Industry and town/city distribution with Pak128 (ie. map generation issues)

[Creat]

Hello everyone!

I've been wanting to get back into Simutrans after years so I finally did just that. After a somewhat rough start I settled on Pak128 and started a few new games in search of a Map I liked. I couldn't find one. I eventually just started with one that was less bad, but rather quickly decided I wanted a 'proper' map.

Simutrans Version 112.1, r6212; Pak128 version 2.2.0 (I hope/assume that's all right?)

The map itself (terrain) isn't the problem, but the fact that the entire industry of the map (no matter how many I've set to spawn) is concentrated in one area. I've attached two screenshots of the minimap as examples (in that case both use the same terrain, but I usually re-generated a completely new map, this was just cause I liked it and wanted to play it). It isn't always the top right, sometimes it's like the upper or lower half (or third), sometimes just a cluster somewhere (as in the second screenshot), but mostly it seems roughly rectangular. This whole layout also seems to make the map size completely irrelevant as I'd only be playing on a fraction of it. I've searched the config files but didn't find anything that seemed it would force this behavior (or correct it).
The second part of that issue is, that in most cases it's a huge number of one or two primary industry (like 'Tree plantation' and maybe 'coal mine') and only one or two down the industry chain, is that intentional or can I tune that somehow? Again, I couldn't find anything about industry selection in the config files... I'd like to have less monotony and more industry chains, if possible.

Additionally I've searched for some parameters to more tightly control town sizes. The first screenshot is a pretty good example again: there is one relatively big city and the rest is more or less small to tiny. It isn't as extreme as some maps I've ended up with, but illustrates my problem. I've had maps that had exactly one big city (with something like 25-40k citizens) and all the rest was under a thousand. I want to build up the area, not start with New York City right in the middle... I've only seen the "Median Citizens per City" option, but nothing to control the variation that can occur.

Thanks for any help!
Creat

[An_dz]

I'm having the same feeling. That industry concentration is really annoying.

[IgorEliezer]

It's not because the only cities that are growing in the map are there?

[prissi]

You can play around with the parameter in simuconf.tab, or just simply place some base suppliers by hand and then increase factory density. However, factories too far apart means that you will not be able to start the game because you might get bankrupt before a successful connection can be made. Also some factories require certain climate (like coal mines) and are thus clustered in mountains.

Still since this often remarked, the default radius can be now given in the simuconf tab either absolute or in percentage of map size.

[Creat]

I know it's been a while since my initial request, but I did want to at least follow up with my results. Unfortunately I couldn't find any satisfactory way to get useful maps (with settings I liked). I also played around with the (single) option in the simuconf.tab without any success. I even tried playing around with ind_* variables in the cityrules.tab, again without (much) success. If someone can give me a set of settings that avoid this clustering (industry mostly in one place on the map) and industry concentration (having a lot of the same type of industry) I'd be grateful! It really is a shame, I'd very much like to play Simutrans, but after spending literally hours trying to generate just a few usable maps, I've basically given up on the game.

I really hope the map generator will be improved in the near future. At the moment there is little point if I only get maps with insane industry distributions that just a few sanity checks in the map generator could prevent. Typical examples include "The user requested 40 industries, maybe we shouldn't have 35 tree plantations" or "We have placed half the requested industries, but they are all concentrated in only 15% of the map area".
Generally some more specific options would be nice, like being able to request certain types of industries or at least industry chains. I really like the electric power system (it's among the few key differences to OpenTTD), but since power plants aren't treated differently (even though they are) I constantly have to regenerate the map every time there is no power plant or it is placed somewhere completely useless. Sometimes the map ends up having one huge city and the rest are just villages at best. There are no ways to specify these wishes, not even in configuration files as far as I can tell.

[Combuijs]

You are of course aware that you can turn the creation of new industries off, and that you can place your own industries at will, either per chain or per factory. Just switch to public player.

In the Simutrans model, industries are created near a city (with the exception of power stations etc.), so I guess that's why you get the clustering.

[Creat]

First off: No, I didn't know that I could do that So thank you, this does at least give some flexibility. It might also improve the distribution for some reason (after just a few tries it seems like it at least, even though I have no clue why it would).

Now I can generate a map until I find a city distribution (without insane city sizes) I like, save it and generate industries a few times until it suits my wishes. Still a bit fiddly, but much better than generating maps for an hour or two It would be nice
And yes, I know I can use Simutrans Experimental where city spawning can be configured with a bit more detail, like setting "Number of Big Cities" to 0.

Off I go to do some more experimenting then... Let's hope I can find a map or two I actually want to play! Thanks again for the advice!

PS: I don't think industries (not shops) like spawning near cities at all (and it hasn't been my experience that they do). If you take a look at cityrules.tab, industry doesn't like to be near residentials and vice versa (both are set to -8). As I mentioned I did play a bit with those values, but couldn't find any good values unfortunately.

[IgorEliezer]

In the Simutrans model, industries are created near a city (with the exception of power stations etc.), so I guess that's why you get the clustering.

There's a thing I hate with passion are incompatible buildings next to each other, "urbanisticaly" speaking. I usually start maps with very small towns, and all end-consumer industries end up clogging up the downtown and are built side by side with townhalls. I like to build streets all around the townhall, just for the looks (for bus stops too), and I'm forced to move the industries a few tiles away.

I'd like Simutrans had a parameter that sets the minimum distance between the end-consumer industries and townhalls.

[Combuijs]

On the other hand you will see (old) industrial buildings very near the center when a town is grown because of the industry.

[IgorEliezer]

On the other hand you will see (old) industrial buildings very near the center when a town is grown because of the industry.

Yep, that's true. But still "Very near" is different from "Next to". Being in the downtown is not a big issue, the problem is the townhall being surrounded by industries.

If the distance between the end-consumer industry and the townhall were 4 tiles, or at least 2, it would be great. :3

[greenling]

Hello All
The industry's in Pak128 have a little problem, they are all over one tile big.
And That make at maps they have a big Map roughness the placing form industry's difficult.