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Author Topic: bridgewater-brunel.me.uk - Simutrans-Experimental - Pak128.Britain-Ex 0.9.1  (Read 183191 times)

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Offline VOLVO

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It will only be a bit less than 2 years for one real life day to pass, plus I'm constantly connecting to it in day time now because it really is very slow..
It will only save me some reconnection maneuver when I hear my computer turns into jet mode (Lots of fan noise when de-synchronise)...
So the impact might not be as large as you think.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 04:02:17 PM by VOLVO »

Offline ӔO

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by the way, those trains in 1825, if they are only ran on flat land, they can easily replace two paddle steamer ships, if you don't mind not having any mail service on them

Offline VOLVO

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by the way, those trains in 1825, if they are only ran on flat land, they can easily replace two paddle steamer ships, if you don't mind not having any mail service on them
I've already have a short route ready for the trains, but I would rather wait for 1829 for intercity routes

Offline ӔO

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Sarlock, could you please open up the canals near Yercaster (5726,921) and Portosterly (5726,902)

I have not check the map since yesterday, but there was a major backlog of pax all along the west coast on the eastern island.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 05:19:02 PM by ӔO »

Offline Sarlock

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Sarlock, could you please open up the canals near Yercaster (5726,921) and Portosterly (5726,902)

You bet.


Quote
I have not check the map since yesterday, but there was a major backlog of pax all along the west coast on the eastern island.

Probably.  There are tons of backlogs growing as I haven't added any pax/mail ships to overloaded lines in many years, choosing to wait for trains instead of overtaxing the server more than it already is.

By 1829-1830 that will be fixed.

Offline ӔO

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thanks!

I suspect some of the backlog is caused by the road line that goes along the coast there.

Offline AP

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I'm sorry but these ship "no route" errors are a total pain in the backside. They take so long to figure out and fix it's not at all funny. Especially since the server spends most of its time saving/loading/static when there's >1 player connected.
 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 10:27:41 PM by AP »

Offline ӔO

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1825 trains are better than expected.

Just don't make them overly long, otherwise they suffer on hills.

Offline AP

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1825 trains are better than expected.

Just don't make them overly long, otherwise they suffer on hills.
Surely more locomotives fixes that problem? (or fewer hills ;) )

Offline ӔO

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Surely more locomotives fixes that problem? (or fewer hills ;) )

Well, you can try, if you want to, but for myself, I prefer two engines and 16 wagons.

How does everyone play on the peak hours?
I saw 3 players at one point, but most of the time the server doesn't respond because it's connecting someone.

Offline AP

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How does everyone play on the peak hours?
I saw 3 players at one point, but most of the time the server doesn't respond because it's connecting someone.

I saw it get to 4. But it was pretty painful to do anything for much of this evening. But clearly if we're all in the same time zone/working day, there isn't much we can do to avoid peak times.

Offline Sarlock

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Indeed, I usually wait until the dead times to try and get online.  I think we're pretty spread over the globe, however, so there's almost always someone in prime player hours.  My usual playing hours are around 9pm-12am Pacific Time.

Offline Sarlock

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Whatever magic wand you waved at the server made an amazing improvement to performance!  The GUI runs much smoother again, I've been connected for 2 game hours without a disconnect and the server seems better able to handle the convoy load.

Thank you!

This should see us through another 5-10 years until we load up the server with another few thousand convoys ;)

EDIT:

Desynch @ 3:00:00 Jan 1828

Code: [Select]
Message: network_command_t::rdwr: read packet_id=9, client_id=0
Warning: network_check_activity(): received cmd id=9 nwc_check_t from socket[488]
Warning: NWC_CHECK: time difference to server -710
Warning: karte_t::interactive: sync_step=74624  server=[rand=3046562285 halt=2884 line=1666 cnvy=12663 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17748 traffic=91133423] client=[rand=1851505657 halt=2884 line=1666 cnvy=12663 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17748 traffic=91133475]
Warning: karte_t::interactive: disconnecting due to checklist mismatch
Warning: karte_t::network_disconnect(): Lost synchronisation with server. Random flags: 0
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::reset: all static variables are reset

EDIT 2:

Desynch @ 3:00:00, Feb 1828

Code: [Select]
Warning: karte_t::interactive: sync_step=99968  server=[rand=1312563863 halt=2944 line=1673 cnvy=12742 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17748 traffic=91413626] client=[rand=1208293974 halt=2944 line=1673 cnvy=12742 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17748 traffic=91413490]
Warning: karte_t::interactive: disconnecting due to checklist mismatch
Warning: karte_t::network_disconnect(): Lost synchronisation with server. Random flags: 0
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::reset: all static variables are rese


***
Down to about once a month, which is much, much better.  :)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 02:19:20 AM by Sarlock »

Offline VOLVO

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I have manage to stay connected for a whole year yesterday actually.. (wow!)

As james mentioning the unrealistic gameplay think I might express some of my opinions

I think it will be much better if someone plays as a government (probably more than 1 person is good thing too)
Major infrastructures such as canals and railways should be regulated
I can see two canals running together to the same direction on the map (which is pointess)
The shallow network of railways (which is the fear of not getting any shares of the railway age..)
And to be honest even if you make plateways unavailable in the 18th century,
people can still use canals to pre-build railways :-X
If things like that have to put through a review first can prevent the situations like these..

This might make the gaming a bit more restricted, but it is realistic in real life terms.

Some more factors such as destroyed rivers and landscapes should be recovered when the infrastructure etc..
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 09:41:24 AM by VOLVO »

Online jamespetts gb

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Sarlock,

the "magic wand" to which you refer is my recompilation of the binary used to run the server with different compile settings, on TurfIt's suggestion: it turns out that the server had been running a debug build. It is noteworthy that you noticed a difference even without being told about it, which rules out any placebo effect. I should be interested in any other feedback on performance/frequency of desyncs that anyone else might be able to give following the recompilation.

Volvo,

I am not sure what sort of regulation that you have in mind, but regulation of any sort, especially on such a large map, is a somewhat labour intensive thing for a human player to have to do. I am rather more keen on balancing the game better to give players the incentive to play in a realistic way. Proper price balancing should ensure that it is economic suicide to build vast networks which remain unused for decades.

Offline Sarlock

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I was able to stay connected for about 2-3 months in a row last night, which is the first time I've been able to do that in many, many weeks. :)

Regarding regulation, I think that taming city growth will help quite a bit in this respect.  Part of the impetus for placing right-of-ways for future railroads is that city growth is so dramatic that all of open spaces were being consumed and the cities were merging in to giant megalopolises, making it extremely expensive to later come through these areas and bulldoze railways through (not to mention the significant loss of population which would also hurt profits by lowering potential pax/mail revenue from that area that was bulldozed).

It's pretty hard to limit these "cheats" as the players have the advantage of knowing what the next 250 years of transportation advances will bring, while the people in 1750 obviously had no clear vision.  In the late 1700's we were already claiming open tracts of land for future airports!

I also think that simply removing interest from the game will go a long way to assist in this as well, since once you build up enough cash and interest revenue, you can completely disregard profitable operations as long as you're still cash positive.  Players will be more careful about placing a large amount of early infrastructure that isn't earning profits.

I've stayed away from pre building railroads because I have something else in mind, otherwise I would have snaked a network all over the eastern island by now as well.

Offline ӔO

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yeah, the claiming of land was thanks to city growth, industry growth and excess income.

Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered until 1825.

Offline Sarlock

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Lots of desynchs while trying to build my railway.  3 people online currently (or trying to be online).

Code: [Select]
Warning: karte_t::interactive: skipping command due to checklist mismatch : sync_step=479863 server=[rand=1125283916 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95705914] executor=[rand=1185382635 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95705914]
Warning: karte_t::network_disconnect(): Lost synchronisation with server. Random flags: 0
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::reset: all static variables are reset


Warning: karte_t::interactive: sync_step=481372  server=[rand=2301510979 halt=2997 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95720580] client=[rand=502712253 halt=2997 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95720556]
Warning: karte_t::interactive: disconnecting due to checklist mismatch
Warning: karte_t::network_disconnect(): Lost synchronisation with server. Random flags: 0
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::reset: all static variables are reset


Message: network_command_t::rdwr: read packet_id=8, client_id=0
Warning: nwc_tool_t::rdwr: rdwr id=8 client=3 plnr=2 pos=161,702,-6 wkzid=4100 defpar=17 #all down slope init=0 flags=0
Warning: network_check_activity(): received cmd id=8 nwc_tool_t from socket[532]
Message: nwc_tool_t::pre_execute: append sync_step=482034 wkz=4100 work
Warning: karte_t::interactive: skipping command due to checklist mismatch : sync_step=482006 server=[rand=3088201207 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95726182] executor=[rand=1865031780 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95726143]
Warning: karte_t::network_disconnect(): Lost synchronisation with server. Random flags: 0
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::reset: all static variables are reset

Warning: NWC_CHECK: time difference to server -284
Message: network_command_t::rdwr: read packet_id=8, client_id=0
Warning: nwc_tool_t::rdwr: rdwr id=8 client=1 plnr=2 pos=159,703,-7 wkzid=4110 defpar=WoodTrestleElevatedRoad init=0 flags=0
Warning: network_check_activity(): received cmd id=8 nwc_tool_t from socket[672]
Message: nwc_tool_t::pre_execute: append sync_step=482990 wkz=4110 work
Warning: karte_t::interactive: skipping command due to checklist mismatch : sync_step=482965 server=[rand=2036190520 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95733898] executor=[rand=1686137628 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95733926]
Warning: karte_t::network_disconnect(): Lost synchronisation with server. Random flags: 0
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::reset: all static variables are reset

Message: void convoi_t::laden(): Possible timetable anomaly detected. Skipping inserting journey time (convoy).
Message: void convoi_t::laden(): Possible timetable anomaly detected. Skipping inserting journey time (line).
Warning: karte_t::interactive: skipping command due to checklist mismatch : sync_step=483848 server=[rand=3358888653 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95741574] executor=[rand=693680270 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95741604]
Warning: karte_t::network_disconnect(): Lost synchronisation with server. Random flags: 0
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::reset: all static variables are reset

Message: void convoi_t::laden(): Possible timetable anomaly detected. Skipping inserting journey time (convoy).
Message: void convoi_t::laden(): Possible timetable anomaly detected. Skipping inserting journey time (line).
Warning: karte_t::interactive: sync_step=485180  server=[rand=1991889874 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95753706] client=[rand=4010618520 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95753694]
Warning: karte_t::interactive: disconnecting due to checklist mismatch
Warning: karte_t::network_disconnect(): Lost synchronisation with server. Random flags: 0
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::reset: all static variables are reset

Message: void convoi_t::laden(): Possible timetable anomaly detected. Skipping inserting journey time (convoy).
Message: void convoi_t::laden(): Possible timetable anomaly detected. Skipping inserting journey time (line).
Warning: karte_t::interactive: sync_step=485508  server=[rand=245293848 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95756498] client=[rand=2806725383 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95756522]
Warning: karte_t::interactive: disconnecting due to checklist mismatch
Warning: karte_t::network_disconnect(): Lost synchronisation with server. Random flags: 0
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::reset: all static variables are reset
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 05:55:12 PM by Sarlock »

Online jamespetts gb

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Hmm - thank you for letting me know. Does this seem to happen when you do anything in particular, and is it just you who loses synchronisation, or does everyone disconnect at the same time?

Offline ӔO

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The two times I disconnected, I was editing roads and upgrading tracks.

Offline Sarlock

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I'm online trying to determine this... at first I thought it was when I was laying track but it seems to be more broad than that: sometimes it's when I am laying a section and waiting for the server to place it, sometimes it's just when I am moving around the map.

I'll keep posting more desynch info to the same code window as I go through today, they're really frequent.  I'll post a bit of the logs before the desynch so that we know what's happening at the time.


Addition: While I was typing this, I connected in the background and was busy writing this.  I desynched without doing a single thing in-game (didn't even put in my password).  One player was on laying track at the time (according to the logs).

I think we're all desynching at different times, but all frequently.

Code: [Select]
Warning: karte_t::interactive: sync_step=486208  server=[rand=3234032248 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95762100] client=[rand=2749602838 halt=2049 line=1025 cnvy=8193 ind_dns_prop=3816 act_ind_dens=17793 traffic=95762076]
Warning: karte_t::interactive: disconnecting due to checklist mismatch
Warning: karte_t::network_disconnect(): Lost synchronisation with server. Random flags: 0
Warning: nwc_routesearch_t::reset: all static variables are reset

Online jamespetts gb

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Thank you for that information - posting a larger log extract for each desync might be very helpful.

Offline VOLVO

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It's difficult to explain how can I stay connect for a game year in the afternoon and then desync every second in the evening.
I assume it's due to intensive building of infrastructures and others cannot keep up
(3 people was building things at the same time.)

For de-bug info :
Without other player connecting I managed to stay connect.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 07:57:24 PM by VOLVO »

Online jamespetts gb

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This is a very confusing pattern of behaviour, which, I am afraid, makes it very difficult to work out what the problem actually is. I have not previously seen a checklist mismatch type desync caused by building: all previous checklist mismatch desyncs that were found and fixed were caused by simulation differences. Building will always invoke checking of the checklist (otherwise only done every few dozen seconds), so a desync might appear to occur on building due to a problem actually occurring a number of seconds earlier, but it seems odd that players are sometimes able to connect for hours on end and sometimes are disconnected very swiftly; finding a pattern in that behaviour is likely to be the best way to begin to address the issue.

Offline Sarlock

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Indeed.  Last night I was doing building as well, but mostly canals, roads and putting extra ships in places that needed the extra capacity (just one small piece of railway) and was able to stay connected for long stretches at a time (mind you, I was the only person online at the time, too).  Today, I am building tunnels and stations.  I can't see why that would make a difference, but something dramatic has changed in the last 12 hours and switching to rail infrastructure is the only thing on the player end that would have changed.

Offline VOLVO

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This is a very confusing pattern of behaviour, which, I am afraid, makes it very difficult to work out what the problem actually is. I have not previously seen a checklist mismatch type desync caused by building: all previous checklist mismatch desyncs that were found and fixed were caused by simulation differences. Building will always invoke checking of the checklist (otherwise only done every few dozen seconds), so a desync might appear to occur on building due to a problem actually occurring a number of seconds earlier, but it seems odd that players are sometimes able to connect for hours on end and sometimes are disconnected very swiftly; finding a pattern in that behaviour is likely to be the best way to begin to address the issue.
Can it be like the speed of building provoke a very frequent check-list which clients' computer cannot keep up with the respond leads to the deync?
Sarlock was just building like crazy, seems like a station every second... and to add to that, the station were build tile by tile, unlike building a section of tracks.

I do not have any knowledge in gaming programming.. So excuse if the above does not make sense at all.

Offline Sarlock

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Quote
Sarlock was just building like crazy, seems like a station every second... and to add to that, the station were build tile by tile, unlike building a section of tracks.

I was testing some different things to see if makes any effect, but it doesn't seem to matter much what approach I take, the desynchs happen anyways... sometimes even when I'm not doing anything.

Online jamespetts gb

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No, if the server was not able to keep up with the building, there would be an "execute in the past" type desync rather than a checklist desync. A checklist desync can only, so far as I am aware, occur through an error (which might be an extremely subtle error) in the simulation code causing divergence of behaviour between server and client.

Offline prissi

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Could it be that some of the way search constants (i.e. maximum number of tiles to check) are not synchronized. For building way a lot of tiles are check. If this order does not match, then you will get quick desyncs.

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Hmm - interesting thought; but these are  saved/loaded in Standard, I think? I do not think that I have altered this in Experimental - unless the code that I introduced recently to cause vehicles to give up trying to find a route if they were likely to fail because the route was too long has this effect, perhaps? I cannot immediately see how this would lose synchronisation, however.

Offline Sarlock

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With the server that you're running this on, is there a maximum upload bandwidth allotment that you have?  With the number of disconnects today, we've probably collectively downloaded that 45 MB save file about 200 times (9 GB).

Offline ӔO

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The server (and sometimes client) may or may not crash when decommissioning or deleting severely overcrowded stations or stations in walking distance of those overcrowded stations.

I've had it happen occasionally, but not always, so I think that is the cause, but can't say conclusively without more testing.

Offline VOLVO

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After more observations,
I can conclude that desync only occurs a lot when people are building stations

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I can conclude that desync only occurs a lot when people are building stations

Confirmed.

Offline ӔO

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the server game has crashed due to a koord out of bounds bug.