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Simutrans vs. OpenTTD

Started by prissi, January 11, 2013, 10:54:26 PM

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prissi

is currently discussed in the TTD forum: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=63909 Just to mention if some simutrans supported want to contribute constructively there too.

VS

#1
I had a short and brutal list, but then thought that it's just going to be another simu-diss-hread, and decided to stay out of that.

edit: Oh, it's a license war. Well...

My projects... Tools for messing with Simutrans graphics. Graphic archive - templates and some other stuff for painters. Development logs for most recent information on what is going on. And of course pak128!

mEGa

I don't understood why they discuss about free or not free status of Simutrans in their topic.
Current projects in progress : improvements of few designed french paks

Fabio

I never really understood the free-as-in-free-speech-software Taliban attitude.
If the guy doesn't want to play Simutrans only because of its license I would say better for us!
Just like some no-global occupy-like leftwingers over here refusing to drink Coca Cola or eating at MacDonald's just because they're American.

The Hood

Here's one that rarely gets mentioned in any of these debates - Simutrans forum is much friendlier than TTD forum :)

Ters

Quote from: Fabio on January 12, 2013, 10:36:19 AM
I never really understood the free-as-in-free-speech-software Taliban attitude.
If the guy doesn't want to play Simutrans only because of its license I would say better for us!
Just like some no-global occupy-like leftwingers over here refusing to drink Coca Cola or eating at MacDonald's just because they're American.

I actually find Simutrans' license more left-ish than GPL, as it appears more restrictive against what could be called capitalistic exploitation. Which seems supported by the fact that most companies I know of making money of open source, use GPL for their software.

Vonjo

May be it will be fun if Simutrans and Openttd can communicate each other, where both games can exchange passengers/goods using special station/airport. There can be factories with incomplete chain, which can be completed by playing the other games. This should be easier than Simutrans to Simutrans, because passenger in openttd doesnt have destination and factory have no contract. :)
---
As with license, even public domain is not perfectly free.

Bear789

I started with OTTD a lot of time ago and then moved to Simutrans because of the passengers and goods destinations feature, and I wont' go back. That's the most important thing to me. Also, the underground mode is great, but that was added way after I started playing Simutrans so it wasn't a decisive point when I arrived here.
I must say that I liked better how diagonals were handled in OTTD, but that's a minor issue.

Ters

That all rails entering a tile are connected in every possible way is perhaps the only aspect in which I feel Simutrans is inferior to Transport Tycoon.

The Hood

Quote from: Ters on January 12, 2013, 11:43:02 AM
That all rails entering a tile are connected in every possible way is perhaps the only aspect in which I feel Simutrans is inferior to Transport Tycoon.

Related to this, diagonal double tracks take twice as much space as a result.

I'd also like to see trams coded separately (i.e. like a bus, and not needing signals like rails) so we could fit two tram tracks on a single wide road tile - this would make 2-way tram lines much easier to build in cities game.

Fabio

Actually I was not trying to politicize one license or another.
What I can't stand is ideology and extremism.

Indeed our community is friendlier, I don't know if it is because it's smaller or because we (mods and admins) managed effectively to curb this kind of arguments and to compose most of conflicts.

VS

One area where OpenTTD wins over Simutrans easily is more control over graphics. Random cargos, gradual loading, vehicle variations, detecting tile position and how it relates to surroundings, multi-tile station parts... Some of that would be nice to have.

My projects... Tools for messing with Simutrans graphics. Graphic archive - templates and some other stuff for painters. Development logs for most recent information on what is going on. And of course pak128!

prissi

However, it comes at the price that there are more than 3 times grphics which never were made into addons, because those complex descriptions of vehicles and houses.

isidoro

All those discussions about licenses bore me a lot.  I'm a big fan of Stallman, though: he was able to fight against all that unfair system of licenses with just their very weapons: Chapeau!

It is very funny that you can buy a quite expensive piece of software "AS IS".  The company assumes no responsibility if it is badly designed and you can do nearly nothing with it!  Change the word software by refrigerator or a pound of tomatoes and you'll see what I mean.

Talking about OpenTTD and Simutrans, I think that OpenTTD is a very good introduction to play ST.  I did it that way.  Probably I would have not started playing ST had I not played OpenTTD before.  It wouldn't stand a chance: I would have closed ST after 1 minute of quick review...

Some time ago, I tried to test back OpenTTD but I didn't like it.  It was very, very simple to my eyes in its plain vanilla version.  When I tried to add all the optional features, it was like a I want but I can't...  I was trying to get a ST out of a OpenTTD!  Besides, I didn't quite succeed...  Why go for the clone if I can have the original?   ;)

So the main point stated for OpenTTD in that thread is also its main weakness.


Ters

Quote from: isidoro on January 13, 2013, 02:09:41 AM
It is very funny that you can buy a quite expensive piece of software "AS IS".  The company assumes no responsibility if it is badly designed and you can do nearly nothing with it!

Such clauses are unfortunately a must in USA where someone selling coffee apparently have been sued because a customer got burned on it. That's not even a fault in the product! How would anyone dare develop software for anything but their own personal use without such a clause?

Isaac Eiland-Hall

Actually, the "hot coffee" case regarding McDonald's - I thought for a long time it was stupid, but I did some research after someone told me it wasn't - to make a long story short, McD's sold their coffee dangerously hot and they'd been warned time and time again... it was actually a legitimate case.

Ters

So now every hot drinks seller put "Caution! Contents hot!" on their cups so that they can sell dangerously hot coffee without risking being sued?

Isaac Eiland-Hall

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald%27s_Hot_Coffee_lawsuit

1. She tried to settle for her actual damages, but McD's refused.

2. There was already a warning on the cup.

3. McDonald's lowered the temperature of their coffee.

But please read more about the case and perhaps you might change your perception of it. Or perhaps not, but I did.

Ters

Quote from: Isaac.Eiland-Hall on January 13, 2013, 11:12:57 AM
2. There was already a warning on the cup.

If so, then that's not a relevant case. I'm interested in why they it was deemed necessary to put temperature warnings on coffee cups in the first place. There is obviously some fear against being held responsible that lies behind this and the "as is" clause in licenses. What triggered that fear? What makes it spread?

Sarlock

A warning in itself is not necessarily a way to avoid a lawsuit.  It depends on the product and its potential for harm and the attempts by the seller to make the product safe for the general consumer.  If the coffee is so hot that it can cause a serious burn/scalding then a warning may not be sufficient.  There is a responsibility on the part of the seller to not make the product as dangerous in the first place.
As always, it has to be taken on a case by case basis, but the bottom line is that a disclaimer is not an automatic abrogation of liability.
Current projects: Pak128 Trees, blender graphics

IgorEliezer

#20
Quote from: Sarlock on January 13, 2013, 08:31:08 PM
A warning in itself is not necessarily a way to avoid a lawsuit.
Yep. Say, we have a coal mining industry. It's a dangerous job, we know it. If you get a job in there, you should know that it will be a dangerous and insalubrious job, but it does not mean that this fact could be used as excuse so that the company lowers their safety measures, such as, leaving explosives open-air, not pumping water out, not using reinforced structures... but hey! it's a dangerous and insalubrious job, people know it and should deal with it "AS IS". As a company, we must provide the minimum safety so that employees would mind only on their own activities and on how to do it as safe as possible, individually.

It is unfair to force people to have control over or mind on things that are beyond their capacity, role or knowledge, i.e., I don't need to use a thermometer if I want to drink my coffee safely. ;)

rainer

Quote from: Fabio on January 12, 2013, 10:36:19 AM
I never really understood the free-as-in-free-speech-software Taliban attitude.
(...)

I am not pursuaded that the term "Taliban" is useful here. I never heard of people
taking care for license issues having killed anyone for using the "wrong" license.
Licenses are collections of legal definitions, rules, etc. I can't see any religios
points in them.

The license part of the OpenTTD thread consists mostly on misunderstandings.

Quote from Dwachs:
"So simutrans is NON-FREE because you cannot turn it into something commercial?"

Dwachs, with highest respect: "free vs non-free" and "commercial vs non-commercial"
are two seperated fields. There is non-commercial non-free software and there is
commercial Free Software - and the other way round.

"One Guest", who is arguing in that thread, has a quite strict attitude, which I won't
sign. Obviuosly, he is following the very strict line of FSF. They deny to accept Artistic
License _V1_ as "free", for it tries to restrict "commercial use". BTW: I never heared of
just one case where commercial use _was_ effectively forbidden, based on AL1. Yes,
some clauses are really weak und vague. FSF doesn't like that, OSI and Debian don't
see a problem and accept that License. I do tend to follow Debian here.

IIRC, these vague "anti-commercial clauses" were the reason for a lot of communication
between FSF and AL authors. The result was 2.0, which is far more clear, and
accepted as "free" even by FSF. BTW: Even the Perl guys are shipping their stuff
under both, AL and GLP. I am sure, they now why. : - )

For me there is no doubt: Simutrans is surely free software. Whenever someone will
start to sell it, I am highly interested to watch the negotiations at court. For now, I
bet: There will be no way to stop him.

Ah, well... Back to topic. I tried OpenTTD some years ago and came back to Simutrans
at the same evening, happily! : - )

Praises for all developers!

Fabio

Well, true that Talibans kill for their religion and open source followers don't. Sorry if it offended anyone.

Yet I see some fanatism and religious integralism in people saying they won't even download a piece of software if it's not free software. Came on! 

rainer

Quote from: Fabio on January 13, 2013, 10:09:42 PM
Well, true that Talibans kill for their religion and open source followers don't. Sorry if it offended anyone.

Accepted. I hope you see more differences between Taliban and people like me. : - )
(Ok, I admit, my beard is far too long actually...)

Quote from: Fabio on January 13, 2013, 10:09:42 PM
Yet I see some fanatism and religious integralism in people saying they won't even download a piece of software if it's not free software. Came on!

Well... I beg to differ. On a first glance I would like to say that such a person is
consequent, nothing more and nothing less. You might name that fanatic, I don't.
Surely it is not religious. I do not see any reason not to respect that.

I hope we agree when it comes to _behaviour_. If people are treating other people
in a fanatic way, when they are preaching like fundamental priests, _then_ the
**** hits the fan. That's something I do not like.

Back to topic: "One Guest's" behaviour in the OpenTTD thread is not nice.
Breaking everything done to the pure facts, he is right. In his way of communicating
I see hm... "potential for optimisation".

isidoro

About the "AS IS" topic, I think it is a question of time that we see software developers follow the same path of architects, physicians, ...  since nowadays bad Computer Science can cause as much havoc as a badly build bridge, for instance.

About the taliban question, I understand Fabio's point of view, although perhaps it is somewhat expressed in the language of the south.  It is evident that Taliban behavior and a fanatic of free software (remember that the English word fan is probably a short version of fanatic) are not comparable.

But, it is not sometimes the enthusiasm of free software advocates, but their pontification about the issue, a sort of moral superiority when talking about it, that some other people don't like.  With the passing years, the very one thing I have come to believe is that there are no absolute truths, that there is no rule without exceptions.

Incidentally, as I think Fabio pointed out, there is a similar behavior with some left-wing activism.  And, odd enough, it is really common that some of those young extreme left-wing activists, with the pass of time, turn into extreme right-wing activists, with the same or more devotion, when reaching old age, specially if they are lucky to grow some money...

In the case of "Guest One", something strange is suspected when he opens a thread asking about differences between OpenTTD and ST, and a couple of posts below, he says he won't ever play ST due to its license.  I understand Dwachs' reaction: how come that the only issue above all things in the topic is the license?

By the way, I am a free software advocate and a left-wing person, but I am not 100% sure of any.  None of the machines that I use has Windows installed and I don't miss it, for sure, much on the contrary.  But I wouldn't dare look from above at people that are happy with it.  Live and let live...


Sarlock

Well said.  It does seem to me strange to have such a violent reaction to one set of "free" rules to stop someone from wanting to play the game in the first place.  But I guess if it's that important to them, it's their free choice... I can't say I'd ever make a decision to play or not play a game based on the terms of its license.  There is more than one definition of "free".  I prefer the one that makes it free to purchase and play but does not make all of the intellectual property freely available for commercial uses.  I certainly wouldn't want a for-pay game to be using my trees, for instance :) but if a free game like OpenTTD wanted to use them I'd be more than happy to offer them.
Current projects: Pak128 Trees, blender graphics

Ters

Quote from: isidoro on January 14, 2013, 12:48:20 AM
About the "AS IS" topic, I think it is a question of time that we see software developers follow the same path of architects, physicians, ...  since nowadays bad Computer Science can cause as much havoc as a badly build bridge, for instance.
Actually, we used to follow that path, but realized it was impossible. Most modern computer programs are so complex that there is no way that they lack bugs. They will eventually come crashing down given the "right" input. We still try to do our best to avoid faults, but know that our work is flawed in some way, so there are "as is" clauses, error reporting facilities and patch releases. The rest of the world seems to have a harder time understanding this.

Quote from: Sarlock on January 14, 2013, 01:08:24 AM
I certainly wouldn't want a for-pay game to be using my trees, for instance :) but if a free game like OpenTTD wanted to use them I'd be more than happy to offer them.
That's a contradiction, because OpenTTD could become a for-pay game in an instant. It might already be for all I know.

Dwachs

Quote from: rainer on January 13, 2013, 09:34:37 PM
The license part of the OpenTTD thread consists mostly on misunderstandings.

Quote from Dwachs:
"So simutrans is NON-FREE because you cannot turn it into something commercial?"

Dwachs, with highest respect: "free vs non-free" and "commercial vs non-commercial"
are two seperated fields. There is non-commercial non-free software and there is
commercial Free Software - and the other way round.
This guy asked for differences between Ottd and Simutrans because 'simutrans is non-free' in his eyes, and because of that he cannot play such a toxic, non-free game. He claims that Simutrans is non-free because he does not have the freedom to turn simutrans into a commercial product. Which is ridiculous in my point of view.
Parsley, sage, rosemary, and maggikraut.

VS

As I see it, the outrageous part was dragging others into a discussion - only to drive home the unrelated point about license. Troll has been well fed :)

My projects... Tools for messing with Simutrans graphics. Graphic archive - templates and some other stuff for painters. Development logs for most recent information on what is going on. And of course pak128!

prissi

When it cames to license, then OpenTTD still has the "problem" that it is based on a decompiler as the first version of the source. Just the very first version of the code still had algorithmic label like a000456 and such. Insofar this advocate is as wrong as he could be. I would rather like to compare those two game to see were each could profit. But instead very few people lay both (I know only three in three fora). Each supoorted of the games seems also quite fanatic about their favorite toy ;)

rainer

Quote from: isidoro on January 14, 2013, 12:48:20 AM
By the way, I am a free software advocate and a left-wing person, but I am not 100% sure of any.  None of the machines that I use has Windows installed and I don't miss it, for sure, much on the contrary.  But I wouldn't dare look from above at people that are happy with it.  Live and let live...

Beside of the "left-wing" thing, I would to sign that paragraph wholeheartedly.
The only remaining problem is that some "market leaders" on the proprietary side never understood
the "let live" part. :- (

Quote from: Dwachs on January 14, 2013, 07:41:06 AM
He claims that Simutrans is non-free because he does not have the freedom to turn simutrans into a commercial product.

Breaking it down the facts, this is true, somehow. Forbidding "commercial use" is contradicting to the
"Freedom No 0" - the freedom to use the program for every porpose. AL1 tries to do exactly that.

Quote from: Dwachs on January 14, 2013, 07:41:06 AM
Which is ridiculous in my point of view.

His behaviour is ridiculous, yes. But he has a point here.

Sarlock

Quote from: VS on January 14, 2013, 08:03:29 AM
As I see it, the outrageous part was dragging others into a discussion - only to drive home the unrelated point about license. Troll has been well fed :)

Absolutely!  Well fed indeed.

They are both great games that have had an immense amount of effort put in to each.  I personally prefer Simutrans because I love the complexity, but each game has its merits and worth.
Current projects: Pak128 Trees, blender graphics

Ters

Quote from: prissi on January 14, 2013, 09:49:37 AM
When it cames to license, then OpenTTD still has the "problem" that it is based on a decompiler as the first version of the source. Just the very first version of the code still had algorithmic label like a000456 and such. Insofar this advocate is as wrong as he could be. I would rather like to compare those two game to see were each could profit. But instead very few people lay both (I know only three in three fora). Each supoorted of the games seems also quite fanatic about their favorite toy ;)

So Simutrans is almost free, while OTTD claims to be free, but is possibly illegal? If so, distros accepting the latter but not the former have a very shallow perception of the world.

VS

That is not entirely certain... however, getting a 1:1 game sounds somewhat unlikely ;)

My projects... Tools for messing with Simutrans graphics. Graphic archive - templates and some other stuff for painters. Development logs for most recent information on what is going on. And of course pak128!

Lmallet

Quote from: Ters on January 14, 2013, 03:40:44 PM
So Simutrans is almost free, while OTTD claims to be free, but is possibly illegal? If so, distros accepting the latter but not the former have a very shallow perception of the world.
I was wondering the same thing.  For a long time you required files for the original graphics/sound files from TTD to make OpenTTD work.  I know that now they made OpenGFX/SFX, but I wonder about the legality.

Let's say I make a new OS, called OpenWindows, that has the same look-and-feel as MS-Windows, but had more features.  How long would it take MS to show up at my door?  :)  I know TTD is pretty much abandonware, but Microprose (or its current owner) might still be able to exercise copyright.