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Offline wlindley us

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New Industry Graphics
« on: December 03, 2012, 01:30:41 PM »
Awhile (three years) back we discussed the Pharmaceuticals factory:

...it was (and, I think, still is eventually) intended to have gasworks, which take an input of coal and produce an output of chemicals (albeit in a far lower proportion than coal, since most of it is turned to gas...).  [[And that the]] pharmaceutical factories [[accept the chemicals]]

Being as the current graphics, circa 1920, are anachronistic for 1860 -- poured concrete not being widely used until the twentieth century -- perhaps something more like this?



And would we want to finally update the chain so the 1860 pharmaceuticals factory requires both veg and chemicals, and accordingly add chemicals to the gasworks, now that we have one?

p.s., The Mills images still need snow, which I shall tackle once I nail down exactly which buildings are in it.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 03:27:10 PM by The Hood »

Offline greenling

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Re: Pharmaceuticals factory
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2012, 01:50:10 PM »
Wlindley
You have here a good idea but i don't know who gas works make chemicals.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Pharmaceuticals factory
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2012, 01:57:16 PM »
The Wikipedia article explains how Gasworks created both Coke and Tar products.  Tar was used in some pharmaceuticals. 

Offline greenling

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Re: Pharmaceuticals factory
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2012, 02:27:15 PM »
wlindley
thank you and i got a idea.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Pharmaceuticals factory
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2012, 10:04:40 PM »
Lovely. Wonder if we could have a few more boxes lying around in the yard? You also reminded me the gasworks never made it into standard pak128.Britain...

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Pharmaceuticals factory
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2012, 11:46:48 PM »
This is rather splendid!

Offline The Hood

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Re: Pharmaceuticals factory
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2012, 06:17:14 PM »
Do you have a dat for this as well now you've done snow images?

Offline The Hood

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Re: Pharmaceuticals factory
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2013, 02:49:23 PM »
wlindley, what's the current status on this? I'd love to add it to SVN...

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Pharmaceuticals factory
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2013, 04:00:51 PM »
Ah! I had mislaid this thread.... do let me pick it up again.  Thank you for the reminder.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Pharmaceuticals factory
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2013, 09:50:49 AM »
The 'mills' set of images that I created, is only used by the Ironworks so far.  I am revising the set, correcting pixel errors and adding in hopes ofto permiting these early factories:
  • 1910 car factory
  • 1850 hardware factory
  • 1950 car factory, similar to current graphics but coded with fields
As for the Pharma. factory: is the 1860 gasworks going to provide Chemicals?

Offline The Hood

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Re: Pharmaceuticals factory
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2013, 10:15:44 AM »
1860 gasworks can provide chemicals if it needs to - I feel like a complete industrialist megalomaniac with too much power!

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Pharmaceuticals factory
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2013, 07:56:53 PM »
Just to check - are there any historical precedents for synthetic pharmaceuticals from the 1860s?

However, there is a difficulty here. It is realistic enough for a gasworks to produce chemicals used by the pharmaceutical industry (whether or not as early as the 1860s, the earliest synthetic pharmaceuticals were indeed made from coal tar residues), but if the gasworks is coded in game as a producing factory rather than as a consumer, then it will consume no coal unless somebody is buying its chemicals. In reality, of course, the chemicals were just byproducts that were sold if there was a market for them, and the main function was to produce gas, which was transported by pipe, not vehicle. Gasworks should not stop consuming coal merely because people are not buying the byproducts (which would have been emptied into a river in 1860, I imagine, if nobody wanted them).

This might call for a code change to allow designated industries to consume even when they cannot produce any more. In theory, this should be relatively easy to code, but would require stepping the pakset version to add a new parameter.

Offline The Hood

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2013, 03:24:55 PM »
I'm going to add my work on new industry graphics to this topic, to avoid duplication of work (and rename it as new industry graphics). First up, two new breweries, an early one for the 1750 industry and a modern one for post-war.





Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2013, 04:54:57 PM »
Very nice! Of course, with them being different sizes, they will no longer upgrade to each other in Experimental. Are either of them the same size as the existing 19th century brewery? It might be best not to have too many size differences between industries of the same type in different eras to avoid upgrade problems.

Offline The Hood

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2013, 05:45:20 PM »
I wasn't aware of that. I went smaller on the principle that earlier industries tended to be smaller affairs...

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2013, 05:54:01 PM »
Understandable - perhaps you could put smaller industries in larger grounds for the early ones? The difficulty in upgrading to different sizes is the difficulty in re-siting a multi-tile building.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2013, 07:42:50 PM »
Upgrading industries increasing in size seems reasonable. After all, many breweries which would have been near the centre of towns would have been moved to industrial estates on the outskirts as time went on.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2013, 08:12:24 PM »
The trouble is, there is currently  no code to allow them to move to the outskirts of the same town, or move at all and still be connected to the same suppliers, etc. They can only upgrade in situ or close down and leave a slot in the industry density figures for some other industry to open somewhere else. Indeed, is that not what normally happens - do industries not either upgrade in situ or move a very long way away? Certainly, the Burton-on-Trent brewery has upgraded in situ, has it not?

Offline kierongreen

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2013, 08:24:07 PM »
Experimental has the industry upgrading option, it's up to you to code how to deal with this. Upgrading industries is something I'd be thinking about maybe adding to standard eventually so might think of something with regards to that. Over time industries to generally move to larger premises - there's certain exceptions, but for example coal mines, steel mills, farms, car factories all tend to get larger with time.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2013, 08:31:56 PM »
TheHood's modern brewery could be coded as three separate 1x1 buildings (half of the shed [which would be repeated twice to get what we see above], the tanks, and the "office" building [bottom tile in the above image]). Then define the modern brewery as a 1x2 factory (the office building and the tanks) with at least two "Fields" -- where the fields are the tank tile and the shed tile (perhaps with the tank tile having twice the probability as the shed tile).  That would let it upgrade in place, wouldn't it?

Offline kierongreen

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2013, 08:49:43 PM »
Ah but if it's surrounded by buildings then the fields will never get built.

Offline The Hood

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2013, 08:22:35 AM »
It would seem sensible to me to allow relocating to the outskirts when upgrading if it isn't possible to extend into adjacent squares (even allowing for knocking down citybuildings but not attractions/roads/other industries perhaps?). 

wlindley, I could do you some field versions but I'm worried we'll end up duplicating work. Which industries exactly are you planning on making graphics for and I'll avoid them. I find it much easier to just do everything in blender and then use tilecutter - I've got lots of 3D model parts that can just be moved around then rendered easily now, hence why I'm not going modular with my own creations.

EDIT: And a new modern brickworks (same size as older graphics)

« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 09:18:45 AM by The Hood »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2013, 10:54:20 AM »
The trouble is with code for "relocating to the outskirts" is that it is not at all easy: first of all, we have to have code for knowing what the "outskirts" are, exactly; that is difficult when an industry is in a town, but impossible when it is already in the countryside. Suppose that there is not enough space in the existing "outskirts" of a town; what then? How far out of the centre of the town counts as "outskirts"? Can the town border be extended to include the new industry? If so, how far can it be extended?

There is then the troubling matter of the relocation itself. Goods destined to a factory know that that they are destined for that particular factory by storing the exact position of their destination. If the factory is no longer in that position, the goods will no longer know that they are bound for that particular factory, and will be discarded. This includes all goods shipped by the supplier but not yet picked up, as well as goods en route; yet goods en route count towards the "in transit" figures and will stop more goods being produced by the supplier factory. Further, of course, relocation is as disruptive for players and their transport connexions as closing and reopening elsewhere: existing connexions would need to be severed and closed, and new connexions built.

Overall, there is no advantage in principle to "upgrading" if the factory moves to simply shutting it down and opening a new one; and if one is going that far, there is only a small advantage to shutting it down and opening a new factory of the same type with the same suppliers and consumers as there is to shutting it down finally and letting the industry density system create a new factory of any type in due course, which is the current state of things in any event.

The new brickworks, however, looks excellent.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2013, 11:40:12 AM »
I'll resolve these issues in Standard with an upgrade mechanism in that. If you wanted to merge that into Experimental you'd be welcome to of course, otherwise the responsibility of solving them lies with you.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2013, 12:01:40 PM »
I'll resolve these issues in Standard with an upgrade mechanism in that. If you wanted to merge that into Experimental you'd be welcome to of course, otherwise the responsibility of solving them lies with you.

Ahh, interesting, industry upgrading in Standard; might I enquire how you plan to make it work? If you can find a way of solving these problems in Standard, it would certainly be worthwhile merging such code into Experimental. Might I suggest that you use the same .dat file parameters as used by Experimental to avoid duplication?

Edit: I should add that it seems to me that a number of the components required to do this might well overlap significantly with the components required to achieve multi-tile city buildings, which would also be a worthwhile thing to have in Standard.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2013, 04:42:28 PM »
Quote
Ahh, interesting, industry upgrading in Standard; might I enquire how you plan to make it work?
The Hood has a lot of suggestions in his post. If we're extending city buildings to be more than 1x1 then code for replacing will already be there. Only difficulty will be if road layout, monuments or attraction block factor expansion. Landscape could potentially be an issue for both city and rural factories. In all cases I'm thinking opening a warning that a factor is closing down soon might work? Possibly linking to new factory at same time? The new factory could "open" immediately but have 0 production/consumption until the old factory shut down, or it could slowly transfer over or... well, I think it's a case of everyone chipping in ideas. It all depends on citybuilding code being revamped though, and realistically I think that might not be until after we've had a stable release.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2013, 06:45:14 PM »
The Hood has a lot of suggestions in his post. If we're extending city buildings to be more than 1x1 then code for replacing will already be there. Only difficulty will be if road layout, monuments or attraction block factor expansion. Landscape could potentially be an issue for both city and rural factories. In all cases I'm thinking opening a warning that a factor is closing down soon might work? Possibly linking to new factory at same time? The new factory could "open" immediately but have 0 production/consumption until the old factory shut down, or it could slowly transfer over or... well, I think it's a case of everyone chipping in ideas. It all depends on citybuilding code being revamped though, and realistically I think that might not be until after we've had a stable release.

That's interesting - are you thinking of adding factory closing generally to Standard?

If we are having new factories built, then I think that there are strong reasons to integrate this code with the city building code: I am in favour generally of integrating industries, attractions and city buildings as closely as possible and discriminating as little as possible between them. On that basis, factories should build and upgrade according to the same criteria and using the same systems as city buildings. In situ upgrades would be preferred, with, where appropriate, neighbouring buildings being demolished to make way for the extended factory, in the same way as with expanding city buildings (where there is space). Where there is no space, it is cleaner, I think, simply to close the factory, or leave it in its non-upgraded state (and perhaps close it if and when a new factory of the same type is built elsewhere, once that new factory is served by transport, at least).

Offline kierongreen

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2013, 10:08:36 PM »
Absolutely thinking of linking it in with city building code! Well I think that factory opening/closing should be pakset dependent. For simpler paksets it makes sense to keep industries in the same place. When you start playing a 200 year game in pak128.Britain seeing industries from different eras just seems jarring.

Yes I'd see the old factory closing just wonder whether to give people a bit of warning so as to give them time to reconfigure transport networks. Also, even on larger maps this should not be a regular event. Pakset maintainers should ensure that you'd only get one factory a year or so moving (if that), moving only being done at a major factory upgrade. Minor upgrades and changes in graphics would be the same size, it would only be the larger ones where demolishing nearby buildings and so on would come into the equation.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2013, 10:42:08 PM »
Yes, that all seems to make sense. Have you looked into how factory closing is done in Experimental? That is designed to let it be customisable in the pakset. How regular that it is depends on the era: there will be more factory closures in the 1970s (with fewer replacements built) than in the 1860s, say.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2013, 10:46:25 PM »
I've not looked into things deeply yet. Don't worry, I will look at experimental (as I did for station capacities, infact for that I just copied and pasted code into standard more or less apart from changes asked for by prissi). As I said, there's other smaller things I want to get done, and double heights finished. Then I can look at city code and work from there. I'm not sure about closing factories with no replacement. Will have to think about that.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2013, 11:02:47 PM »
Having factories close with no replacement simulates both industrial decline and shifts from one sort of industry to another. The economy could get very distorted if things were otherwise in a longer game.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2013, 11:11:50 PM »
Modelling industrial decline would mean reducing factory outputs steadily after a certain year. Infact, that's how you could arrange for replacements - once a factory can no longer run effectively (with a bit of randomness) it is replaced by a more modern one, or just closed. There could be flexibility in dat files to deal with that also. The decline could simulate newer factories undercutting the older ones making production less profitable.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2013, 11:21:16 PM »
How would effectiveness be measured?

Bear in mind that Experimental already has code for closing down factories.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2013, 02:22:32 PM »
Cross that bridge when we come to it.

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Re: New Industry Graphics
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2013, 04:02:44 PM »
Hmm - surely we need to know what we mean by "effectiveness" to know whether a feature that closes factories down when that effectiveness crosses a threshold is worthwhile implementing in the first place?