemical plant.

A few months later, a man shows up at the chemical plant, and says that the investor has died, and has not left any provision in his will about the new railroad. He checks the books, and sees that the railroad is worth only a pittance, and promptly hands a box of documents to you and says: “This railroad is too tiny and obscure for me to waste another second of my time with it. Here, you look like a competent engineer, this company is yours now.” You are at once in disbelief and emboldened to prove him wrong. You look at the map and see a land of opportunities. Your job? Prove him wrong; make the company a name known everywhere for size and service.

Scoring: Pak 64 is easy economically, so net wealth will not be a factor in this game, though freeplay is off. Your ending population will be compared with others taking the challenge, with the highest population receiving 20 points, the second highest receiving 18 points, and so on. The part that makes this challenge different is that I will also give each network a subjective score between 0 and 20. This will be based on how your network looks, how fast trains go, how direct routes are, how overcrowded passenger stations are, and other factors. Since I cannot give my own network a score fairly, I will play this game, but not be part of the challenge. Post some narratives and screenshots along with your savegames, it makes things more interesting, AND you will get 5 extra points! The challenge will be based in 5 year increments, you can play as long or as short as you like, and your game will be judged every 5 years at the beginning of the year.

Rules:
1.   Use only your own player, no other players/public service
2.   Use unmodified pak 64 110.1, no addons.
3.   A native group has a monopoly on mail for 20 years. NO mail service at any time until 1900. (Rule Changed)
4.   You may NOT build new cities.
5.   Keep freeplay off.

Starting Population:22926

Sorry for the text wall. Happy playing! I hope many will join :)

Map, Click for large version:
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 10:00:07 PM by Fifty »
Why do we park on the driveway and drive on the parkway?

Offline Fifty

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2011, 08:00:10 PM »
Hmm, not many people so far ::( ... Perhaps this will just become my own story thread if no participation. I hope some pak 128 players will try out 64 for this challenge.

So Here is Chapter 1, 1880.

The new CEO stepped up to the podium at the company's de facto Hillcross headquarters to a small audience of some rail yard workers and a few rookie newspaper reporters. Between the smell of chemicals wafting from the chemical plant and the coal smoke from the locomotives, the atmosphere was not ideal, but the CEO was not phased. He said "this first year of operation has been a year to remember" and quickly began listing the accomplishments of the year, including building a chemicals line to Ashburn, Building the book shop chain in Torden, and supplying steel and planks to the Chicago Wholesaler, and starting the first passenger line, Ashburn-Chicago-Philadelphia, and finally a commuter train to the Ore Mine in Philadelphia. "Not only did we accomplish all of that" said the CEO, "but we made money doing it!" He quickly opened up a large financial statement to heavy applause.

Finances:

The CEO talked about the new powerful 0-4-0 which became very important to the profitable freight drag business. After building the book shop chain with older locomotives, these locomotives took over because of their light weight and high power.

The CEO discussed certain problems with the current setup, particularly with horse cart congestion, and then talked about the future, Including the need to build Ashburn up into a major port and rail transfer area for expanding passenger services. He stressed the importance of serving all towns along the current freight lines. At the end he said "Thank you for your attendance, and thank you for using SimuRail Corporation. With one year down, we look forward to many more serving you!"

Map:

Population:23459

Vehicles:
26 Passenger Horse Carts
2 2-4-0 (kkStB110) with 192 passenger capacity
2 2-4-0 with 72 t lumber capacity
1 Hunslet with 72 m oil capacity
2 0-6-0 (kkStB91) with 108 m oil capacity
6 0-6-0 with 112 crates boxed goods capacity
2 0-4-0 with 64 rolls paper capacity
2 0-4-0 with 153 t lumber capacity
3 0-4-0 with 144 t bulk goods capacity
1 0-4-0 with 160 t steel capacity
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 08:05:47 PM by Fifty »
Why do we park on the driveway and drive on the parkway?

Offline Optimix

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2011, 09:44:27 PM »
Really great that there is a new challenge again. Perhaps the good old days of the Ragoland-challenge are returning with so many people playing, and discussing. That was fun.

I had enough plans to post a new challenge too, but I always decided to wait with that, because I thought there was really no interest in challenges anymore, or that I missed something in a message somewhere on the forum, that new challenges are forbidden  ;D

Hmm, not many people so far ::( ... Perhaps this will just become my own story thread if no participation.

Come on, your challenge is 3 days old; it is all very complicated, long story, large map, and extremely long period of playing. I think 5 years takes 2 days non-stop playing. I think people are trying out your challenge and are planning how to do this. Sure there will be participants, but not in 3 days.

You can be sure I will participate, but it cost some time. This is all really different from other challenges: no money problems, large map, lot of cities, and not to forget extremely slow locomotives. We have to think about that!  ;D

Perhaps an idea to change the 5 year period in a 2 year period? Only a suggestion: it is YOUR challenge! :-)
Greetings!



Offline Anime

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2011, 07:22:06 AM »
If enough people participate I'll have a look too :) As Optimix said, the Ragoland days we're awesome... Too bad LeifInge, Severous and some other players quit playing...

Offline Anime

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2011, 08:04:50 AM »
Mmhh. Just checking the map. Should I create a passenger train line that uses the same tracks as the oil-line or should I make it partially seperate or what... I guess making an entire different passenger line is quite expensive.

Offline ojii

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2011, 08:41:18 AM »
Started this one too. I'll add some screenshots/story as soon as I got some time.

It's interesting how Fifty decided to play this, I went a slightly different route by making a Mead-Ashburn ship route (both for goods and passengers) and added passenger service along the existing freight line between Atlanta and Hillcross as well as extending it to Mead. In Ashburn there's a Passenger line to Chicago and Chicago, Torborough and Atlanta have horse carriages (with the ones in Atlanta also connecting to Richmond and Walton).

Since I usually play passenger only, I only added two new freight lines so far: The book shop chain and the chemicals line to Ashburn.

Offline Sybill

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2011, 04:39:37 PM »
Hi,
i encountered this challenge yersterday and had to download a new version of pak64 first, because of my numerous addons, and here is my situation after one year of playtime:

Since the goal is not to make money but to grow the population  i started with passenger transport in nearby cities, and i have some citybuses in larger cities. I included the paper mill, the printing works and the bookshop in the railsystem, but that was not my priority. I have a shipline from Ashburn to Annapolis, this is very costly at the beginning, but i love this Scotia Schooner, it's for my own pleasure.

Here is a screenshot from the beginning of year 1881:
http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/1880_challenge_Sybill_1881.png

Offline Anime

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2011, 07:27:38 PM »
Started playing. I hope my plan works out, the first year i'm going to focus on the industries, get my economy flowing. I might connect a few villages, but only with horses, not with trains.
This is what my main 'industrial area' looks like. Not anything special. I'll post some more screens In a few hours orso.

Offline Optimix

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2011, 08:51:00 PM »
Nice that there are a lot of participants now. Funny to read,
that everyone ues a different way to play.

I am half the year 1881 now, and I connected all the cities,
and most of the attractions. There are no money problems
anymore, and I can build everything I want.

I focussed on passengers only, and left the industy because I
get crazy of it  ;D There is something very strange in this
scenario. It looks like if there is an option, economy VERY
fluctuating. Most of the time I can only choose between
2 bad things. Empty trains waiting for nothing, or heavy
overcrowded industry stops. Am I the only one with this
problem? Sometimes during 2 months no oil or no wood at all.
And then suddenly so much wood and oil, that you never can
transport it, or you have to use stations of 12 platforms and
12 trains. And if you built that all, production stops  ;D

« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 01:39:57 AM by Optimix »

Offline ojii

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2011, 11:27:35 AM »
I've restarted this challenge, since I didn't like my ship-based approach.

As the CEO of Hillcross Railways I'm proud to look back at the first 3 years of this company. We were able to achieve many important goals:

- Streamlining the Hillcross Chemical Plant Station to improve the oil supply chain of the plant, as well as improving the shipment of the produced goods.
- The completion of the Book Chain at Torborugh
- The construction of the Ashburn Main Line connecting Hillcross Chemical Plant Station with Ashburn Station on which the Ashburn Freight Line (pharmaceutics), the Hillcross - Ashburn Line (passengers) and the Ashburn Coal Line (coal) provide a good connection between the Ashburn area and the Hillcross area.
- The completion of the Steel Chain at Chicago.
- The Hillcross - Atlanta passenger service with stops at Atlanta Station, Torborough Station, Hillcross Chemical Plant Station, Hillcross Station, Hillcross North and Hillcross Coal Mine
- The Atlanta - Walton Commuter Line connecting Atlanta Station to Walton.
- Horse Carriage Service in Atlanta, Chicago, Philadelphia and Ashburn.
- The Ashburn - Philadelphia Line connecting Ashburn with Chicago and Philadelphia.
- Proceeds exceeding 1 million in 1882 with an operational profit of almost half a million, which is a great recovery after the terrible year 1881 during which Hillcross Railways nearly went bankrupt.

I'm also very excited about the future plans of Hillcross Railways, which is determined to provide excellent connections between all towns in the area and employment to it's citizens.

Our next plans will be:

- The construction of the Hillcross - Mead Line
- Connecting Shalimar, Campbell, Yorktown and Oakcross with Atlanta
- Connecting Annapolis with Ashburn
- Providing passenger service between Chicago, Chincoteague Steel Mill Station and Chincoteague
- Make the Philadelphia Main Line fully double track
- Make the Ashburn Main Line fully double track

Please enjoy this picture of Chicago with the Philadelphia Main Line (North/South connection), the Ashburn Main Line (North/Southwest connection) and the beginning of the Chinconteague Spur Line (East):


Visible on the screen are following trains:

- An Ashburn - Philadelphia Line train approaching Ashburn Station in the north.
- An Ashburn Coal Line train at the Ashburn Main Line/Philadelphia Main Line intersection
- A Chinconteague Coal Line train northwest of Chicago on it's way to Chinconteague Steel Mill Station
- The two Chinconteague Steel Line (1 and 2) trains waiting for goods near Chinconteague Steel Mill station
- The Hillcross - Ashburn Line train on the Ashburn Main Line in the southwest.

Offline Fifty

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2011, 05:04:18 PM »
Wow! lots of interest and many players! This is great! Lots of great networks here!

Perhaps an idea to change the 5 year period in a 2 year period?

For now I am going to keep 5 year periods, but If some others ask, I will be happy to shorten it.
There is something very strange in this
scenario. It looks like if there is an option, economy VERY
fluctuating. Most of the time I can only choose between
2 bad things. Empty trains waiting for nothing, or heavy
overcrowded industry stops.

One thing about the industry on this map is that it is capable of producing more goods than are needed. For instance, the steel mill can produce over 3000 units/month, but the wholesaler needs only over 300 units per month. You just have to let stations get overcrowded when production is more than consumption. Since trains need to queue, I have built some sidings where certain trains are directed to by waypoints.
Chemical plant with siding:  Paper mill with pre-signal siding:

Ch. 2 1881

The CEO stepped up to a more glamorous podium this year, this time at the Port of Ashburn, which has become one of the key passenger hubs. He stated that the company would change its name to SylvanRail Corp. to better reflect that the railroad is to serve the people of Sylvan Oak. He then rattled off a list of accomplishments in chronological order.
  • Passenger Service Ashburn-Hilcross-Torborough-Atlanta (with connections to Walton and Richmond)
  • Fully Double tracking the Ashburn-Atlanta and Ashburn-Philadelphia Line
  • Building a line from the Steel mill spur to Harrington and Starting two services: Ashburn-Chincoteauge-Harrington (with connections to delmar) and Chincoteauge-Chicago
  • Building a Boat line to Annapolis
  • Connecting Oakcross/Yorktown and Shalimar to Atlanta
  • Building a boat line from Annapolis to Montrose and road lines to Ouray and Durnago
  • Building a boat/carriage line to Durham and attractions
  • Building a railroad to Mead
  • Building a boat line to northern attractions
  • Solving Horse cart congestion problems with a new tunnel in Atlanta

He proudly announced that only 4 towns remained unconnected, and stressed that they would be connected next year. "Despite record profits and travels, we still have many problems, particularly related to congestion on the hastily built northwest lines. Our engineers have been working on trying to solve those problems and connect new cities to the network. Here is a compilation of the ideas, we appreciate your thoughts."
 

Screenshots:
Map:  Finances:
Port of Ashburn, Busy as always, see the new cathedral and town hall:

Two trains "racing" to the Chincoteauge "Y".


Population:27179 (+3720)

Vehicles: All Freight Trains are the Same as 1880.
213 Passenger Horse Carts
32 2-4-0 (kkStB110) with 192 passenger capacity
22 Novia Scotia Schooners
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 09:57:30 PM by Fifty »
Why do we park on the driveway and drive on the parkway?

Offline Anime

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2011, 05:14:13 PM »
I have the same overcrowding problem as you guys do. I've just finished my first year. I've connected Atlanta, Richmond and Walton by horse. Ashburn, Chicago en Philadelphia by train. I'm going to connect the quarries to the steelmill near Philadelphia next.



Edit:
****... After reading Fifty's post, I feel like he did like 10 times more investments and building than I did I year one haha. Good job Fifty!

Offline Sybill

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2011, 03:53:45 PM »
Ladies and Gentleman,
let me show you the accomplishments of our company in the year 1881:
Annapolis has established itself as a centre of tourism with its spectacular wooden bridge on the way to Durham Manor and it's connections to the famous skiing grounds of Montrose, Ouray and the Castle of Crazy King Albert. So we had to strengthen our ship line to this beautiful city.
Our profit wasn't great last year, but we reinvested our earnings in a vast road net, that reaches from Annapolis in the North to Shalimar in the South, via Durham, Hillcross, Torborough, Walton, Richmond and Atlanta. Ashburn was connected with Chicago, and via Chincoteague, Harrington and Delmar with Philadelphia.
We have 135 horse carriers working for us now, and bringing passengers to their destinations.
Our goals for the next year are: connecting the remaining cities and more attractions to our road network, building some passenger rail lines and maybe improve the industrial rail network and connect more industries.

Screenshot from the beginning fo 1882:
http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/1880_challenge_Sybill_1882.png

Offline Anime

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2011, 06:28:27 PM »
Sybill, I see you did everything by cart. Doesn't it take far too long to transport people that way?

Offline Optimix

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2011, 07:11:11 PM »
Well, I finished my job for the first 5 years.
I can only hope that Mr. Fifty is a little bit
satisfied with this attempt. I am still puzzling
how to avoid overcrowding stations. The most
important problem for me, is the speed of the
trains. A Loc with about 7 cars, filled with coal,
steel, iron ore or such stuff is running 5 km/hour,
while a maximum speed is 75 km/h. Every transport
takes a few months, especially the coal trips to the
steel mill. I think I have to build a 25 track spread out
station, to get it uncrowded.

About after 3 years playing I got a new industy chain,
with wood, bookshop, printing works and paper mill.
I started in the first year with ringlines. To avoid unlogical
travels for the passengers, I made services in both
directions. And later I put some extra lines, so that
passengers could easy travel everywhere they want,
without too many transits

This is only a first attempt; it's a really challenge to find
solutions for the fluctuating economy; that is the most
difficult part in this challenge. Here is my saved game
and some screenshots. Now I am going to eat and sleep
again  ;D

http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/1880_challenge_023_FINAL.sve


Offline Sybill

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2011, 07:43:57 PM »
My next two years:
1882:

All cities and some attractions are now connected and we are proud to present our first rail lines from Chicago to Philadelphia, and from Chicago to Hillcross.
Durango, Big Sky, Cumberland, Mead and Campbell were the last cities to become a part of our transport net.
Hillcross has become really a cross now with the rail track to Chicago and the roads to Durham, Mead and Torborough.

http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/1880_challenge_Sybill_1883.png

1883:

We expanded our transport net with the lines Chicago-Walton, Walton-Philadelphia and Hillcross-Muncie and replaced the horse carrier services through trains on the lines Hillcross-Durham, Durham-Annapolis and Atlanta-Richmond.

Finally we managed to supply the steel mill with coal and ore, and the wholesale shop with steel and planks in an underground station.

http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/1880_challenge_Sybill_late1883.png

@Optimix
Your save is quite impressive, but - i'm sorry to say it - i don't like it, it's a rail monster and doesn't look very realistic. There are some cities enclosed by train tracks and mega stations, and i'm curious what you will do in the next 5 years. But i'm sure i won't get the growth of population, you have in my last remaining year.

@Anime
Carts are slow and not very profitable, but i wanted to have a more realistic map, not cities with train connections everywhere but no roads between them, and i wanted the cities to grow along the roads. I may not win this contest, but it looks nicer for me that way.

Offline Anime

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2011, 10:44:56 PM »
@Optimix Nice save. You did an impressive job. Just like you i have the same problem of overcrowed stations etc. If i had known that crowded stations would've been such a problem I would've designed my network different.

@Sybill I get your point but carts don't transport much people, so towns won't grow as quickly as when you'd use trains.


This is my safe btw, I'm still in 1882, netwealth is around 912.000

Offline Fifty

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2011, 09:54:42 PM »
Again lots of nice networks and progress here. I'm Impressed!

Perhaps I was not clear about overcrowded stations. I DON"T care if freight stations are overcrowded, only if passenger stations are. Building thousands of units of freight storage only makes things very unrealistic! But passenger volumes and crowding are designed to be the big challenges here.

@All, Changing the rule on mail. No mail, ever. Sorry to those of you who like moving mail!

@Optimix, I looked at your save, and indeed it is impressive, though I think I share Sybill's feelings on it being a bit unrealistic. Since realism is one of the subjective factors that I am looking at, I took that into consideration in giving your network a subjective score of 13. Your population is 35707 (+12781), and you have an extra 5 points! So good job! I'll start a leader board once more people have their network. One more thing I might ask is, why don't you use lines? It must take forever to give each individual vehicle its own schedule or try to update the schedules.

So here is my next chapter, 3, 1882.

The CEO Made his speech from Muncie this year, the newest major transfer station in the SRC network. "This year" he opened, "has been another year of phenomenal growth and expansion. This four track station did not even exist last year! After socking away cash for the last months of 1881, in the first two months of 1882 we spent over a million credits building new lines, stations, and trains in the western portion of our network. We built almost all of our engineers' suggestions, including a Philadelphia-Muncie line, an Annapolis-Durham-Atlanta line, a Big Sky-Muncie line, and a Annapolis-Ouray-Muncie-Atlanta Line. In April we finished connecting all of the cities and attractions to the network, and later in the year, a new pharmacy opened in Shalimar, which promptly got service from the chemical plant."

He then listed all of the passenger train and boat services now offered:
  • Ashburn-Chicago-Philadelphia
  • Ashburn-Hillcross-Torborough-Atlanta
  • Ashburn-Annapolis (Boat)
  • Ashburn-Chincoteauge-Harrington
  • Chicago-Chincoteauge
  • Atlanta-Shalimar
  • Atlanta-Oakcross
  • Annnapolis-Montrose-Ouray-Durango branch-Attractions-Muncie-Cumberland-Campbell-Atlanta
  • Annapolis-Durham-Cumberland-Campbell-Atlanta
  • Muncie-Mead-Hilcross-Philadelphia
  • Big Sky-Muncie
  • Big Sky Attractions-Muncie
  • Philadelphia Commuter Service
  • Ashburn-Northwest Attractions (Boat)
  • Asburn-Durham Castle (Boat)

Despite this progress, he cautioned the looming problems of congestion: "We have spent much time this year battling congestion in our cities, particularly in Ashburn and Chicago, where loop carriage lines within the city became bi-directional to reduce congestion. The problem in Atlanta Continues, and we need to find a permanent solution to carriage bottlenecks and an overcrowded station."

Map:  Finances:

Population:33380 (+6201)

Vehicles: All Freight trains the same except there are 2 more 0-6-0 kkStB 91s with 112 crates boxed goods capacity, bringing the total to 8.
296 Passenger Horse Carts
63 2-4-0 (kkStB110) with 192 passenger capacity
20 Novia Scotia Schooners
Why do we park on the driveway and drive on the parkway?

Offline Anime

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2011, 10:59:33 PM »
I'm, currently in the last year now. I've connected al cities and added lots of direct lines.

Its hard to find ways how to uncrowd cities and stations. Anyone got tips/ideas?

Offline Optimix

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2011, 11:44:53 PM »
Sybill wrote:
"Your save is quite impressive, but - i'm sorry to say it
 - i don't like it, it's a rail monster and doesn't look very
realistic. There are some cities enclosed by train tracks
and mega stations, and i'm curious what you will do in the
next 5 years. But i'm sure i won't get the growth of population,
you have in my last remaining year."

It's fun to watch that you are playing very different. Very
interesting what will happen in your scenario, and if your
plan to let grow the cities will succeed.
No need to say "sorry" if you dont like my scenario. I like
to hear opinions of other players. I dont know what you
mean by a "rail monster". Too many trains? Too big stations?
Too many tracks? See below my opinion about what is realistic.
What do you mean by "enclosed cities"? Locked by
rail-tracks? Perhaps are rail-tunnels a realistic option?

Anime wrote:
"Optimix Nice save. You did an impressive job. Just like you i have the same problem of overcrowed stations etc. If i had known that crowded stations would've been such a problem I would've designed my network different."

Thanks for your compliments. It seems you have the same
problems like me. "Gedeelde smart is halve smart"
(translate that in English!)  :-)
Is it  possible for you to transport all the passengers with
busses in a city? I cannot get all the passengers away into
the city, from the main trainstation. In Chicago are waiting
more than 4000 passengers for the bussstops in
the city. I think I have 30 busses now in Chicago, and I am
afraid, soon everything stucks, if I buy more busses. I tried
trams too, but thats no option. Is it possible for you to upload
a larger picture of your game? I just cant read/watch it.

Fifty wrote:
"@Optimix, I looked at your save, and indeed it is impressive, though I think I share Sybill's feelings on it being a bit unrealistic. Since realism is one of the subjective factors that I am looking at, I took that into consideration in giving your network a subjective score of 13. Your population is 35707 (+12781), and you have an extra 5 points! So good job! I'll start a leader board once more people have their network. One more thing I might ask is, why don't you use lines? It must take forever to give each individual vehicle its own schedule or try to update the schedules."

Thanks for your compliments. I am happy with the points you
gave me! :-) To you and to Sybill: can you give me some
definitions of what is realistic? I think this is very subjective.
For me is a realistic scenario, that every passenger can travel
to any passenger-stop, without enormous strange trips. In my
scenario, every passenger can travel to every destionation,
in not more than 2 or 3 transits. In the scenario of Sybill: how
to travel from Durango to Big Sky? These poor people have to
travel via Duray, Montrose, Annapolis, Durham and Muncie, and
even need a ship in the north, while Durango and Big Sky are close
together. They will travel for weeks or months! Same for passengers
from Philadelphia to the south-east of the map. And what about
hundreds of busses with 20 km/h for long trips, all in a enormous file,
while trains are available with 50 km/h? I really dont blame you both
for that; only want to say that my opion about realistic is a little
different. That's all!  ;D

So what to do to make a map "realistic". Not to build to much, and leave
many things untouched? If there are thousands of tons of paper or
iron ore, then you need big stations, and many tracks, because the trains
are to slow. Same with passengers.

Your hint about using line-management is of course very good. I
discovered it myself, when I was playing from the year 1885. I deleted
almost all ringlines, and made straight lines with line numbers. Much
easier to handle. I am in 1887 now, and it looks like that the possibilities
to let the cities grow are enormous.




Offline Fifty

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2011, 01:32:38 PM »
Its hard to find ways how to uncrowd cities and stations. Anyone got tips/ideas?
Here are a few of my strategies to fight congestion:
  • Build the station bus stops not on a dead end, and then make a loop service in both directions in the cities. I have 13 carriages per direction in one of two lines in Atlanta
  • Make carriage lines have few stops
  • Make each station have multiple bus stops
  • Build underground rail lines in the center of the city
  • "Cheat" and use trains on tram tracks in the city
Nonetheless, I still have many crowded stations (Particularly Atlanta)

To you and to Sybill: can you give me some
definitions of what is realistic? I think this is very subjective.
...If there are thousands of tons of paper or
iron ore, then you need big stations, and many tracks, because the trains
are to slow. Same with passengers.

I think the industry in your game is the unrealistic portion. As I said in my last post, I don't care if industry stations are overcrowded. Right now, you have big stations and lots of trains that right now sit idle, but here is how I think about it. The Wholesaler needs 300 units of steel per month. You need, based on the ratios you find on the steel mill dialogue, 2 t ore and 1/2 t coal per unit of steel. This means you only need to bring 600 units of ore and 150 units of coal into the mill each month. The mines can produce much more than this, so their stations will get overcrowded, but the wholesaler will still be fully supplied, despite the crowding. If you build very small stations (1 or 2 platforms) for freight and add some waiting sidings where trains can queue, fewer goods will be stockpiled. Look at my second post and see how few trains I use to supply all industries!

The track network is also a bit unrealistic. With as little freight as there is, I don't see the need for separate freight tracks. Also, some of your tracks go right up steep grades when it makes more sense to go around them. I also think the bridges across the sea are a bit unrealistic, though I use them sometimes too ;)

Big passenger stations are definetly needed, and I think locally, your passenger routing is pretty direct. Anyway, just my thoughts. Play any way you like :)
Why do we park on the driveway and drive on the parkway?

Offline Anime

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2011, 01:55:44 PM »
@ Optimix I added 30 (!!!) extra horse carts to Chicago and Atlanta, but the congestion problem got worse, haha. I realy don't know how to un-congest the stops inside the villages. I managed to un-congest the stations by adding lots of extra station buildings to increase passenger capacity as seen on this pic.



@ Fifty
Thanks for the tips. I'll have to try the train-as-tram- option. i hope that'll work.

Offline Anime

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2011, 02:52:47 PM »
http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/1985.sve
I finished the challenge with a population of around 36.000. My profit and netwealth weren't as high as Optimix'. Net wealth was 7.1 million if I recall right.

Offline Optimix

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2011, 03:43:18 PM »
Hey there Anime, you cheated! The name of your file is 1985.
So you played 105 years instead of 5!

Thanks for the larger pictures. Your map looks great. I am
impressed by the possibility for passengers to go everywhere
they like, with logical routes. And especially all these signals.
Using railtracks for different trains is always nice. Good work!

How are you going to manage this, for the next five years?
Rebuild? The number of passengers in the staions will only
grow, so you have to do something to solve that.

I have deleted all my industry stuff, and I am only working
with passengers now. I am also deleting the busses in the
cities where it is not to handle anymore, and I put one or
2 large train-stations in the centre, sloping some roads.
Very stupid that I did not use line numbers for the busses.
To get 92 busses without line-number in a depot is a lot of
work.....

Fifty, thanks for your answer. I would suggest not to use
the cheat trains on tram-rails. But you have to decide that,
because you are the boss of this challenge :-)
Your scenario is fun to play, and it is a little addicting.

Offline Anime

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2011, 04:23:25 PM »
Haha. Fail on my part. Ofc its 5 years :D But may I ask how you did the 2 stations in the centre (screenshot ?), i don't completely understand what you mean. And isn't it costly do delete all the industries?

Offline Optimix

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2011, 07:07:53 PM »
YES Anime, it cost me very much money to destroy the industry stuff.
And now it seems my trains do not make much profit. A lot of
months with negative income. But I had some money buffer, and
now my income is about 0 each month.

pic 1: here the result of Philadelphia: all busses deleted and started
again, with less stops for each bus. But it seems that this does not solve
the problem as you can see. I have to delete that AGAIN. I am getting
crazy of these stupid slow busses :-)

pic 2: one example of a trainstation Chicago Townhall in the middle
of the city. Gives a lot of passengers.

pic 3: I like this way: smaller train in a circle around the city.
When new buildings appear, its easy to expand the line with
new stops.




Offline Sybill

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2011, 03:53:53 PM »
This is my save in 1885:
I started with roads and made my first rail line in 1882, so my rail net is far from perfect and needs still a lot of improvement. I didn't have the time to connect all industries, I will do so in the next five years. As Anime has foretold me the population growth isn't so high with cart travel, and my profit is far below of yours. On the other hand I have some nice looking cities, not so many overcrowding problems (because I have still less travellers) and a lot left to do for the next five years.

http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/1880_challenge_Sybill_late1884.png
http://simutrans-germany.com/files/upload/1880_challenge_Sybill_1885.sve

@Fifty
Why would there be no mail service? Maybe we could found a second company for mail service only?
To have a train going through the city on tram rails may be a bit unusual, but it's not impossible, look this on youtube (last time I posted a link in this forum I was warned by the administrators, so you have to copy it), it's the "Molli Bahn" in Bad Doberan, Germany (ok it's not a tram track, it's narrow-gauge but on a "Rillenschiene", I don't know what's that in english).

#http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wNctUSM-Mc&feature=related

@Optimix
With "realistic" I meant like in real life. If you're a citizen in a real town, is it normal to have the possibility to travel to all towns in the country by train, but being not able to go to the neighbouring city with your own horse carriage because there are no roads?
I'm sure, if the passengers had to choose between my road- and rail network and yours they would opt for yours 100%, it's far more convenient for them, but it's not realistic. The second point was the industrial net of yours, you produced loads of steel for one little wholesale shop. With "enclosed" I meant with rails on each side.
Oh and I can translate it in german "Geteiltes Leid ist halbes Leid". ;D

@Anime
I really like the cell like structure of your net, this looks very nice, and I was surprised by your wood carriages.

I may come last in the challenge but it was fun to play and it gave me some inspiration for my own pakset.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 05:15:23 PM by Sybill »

Offline Anime

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2011, 04:23:47 PM »
@Optimix haha. Sounds like an expensive joke. I'm not sure If i'll continue playing for another five years. I'm just not that patient to continue. I'll be waiting for a new challenge. I 'm really liking pak 64 but if someone were to make a pak128 wich aimes at netwealth/growth challenge I'll definitely join. I tried your challenge but its too hard for me lol.

@Sybill
Thanks. My network was heavily based on Optimix' network. Not the lines itself, but after I saw Optimix' pics I decided to connect everything by train instead of doing 50/50 with train/carriages.

Offline Optimix

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2011, 07:01:29 PM »
Anime, dont tell me that you stop playing! This is our chance to
show that people in our country are very good in simutrans playing!
 ;D
But of course I understand it a little bit. I was studying your result
for the first 5 years: it looks beautiful with all these signs (very very
complicated) but to expand perhaps you have to delete a lot,
because you need longer trains for the next 5 years. I just finished my
next 5 years. Sometimes with a speed up (+2.0  or +3.0) because I
am not so patient too. My monthly income is very poor, but the cities
are growing. And I found some solutions for crowded bus-stops.
The solution is: DELETE them :-)

You write that you are waiting for a new challenge: It's all my pleasure
to construct one for you. Give me some thoughts you like in that
challenge (duration, simutrans version, pak, an goal of the challenge etc.)
and I will make one for you.

Sybill, in the picture of your result I can see that now all passengers can
travel to everywhere. That is nice! I would be so glad to watch your map,
but I cant load it. My simutrans version gives a fatal error. Do you know
any solution?

My compliments for you great translation of "gedeelde smart is halve
smart". :-) I am not sure if a agree with your opinion, to travel with
a bus, while there is a train, if I want to visit a village in the
neighbourhood of my place of living. I think I would choose for the
train. But of course I can connect all the cities with roads, in my
next 5 years. Only I cant promise that there are busses there,
because this will sure give overcrowded stops.

A wonderful video on youtube. I guessed this was somewhere in the
south of Germany. (If I am right something like that we can see in
Switzerland too) I searched it in Google Maps, and I was surprised this
is in North-Germany, in the neighbourhood of Lubeck. Wow, I think I
am going to live there, to watch that beautiful train every day! :-)

In the movie you can see that the train is driving in the centre of a
city. Strange I cant see that on the map. It looks like, if the train
only passes in the south of the city......... could it be, that this
route is not on the map?

 

Offline Anime

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2011, 07:13:21 PM »
@Optimix
Yeahyeah. Dutch folks rule at Simutrans, too bad there aren't more of us haha, but I don't like the notion of having to delete big parts of my save in order for it to grow. I'm really good at messing stuff up etc. But if you say it worked for you I might try...
But as for the challenges; I'm really bad at pak128, because its economicly harder (imo) than pak64. I like challenges that are netwealth-citygrowth oriented (like the Rogaland challenge, that was a great one). A pak 128 challenge would be nice (i could practice a bit lol,) but I doesn't really matter for me. 5 years is a right timelenght for a challenge imo.

Offline Sybill

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2011, 07:24:45 PM »
I don't understand, why you can't load my save. I used a nightly version of simutrans r4696 (mainly because i had a bug in the stable version with harbours on new maps) and the newest version of pak 64 (110.0.2) r516  from the same page. I don't have any addons in it or something special, so  it should work. I'm playing on a linux system, maybe the windows version is different in some way? I have no problems with your saves.
Maybe it's because I play it in german? I uploaded it again with some name changes, can you try it again?

The rail line on the map is a modern rail, not the Molli Bahn, the Molli Bahn goes straight through the center of Bad Doberan. There is a street called "Mollistraße" on the map, that's where the train goes, you have to zoom in to see it.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 08:17:47 PM by Sybill »

Offline Optimix

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2011, 09:10:17 PM »
Sybill, I am not an expert with all these versions of Simutrans.
I use the version Mr. Fifty announced, and I had to download that,
because I only played untill now with the stable version.
Here 2 pics; perhaps you can see what's happening, or maybe
someone else knows a solution. I would really like to watch your map.
And a pic of that great train too. Found it on the internet.


Offline Sybill

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2011, 09:51:42 PM »
Ok, I tried it myself and got the same error, I found the reason in the german forum:

Quote
Mit neuen Versionen kann sich die Revisionsnummer der Spielstände ändern. Immer wenn sich diese Revisionsnummer ändert, kann es passieren, das ältere Spielstände nicht geladen werden können. Dies betrifft vor allem Spielstände, die mit den Nightlys gespeichert wurden.

I'm sorry about that, I didn't know this could happen. The only thing I can do is, to start from scratch with the version you use - I would play different this time, I think. But when I use this version, I get the ship depot bug, so I don't want to use it for other games.

ship depot bug:
http://www.simutrans-forum.de/forum/thread.php?threadid=6321
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 09:57:49 PM by Sybill »

Offline TurfIt

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2011, 10:11:16 PM »
The savegame version was changed as of nightly r4437. Any nightly version newer than that should be able to load the game linked above. The last release 110.0.1 is equivalent to r4359, too old to know about the changed savegame version, and hence unable to load it.

Offline Fifty

Re: Sylvan Oak Challenge -- July 2011
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2011, 07:14:38 PM »
Reviewed the next two networks, I gave Sybill a 16 and Anime a 14.5 (Couldn't decide between a 15 or a 14, split the difference). Downloaded the latest nightly to load Sybill's map; brought back lots of nostalgia from the early days on prissi's multiplayer server when only nightlies worked and all of the stop names were in German :). I still miss prissi's great maps... anyway, Here's a Leader board for 1885:
NamePopulationRank/pointsSubjective+5?Total
Anime36613 (+13687)#1/2014.5Yes39.5
Sybill33631 (+10705)#3/1616Yes37
Optimix35707 (+12781)#2/1813Yes36

Congrats to all! I've been busy with non-Simutrans things, so I still haven't finished my first five years yet...

Good to hear that ship depot bug is fixed, though it should work once you load a game that has already been saved once. The new nightlies have Knightly's patch for industries, which significantly changes those passenger loads, but otherwise I think running costs, ect. are the same.
 
Why would there be no mail service? Maybe we could found a second company for mail service only?
Population will grow very fast with mail service too, so fast that it becomes unmanageable fast, and this is supposed to be a long term challenge. Would you suggest that I remove it altogether or change it back to 1900 or 1890 when mail can start? One big problem is that there are no new locomotives except for the ed 2x2 (imo useless) until 1900 (A new locomotive, particularly for passengers. would be great here). Any suggestions?

... it gave me some inspiration for my own pakset.
You are working on a pakset? May I ask for more details? This sounds interesting, and I would be happy to test...

With regard to trains running on tram rails, it indeed was very common in early cities here in the USA too. "Rillenschiene" literally translates to "grooved rail" in English, but in context I think it means "Street running trackage," where trains run right through the streets of town to reach a station. If you search Youtube for "Street running train" you will see many clips of US Freight trains (Still!) running right down the main streets of many towns, as well as many stupid drivers thinking trains can stop for them...

And Anime, though it would be nice for you to play another 5 years, that is one of the nice things about this challenge, play as long or as short as you like. Many thanks for your participation!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 02:05:08 AM by Fifty »
Why do we park on the driveway and drive on the parkway?