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Offline Václav

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Service life
« on: December 15, 2012, 04:04:50 PM »
Currently service life of all vehicles is unlimited - or a bit exactly: its service life is determined only by speed and capacity. When new (better) vehicle appears in game, old vehicles are often being replaced with those new ones. And of course, old vehicles are being replaced often also in case when time of retire come.

But when in game appear vehicle without retire year, then they have unlimited service life - because no player will replace it with new one if it is not needed for some reason.

Surely this status may be good in some paksets with balancing for difficult game (difficult earning of money) - but it is a bit unlogic. That vehicles may be in service forever.

If any vehicle has not retire year, then it is accepted like it is produced forever - but it should not mean that vehicle can be in service forever.

Offline greenling

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Re: Service life
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2012, 04:27:52 PM »
VaclavMacurek
For your question to find a good solution it a very heavy job. :::) ::-\
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 04:34:12 PM by greenling »

Offline Fabio

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Re: Service life
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2012, 05:44:39 PM »
On a side note, I don't like present obsolescence.
A vehicle bought 1 month before retirement will be considered obsolescent after one month.
I would prefer an obsolescence date different from retire date, so that a retired vehicle can still run a few years without turning its line blue.

Service life is an interesting concept, but lacking an automated replacement it would require a lot of micro management.

Maybe vehicles could be considered old and obsolescent after their resale value reaches down to zero. At that point that could turn the line blue and have higher running costs or higher fixed monthly maintenance.

Offline Ters

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Re: Service life
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2012, 05:45:39 PM »
Though it feels wrong to still have railroad cars that are about 150 years old, I don't want to have the vehicle replacement hassle that Transport Tycoon had. I never player a game through to the end, because it ended up being about nothing more than replacing vehicles. And I have a lot more vehicles in Simutrans than I could ever have in Transport Tycoon. (Not being able to buy new vehicles was also a reason for not playing more in Transport Tycoon.)

Having running costs rise with age could be a possibility, but for the most part, using old vehicles already has a penalty in the form of reduced income due to drop in speed bonus.

Offline greenling

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Re: Service life
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2012, 06:17:11 PM »
Here in germany runs three electric locomotion they be build between the year 1940 until 1945.
Here It the Link to Engine over there i Talk: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_E_94

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Service life
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2012, 06:49:53 PM »
Is this too simple?

A vehicle is considered obsolete if:

Current:   the current date is past the retirement date of its prototype.

Suggested: ( Current_Date - Vehicle_Build_Date ) > ( prototype_retirement_date - prototype_introduction_date)

In other words, if the vehicle were in production for 10 years, then any vehicle of that type would have a ten year productive life.   Generally, reliable vehicles were produced for a long time, and unreliable vehicles were only produced for  a short time -- this would reflect that.

Offline greenling

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Re: Service life
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2012, 06:59:46 PM »
Yes wlindley.
The Talent 2 it a Problem vehicle.
Some vehicles from the Talent 2 with buildfaults goes this year to the waste.

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Service life
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2012, 07:05:09 PM »
I would prefer an obsolescence date different from retire date, so that a retired vehicle can still run a few years without turning its line blue.
That's how things should happen:

1) Retirement of a vehicle is a decision taken by the factory on its own discretion, maybe because they noticed the sales of said vehicle is no longer making profits. ;)

2) The obsolescence a vehicle might happen when/due to:
- it yields (?) less than 50% of the newest similar vehicle.
- 1 year after the retirement date.
- depreciation: 10%/year, until resale value becomes zero.

Offline prissi

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Re: Service life
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2012, 08:05:31 PM »
Obsolete in blue means that the vehcile is calculated to yield not neccessarily a positive income due to changes in speed bonus. At least pak64 is calculated in such a way.

Offline Ters

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Re: Service life
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 08:59:05 PM »
Obsolete in blue means that the vehcile is calculated to yield not neccessarily a positive income due to changes in speed bonus. At least pak64 is calculated in such a way.

That must be how it should be, not how it is. I've got lots of convoys unable to give a positive income due to changes in speed bonus that isn't blue.

The obsoletion date in Simutrans is, for pak64 at least, when the vehicle was retired in real life. Especially for railroad vehicles and trams. Road vehicles and ships seem more generic, rather than directly matching a real vehicle, while airplanes are a little of both. Between a vehicle type's introduction date and obsoletion date, it is possible to buy brand new vehicles of the type. Simutrans lacks the concept of when a vehicle type actually was being produced.

Offline prissi

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Re: Service life
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2012, 10:23:18 PM »
My excel sheets for pak64 also try that a reasonable convois of not retired vehicles has a positive income. Afterwards especially earlier vehicles may not generate income at all (see cars.xls) The retire dates are just used from the "real" objects, if there is one.

Offline Václav

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Re: Service life
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 10:59:57 PM »
In other words, if the vehicle were in production for 10 years, then any vehicle of that type would have a ten year productive life.   Generally, reliable vehicles were produced for a long time, and unreliable vehicles were only produced for  a short time -- this would reflect that.
Yes. But this is one part.

I wrote about something a little different: each vehicle (reliable or not) are constructed with some planned service life (for example 10 year). Vehicle prooves its reliability and so its production continues - for example fifty years. But I don't know about any train or locomotive that would be produced for a such long time. Czech tram car Tatra T3 (included into Pak128) was produced for more than thirty years (almost fourty).

But in these thirty years, if I take 10 years of service life, all vehicles (while they are bought at the same time, in the beginning of production) should be replaced three times. And surely they will be in service for some other years - because they are very reliable.

Yes wlindley.
The Talent 2 it a Problem vehicle.
Some vehicles from the Talent 2 with buildfaults goes this year to the waste.
Do you think EMU BR 442?
It looks interesting.

I think that every age and most countries have some vehicles that are very reliable - and on other side also vehicles that are very unreliable. But also those unreliable still may be in service - when they are matter of recent times. Yes, those vehicles became obsolete early ... for their production ended very soon ... but they are still in service, because they service life still goes. But then, they will be sold and scrapped.

On a side note, I don't like present obsolescence.
A vehicle bought 1 month before retirement will be considered obsolescent after one month.
I would prefer an obsolescence date different from retire date, so that a retired vehicle can still run a few years without turning its line blue.
Similar to my comment to wlindley.

Quote
Service life is an interesting concept, but lacking an automated replacement it would require a lot of micro management.
May be after some game years, when player has a lot of vehicles. I think that it would be sufficient when there will be message for player that vehicle XYZ is getting old (after half of service life) - and is getting very old (one quarter before end).

Offline greenling

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Re: Service life
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2012, 11:54:38 PM »
VaclavMacurek
At the EMU BR 442 have the people from bombadier get many trouble to get the vehicle to work.

Offline Ters

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Re: Service life
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2012, 09:46:16 AM »
I think that it would be sufficient when there will be message for player that vehicle XYZ is getting old (after half of service life) - and is getting very old (one quarter before end).

And if you don't have time, or want to, act upon these messages, then what?

Offline Zeno

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Re: Service life
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2012, 10:05:17 AM »
And if you don't have time, or want to, act upon these messages, then what?
Maybe charging 10% extra running cost per year exceeded would convince the player to put hands on the matter ;)
Vehicle would be very old, and would need repairing engine, brakes and such things very often, you know...

Btw, let me say that lifetime and start/retirement date have nothing to do at all, as explained before in this thread. Just an example to put all of it together: there have been trains running in Spain (and I guess all-over-the-world too) that were produced only during a few years (5 to 10), and have been running without any problem for more than 40 years. I think that the only way to set up a non-random vehicle lifetime would be by adding a new parameter to the DAT (yet another one, but of course we could use production years as default if no parameter present); mainly because trains, buses and airplanes have different lifetimes no matter the production dates they've had.

Offline prissi

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Re: Service life
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2012, 11:31:55 AM »
I am well aware that production span and retirement are different. Like the Br38, which was produced form 1980 to 1923 but served until 1977. Or the Berlin S-Bahn produced 1928 until 1936 and run until 2002. Such a difference is in experimental. However results in much less  choice between engines since much less are available (especially like wartimes and so on). It might cater to more "reality" but for the causual gamer (who also switch off timeline for more choices) this may not appeal.

Adding it the same ways than experimental (i.e. show only production vehicles in depot as a pak setting) is certainly an option, since choice available depends on the pak. Thus put an entry like "production_stop" or whatever it is name in experimental into the dat will be a good preparation, since those will be ignored but makeobj at worst.

The finacial force to replace stuff usually can be ignored for almost any vehciles running in later games, since the other still will earn enough. It is up to the player to replace them with better convois or not. The retire date were introduced only for reason of having also the time when vehicle work included into the game back then.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Service life
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2012, 11:35:03 AM »
After a vehicle resale price gets to zero, it could make you pay a lump sum equal to 1/3 or 1/4 of original purchase price and this amount would be added to resale price (so that this can go on forever).
It could be considered a major refurbishment and it wouldn't require any mandatory action from the player (but selling before it could be optionally useful) and it would be neutral on net worth (you pay the refurbishment but increase your assets).

There are in real life trains, trams, ships, and planes pushed well over their intended lifespan with periodic revamping

Offline prissi

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Re: Service life
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2012, 11:42:20 AM »
Most trains need major overhaul every four years or 100000 km driven. And a truck nowadays has reached zero value taxwise after three to five years. A hourse never survive 25 years service: But as I said, I do not see the financial subtraction adding/changing gameplay in any way. Either you are financially sound, then you will suvive it, or you ran already a loss and it was anyway just a matter of time to go bankrupt.

I would see this feature rather to reduce cluttering the depot.

Offline Václav

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Re: Service life
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2012, 11:55:17 AM »
There are in real life trains, trams, ships, and planes pushed well over their intended lifespan with periodic revamping
In this way most of T3 trams are still in service - because they got new traction equipment (mostly new electromotors). Also many train passenger cars and locomotives got chance to be in service for further years with reconstruction (or revamping). For example these locomotives

are revamped - and some sold into Italy.

But as I said, I do not see the financial subtraction adding/changing gameplay in any way.

I would see this feature rather to reduce cluttering the depot.
As I wrote, I know that in some paksets this extension may be very problematic. So, for this, this extension may be disabled - like that obsolete vehicles cannot be bought.

Offline Ters

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Re: Service life
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2012, 01:29:41 PM »
I'm a bit concerned about the amount of options, because it leads to more possible configurations that must be considered when doing support, changes, balancing and debugging.

Offline Václav

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Re: Service life
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2012, 01:45:26 PM »
I'm a bit concerned about the amount of options, because it leads to more possible configurations that must be considered when doing support, changes, balancing and debugging.
why balancing? balancing is pakset dependent - but else you are right

Offline Ters

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Re: Service life
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2012, 02:39:21 PM »
Because pak sets depend on the game. If there are changes to the game, the pak sets must follow.

Offline greenling

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Re: Service life
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2012, 02:43:14 PM »
Hello All
Please look on those site here can you view what for price for an old vehicle you must pay:
http://www.man-topused.com/de/?seite=start&init=1

Offline Iluvalar

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Re: Service life
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2012, 04:05:57 PM »
Hello all, I'm making a pakset with a planned speedbonus drop. The balance will also be tightly calculated from scratch. You will have no choice but to constantly upgrade to the next generation or bankrupt.


I'm aware it's not like in real life, but from a balanced game point of vue, all the necessary parts are already in the game to simulate obsolescence better. It's just a matter of building a pak with that in mind.

Offline el_slapper

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Re: Service life
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2012, 12:46:36 PM »
IIRC in old Transport Tycoon, maintenance costs went up with engine wear. I even made up a calculation to optimize the time an engine should be used before being scrapped, for minimizing costs(that was something like 10 to 15 years).

Offline Václav

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Re: Service life
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2012, 04:29:46 PM »
... and of course, at least it would be good to call how long any vehicle is in service. In months. It could be written in list of vehicles. There would be order option - by service age (or something like that).

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Service life
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2012, 04:33:27 PM »
I should note that a method to simulate the dynamic to which Vaclav Macurek referred in his original post has been for some time in a queue of features waiting to be implemented in Experimental - see here for a record of that queue.

Offline Václav

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Re: Service life
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2012, 05:23:46 PM »
James, thanks for this. I did not know about it - because it is not in capabilities to know everything what was requested - mostly if Experimental is not my main interest.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Service life
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2012, 06:25:06 PM »
A side request would be to implement a way to give orders to groups of multiple vehicles selected from the vehicle list.

Offline Václav

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Re: Service life
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2012, 07:48:49 PM »
Probably you think this my idea
... and of course, at least it would be good to call how long any vehicle is in service. In months. It could be written in list of vehicles. There would be order option - by service age (or something like that).

but else I would like to know what orders you had in mind when you wrote
A side request would be to implement a way to give orders to groups of multiple vehicles selected from the vehicle list.

Offline Ters

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Re: Service life
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2012, 12:01:35 AM »
The vehicle list actually lists convoys, not individual vehicles. Since a convoy may contain several vehicles of different ages, how should that work? Should it list age of oldest vehicle? Newest? Average?

Offline Václav

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Re: Service life
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2012, 06:30:39 AM »
... Average for ordering of list is a nonsense. You can change order of lists only between two end values. And it is pure logic of mathematics and also programming - in C++ or PHP - or else languages.

And of course, but it is a bit off-topic, currently you can assign to line only vehicles assembled from - truck and trailer or tractor and trailer; or locomotive and waggons or cars; or towing or pusher boat and freight boats - or standalone vehicles - but not real convoys. All vehicles of one line can create convoy when they are moving at the same time at the same place (it means for example at the same time through the same street of city).  So, in depot dialogue or in line management dialogue should be vehicle(s) instead of convoy(s).

Offline VS

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Re: Service life
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2012, 10:58:23 AM »
Should it list age of oldest vehicle?
... Average for ordering of list is a nonsense.
List as a verb (to list) ;)

Offline Ters

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Re: Service life
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2012, 02:24:59 PM »
... Average for ordering of list is a nonsense. You can change order of lists only between two end values. And it is pure logic of mathematics and also programming - in C++ or PHP - or else languages.

If that's a reply to me, I don't get what you mean. A convoy with an average age of 12 can certainly be ordered relative to a convoy with an average age of 10.

And of course, but it is a bit off-topic, currently you can assign to line only vehicles assembled from - truck and trailer or tractor and trailer; or locomotive and waggons or cars; or towing or pusher boat and freight boats - or standalone vehicles - but not real convoys. All vehicles of one line can create convoy when they are moving at the same time at the same place (it means for example at the same time through the same street of city).  So, in depot dialogue or in line management dialogue should be vehicle(s) instead of convoy(s).

My use of the word convoy comes from Simutrans' use of it. Internally, a combination of vehicles into something that can be given a schedule and move around, is called convoi, which might more properly translated into English as consist.