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Author Topic: End Of Choose  (Read 5231 times)

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Offline Vladki cz

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End Of Choose
« on: September 09, 2012, 07:03:48 PM »
While working on my own signals I have noticed an unexpected behavior of endOfChoose signals. A train heading to a platform "protected" by end of choose signal, will not choose any other platform when its scheduled platform is occupied. See the attached screenshot.

Offline Ters

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2012, 07:17:47 PM »
To me that's the expected behaviour. The trains destination isn't choosable, as no choose signal leads there due to the end-of-choose, so it can't just choose another destination either. If the destination should be chooseable, let the destination be chooseable.

Offline Václav

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 07:22:06 PM »
Ters: you can agree or not - but I think that end of choose is not well fitting name.

Vladki: using of end of choose on such (small) stations is a bit useless - using of end of choose is useful only on large stations where crossing of trains may cause big problems - and there, better using of end of choose is in sequence (from station): pre-signal - choose signal - end of choose - choose signal.

This sequence will lead trains to group of platforms based on orders - but prevents them from going to else platforms. And traffic jams based on  choosing of undesirable platforms are part of history.

Offline Ters

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 07:35:57 PM »
I think it was just a small minimal example of the observed behaviour.

Still, my only (I think) use for end-of-choose is at a small station with three platforms. It prevents the choosing from going back out the exit track and round to the third platform that shouldn't be chooseable. (And I hold fast to never using choose signals on anything but freight terminals, and then only for loading platforms shared by the same line.)

Offline ӔO

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2012, 02:04:23 AM »
I think it might be a good idea to come up with a save game demonstrating how to use the signals in simutrans. In fact, I'll attempt to do this myself.

As to the name, "choose" signal, the function isn't so much a "choose" as it is "use any platform you can reach".
Perhaps "choose platform" could become: "select any open platform at station"
and "end of choose" could become: "omit from selectable"
or something to that tune

Offline Carl

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2012, 07:39:28 AM »
I agree with ӔO. I think lots of us have gotten confused by the "end of choose" signal, which doesn't function as you would expect a signal with that name to.

In fairness, some paksets seem to name the signal "Exclude from platform choice", which is more accurate.

Offline Václav

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2012, 07:41:43 AM »
In last game (pak96.comic) I equipped ways around one station with end of choose - to prevent trains to go to wrong platforms - but trains ignore them.

Offline prissi

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2012, 05:22:33 PM »
Choose signals will also not choose too short platforms. But if the target one is too short and available, the convoi will go there (and generate a warning.)

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2012, 06:11:54 PM »
Well the screen shot is just an example. I thought that end-of-choose will protect a platform so that only trains that have it in their schedule can occupy it, but it should not prevent such trains from choosing some other available (free and long enough) platform.

Offline ӔO

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2012, 08:21:09 PM »
Well the screen shot is just an example. I thought that end-of-choose will protect a platform so that only trains that have it in their schedule can occupy it, but it should not prevent such trains from choosing some other available (free and long enough) platform.
Ah, for that, it's best to provide a holding loop in front of the station for that line only, or divide the platforms so that you can sort trains coming into the station to only use one platform each.


Alternatively, if you loop to the back of the station, the platform choose won't be blocked by the end choose signal on the opposite side of the tracks.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2012, 07:35:18 PM »
I was thinking about this stuff longer, and I have an idea maybe more related to waypoint change topic http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=7777. It would be a complete replacement for choose/end-choose signals.
 
I think about introducing alternative waypoints, so that all platforms of the same station that can be used by convoi (line) will be explicitly stated in the schedule. This would provide more flexibility in mapping which lines can use which platforms (loading bays).
It could work either as as special multi-way-point, or so that all allowed platforms will be in the schedule one after another. Pathfinder will search the path to the first platform, and follow the path until the last signal. From there on if path to the first platform cannot be reserved and next waypoint is in the same station, it will try to reserve path to the other platform, and so on, like when searching path on choose signal, but choosing only among platforms from the schedule. And when leaving the station, convoi will automatically skip all remaining waypoints that are in the same station. This would be much more intuitive, and would not affect trains passing through station with choose signals (as there would be no choose signals at all). I just don't know how to do it for road vehicles, i don't know how reservations on roads work.

Offline Ters

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2012, 08:14:17 PM »
Placing alternate waypoints on all the truck stops in a large loading area sounds like tedious work. It would solve some problems, but I don't think it's worth it. As for trains, it's one of the better ideas to the choose signal confusion I've read, especially since it's limiting by default. I'm not sure if it's much easier for beginners.

Offline whoami

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2012, 07:37:04 PM »
I thought that end-of-choose will protect a platform so that only trains that have it in their schedule can occupy it, but it should not prevent such trains from choosing some other available (free and long enough) platform.
It had worked like that in the past, but that was changed. The change does not always work (I have a savegame showing this, if needed), so there may be some bug. But instead of fixing this, I would prefer the part of the earlier behaviour of the EOC where a train with a route through an EOC still could choose another platform, as long a no EOC would be passed.

In general, I like the choose signal (in combination with EOC) very much and use it on all larger train stations, as well as for underground and trams in selected cases.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2012, 08:36:08 PM »
Placing alternate waypoints on all the truck stops in a large loading area sounds like tedious work.
That could be solved in gui -  some special button to add all loading bays that belong to the same station, with the possibility to delete some of them later.

Offline ӔO

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2012, 09:33:25 PM »
Being able to manually add optional platforms, while it sounds nice for experienced players, might be confusing for new players.

How about drag selecting? Something to the tune of: "within this selection box, any available platform".
Caveats would be not being able to poke holes in the box, how to handle badly placed selections (like making a selection on unconnected track along with connected) and how to handle selections that have both platforms and tracks/roads with no platform on them.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2012, 09:32:20 PM »
Being able to manually add optional platforms, while it sounds nice for experienced players, might be confusing for new players.

I think it would not be more confusing than the current need of choose and end-of-choose signals.

Offline ӔO

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Re: End Of Choose
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2012, 12:27:43 AM »
well, the one problem I would have is: how do I differentiate between "additional platforms" I've selected for the stop and new ones in the line when they are both added by clicking the map again? The same action displays similar results, yet the effect is different. A different action for different functions would help ease the learning curve.

I guess alternate waypoints could be added by holding down shift or ctrl and clicking.