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Offline z9999

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r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« on: January 04, 2009, 07:16:41 PM »
r2211 GDI

Problem:
When I make a stop beside of public stop, it also became public.

This behavior is very bad for AI, it often happned that start and destination stop became same station.
I often had this problem, and thus I very liked the behavior of new public station tool in 101.0.

Please don't change this.

I think this tool is for human player, and if human player want to make AI player's stop to public, it should to be done by manually by changing player.

Changing to public is always done by player's will by this tool, it should not happen automatically. Changing automatically is very bad bahavior of old version which I don't like it.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 07:26:01 PM by z9999 »

Offline prissi

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2009, 08:16:29 PM »
Passenger AI had a bug with stop tool. It is ok to discuss more of the default behaviour.

I want to know the opinion of the other player, especially when one think of network game modus.

Offline z9999

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2009, 08:36:02 PM »
Each player should have a right not to use public stop and a right to build own stop next to public stop, I think.
Especially in town there are few space to build stop, if there is public station, avoiding it is very difficult.

Offline prissi

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2009, 08:44:25 PM »
I see your point of course. I just want to hear also other peoples opinion. Changing it is very easy.

Offline VS

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2009, 08:53:38 PM »
Is there a way to join stations once built?

Offline z9999

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2009, 09:04:58 PM »
Yes, but unfortunately public station tool is not a default tool.
You need to edit menuconf.tab.

Quote
# @ key for public station tool
general_tool[32]=,,,@

So, I heard some people complaining they can't make stop to public.
If this tool was default tool, they didn't complain it, I think.

Offline prissi

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2009, 10:54:00 PM »
I want to make it a default tool if there is a network player modus. Before this tool, adding to public station was the only way to add own stations. In German forum there was complained about not having this behaviour. So I have to wait the outcome of this discussion.

Offline Combuijs

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2009, 12:33:39 AM »
Hmm, let's see. Say we have a public station. Why should I want to build a new separate private station just near it, instead of extending that public station?

Pro: Getting passengers that can only be transported by my company
Against: More maintenance cost for my company

So it can be useful if there is a factory or an attraction (lots of passengers/mail) just in reach (very) near the public station. In my opinion that is rare.

On the other hand I've played multi-player games (both with more than one human players and with one human player playing more companies). It happened quite often that a station turned public by accident when extending the station as the wrong (e.g. public) player. That was very annoying, but if Simutrans is really played as a multiplayer game that hardly can happen as the distinction between the companies (and public player) is much clearer and better safeguarded.

All and all, I'm quite neutral to the change. Being able to make separate stations for different players near each other can be a useful function, but will not often be used. Well, if there is an easy way to turn station public (for the public player), why not?

Offline z9999

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2009, 08:20:03 AM »
I want to make it a default tool if there is a network player modus.

That's too late.
Public stop was requested and implemented for more than 3 years ago.
And many people keep using it very often for a long time.

Their complain is, they can't find a way to make their own stop to public.
Their complain is not, they their own stop don't change to public automatically.

Can someone explain for me, why automatically is useful than manually, and why manually is bad ?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 08:37:36 AM by z9999 »

Offline prissi

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2009, 09:26:41 AM »
The behavious now is the behaviour it has been for three years.

There is a tool without image for making a stop public (and joining to a nearby public stop). With this tool, the need for automatic public stops is gone. But in pak64 there is no button so far for this tool yet.

Conclusion: seperate station make sense, since making public stops is very expensive. Manually joining or making public is possible in principle.

But I really need more input on this. I am slightly in favour of changing the three year old behaviour to the one of seperate stops and require the use of the make stop public tool. But as you say, it is a three year old behaviour (or rather older) so any change should be discussed indeep. Please z9999 I am not against you, rather neutral.

Offline z9999

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2009, 11:03:39 AM »
Thank you, prissi.

Well, unfortunately my English was very bad and didn't come across well.

Offline Magic_Gorter

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2009, 11:53:40 AM »
I'm also neutral on this topic. I rarely build this way so which option will be chosen it's ok with me.

Offline VS

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2009, 12:06:09 PM »
Well, I won't write the program, so this may be a bit useless...

Here is a feature-complete proposal. Most parts are probably already implemented... but this is an attempt to show a system in it, a system which has logic and more advantages than disadvantages, and requires minimal changes:

1) Public authority (PA) belongs to administrator. Always.

2) When building station tile, check if there is nearby station of same player
  • if yes, merge;
  • if no, new station;
  • ignore stations belonging to all other players (including PA).

3) Have some way of making station public:
  • if the station belongs to active player
  • if active player is PA, allow for any station

4) A tool to merge stations (invoked by player, not automatically):
  • only if they are next to each other and
  • only if they both belong to active player.

=> Key principle: Players can't join stations with other players without both/all of them making the stations public first, and PA must approve of the merger too.

Advantages:
  • Players can build stations next to each other (public authority, too!)
  • Players can merge their own stations when they make mistakes
  • Players can turn their stations into public
  • Only when two (or more) players reach consensus, they can make their stations public and join them

Disadvantages:
  • Competition between PA (joined) stops and other players - example: A, B & C transport from some place; A & C decide to join their stations but B stays aside. Now he gets more cargo and the two less because there are 2 stations instead of 3.
  • A third party (PA) is required to complete station mergers - when the station is changed to public, players can't do it any more as it belongs to somebody else.
  • Without PA's attention, players can not cooperate.

Discussion:
It is important to understand that in the end, only PA (admin) can merge stations from more players.

This sort of combines well with the second disadvantage, which I would call a feature. Merging stations needs consensus of all involved players, and when it happens, they all have to indicate willingness to do it (turning stations over to PA) before an actual merging happens.

In a way, it is a primitive voting system, without any actual [needed new] interface.

Thus a "rogue" player can only stall the process, since everyone could see he did not change his stop to public. This is also why a tool for joining any stations can't simply turn them both into public - the other player must have some way to indicate agreement!

With this system, there is no way to "steal" a station from other player by making it public and maybe merging with it. PA has the ultimate control of all inter-player station mergers, so as long as the admin stays neutral, the game is fair.

But the admin/PA must be present for mergers. How frequently do they happen, is it too much of a disadvantage?

Also, as long as PA pays attention, first disadvantage is not important. He can forcefully take over any station and merge it to already existing complex.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 12:11:29 PM by VS »

Offline prissi

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2009, 12:27:50 PM »
All those tools exist It is merely the question if automatic merging to a public stop is desired.

Offline z9999

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2009, 01:20:20 PM »
And it also means, building each player's stop next to public stop should be forbidden or not.

Offline Lodovico

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2009, 01:49:47 PM »
I would personally appreciate an option(== a button) to merge one of my stops to another one of my stops/stations.
Even if they are 2-5 (no more) tiles afar.

Just click the stop I wish to be merged, then click to the anther that gorges the first one and his cargo.
Now, if I do the same manually, the cargo at merged stop is lost.

Offline prissi

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2009, 02:52:42 PM »
Merging stops far away is not intended to be included. THe tool in question makes a stop a public one. If it is next to a public stop, those will be merged. No further functionality is needed nor inteded for multiplayer games.

The question in this thread is just, if this should happen automatically next to a public stop or not.

Offline VS

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2009, 03:20:17 PM »
Well then if you want my opinion, no. Instead, make a tool for manual merging of neighbouring stations.

Offline isidoro

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2009, 05:11:06 AM »
I usually play multiplayer (alone).  I'm used to the present state.  But thinking real multiplayer, it seems more logical to me that my stations won't get automatically merged if built side of a PA station.  PA stations should only be built by PA player just new or turning any other preexisting stations into public.  Won't PA pay the costs of maintenance of those stations?  So, he must have the power.




Offline prissi

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2009, 09:51:43 PM »
Ok three no one yes. That will do it for me.

Offline whoami

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2009, 10:12:02 PM »
Ok three no one yes. That will do it for me.
Oh, this was a poll, and it is already over? :)

For multiplayer, IMO a normal player should not be allowed to change public stations, even by adding tiles to it. So, automatic merging should not work for normal players.

I would personally appreciate an option(== a button) to merge one of my stops to another one of my stops/stations.
I like that idea.
And the public authority could use that function to merge private stations with a public one, making them also public.

SQ285

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2009, 07:55:33 AM »
just keep using playing simutrans 101.0 with pak64 and discovered this new feature.
as a frequent multi-player user, i can see this feature but it is far too annoying to delete the old station and rebuild a new public one.

in reality (in our city Hong Kong at least), passengers are used to interchange between companies within a walking distance,
let say a resident took a bus to the nearest bus stop next to a railway station and change trains to Central to work.
the bus companys and the railway company are seperate companies and they charge the passengers seperately.

to facilitate this type of interchange, should there be any ways instead of creating 14 lines of buses on the same route?
or can the passengers be able to interchange between two stops within a few tiles (let say 1 or 2)?
anyway, the previous way of creating public transport interchange maybe a better way though,
as the Government has the right to set up interchanges for a better transportation network
(it maybe just a different point of view in the competitive East Asian transport networks as we often have a variaty of transportation companies in just one city)

PS: in Japan there are through train services from one line to another (and to another). train sets are shared on the line but stations are not, it maybe another solution but of course, it is too unfair in simutrans :o

Offline prissi

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2009, 09:01:30 AM »
If you manage to stop a train at another station (i.e. first building waypoint then station on this tile) passenger will interchage there I think.

The make public and join allows for easier creation of interchange station then before. First click make any of the station you want to join public. If you use this tool on a station touching this station, it will join with this station. No rebuilding is neccessary, and since a player can make his own stations public, this will work on locked maps (for network mode).

SQ285

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2009, 04:06:02 PM »
i can see your point but i cannot see the button...

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2009, 04:30:39 PM »
You discovered this new feature and now can't find the button?  ???

Should be the last button on the special tools menu (but only on pak64 r125 and later)

Offline VS

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2009, 04:33:55 PM »
It's in 128 nightlies, too.

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2009, 04:35:42 PM »
Yes, but he said he plays pak64  ;)

SQ285

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2009, 04:50:08 PM »
the stupidest question: where is r125 of pak64? thanks!

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2009, 04:53:50 PM »

SQ285

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2009, 04:56:34 PM »
thanks and sorry to be an idiot

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2009, 04:57:10 PM »
You are new - that's something else!  ;)

Offline VS

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2009, 04:58:46 PM »
Hmmmm... what else could that mean?

SQ285

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2009, 05:02:17 PM »
i am not new though, just my previous account been deleted for a looooooooooong time

my mum always says "you played the game for 10 years"

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2009, 05:05:39 PM »
@VS:

Well, at least no hidden meaning was intended here. Only that he is not an idiot just because he didn't know. (And it certainly does not mean that not knowing in combination with not being new, would make someone else an idiot.) Or what were you hinting at (just being curious)?

@SQ285:

Ask fabio how many things can change if you "leave" for just one year...

SQ285

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2009, 05:09:28 PM »
yes the game has improved and keep on improving, thanks!

by the way, i used the Nightly-Build pak64 r127 and still cannot see the button
what files needed for me to use play the game with this button (it is soooooooooooo important to me!)

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2009, 05:34:44 PM »
Hmmm... it should be there, maybe try a nightly version for the program itself, too?

Offline Dwachs

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2009, 09:19:55 AM »
I have two additional questions about public stations:

Currently, any player can remove a public stations. In network (or AI) games, this feature/bug can be used to screw up other players. Should this possibility be removed?



If one starts more than one passenger AI in the game, they try to build independent networks, often there stations are placed tile-by-tile. Would it be possible/ wanted/ not wanted to consider neighboring station as connected? That is, if 'Station A' of 'Player A' is adjacent to 'Station B' of 'Player B' both stations are considered connected, the transfer of passengers from A to B would count as one additional transfer (they have to walk..).




Offline Combuijs

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Re: r2211 - Public station tool behavior
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2009, 09:59:46 AM »
Quote
Currently, any player can remove a public stations. In network (or AI) games, this feature/bug can be used to screw up other players. Should this possibility be removed?

I think that would be better, yes.

Quote
That is, if 'Station A' of 'Player A' is adjacent to 'Station B' of 'Player B' both stations are considered connected, the transfer of passengers from A to B would count as one additional transfer (they have to walk..).

OK, so you propose an automatic connection between two adjacent stations? Hmm, don't know about that one. What do you do if player A = player B? Consider them adjacent would be logical then, and beginners would love this  :D , but sometimes the separation is intended. I would vote "not wanted", but with a possibility two merge two stations into one. That new station will be a public one if from different players (can only be done by public player), and a player one if the stations are from the same player.