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Author Topic: Tracks replacement project for pak 128  (Read 121706 times)

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Offline missingpiece

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #105 on: January 19, 2012, 08:37:58 PM »
Hej Fabio,

seeing your nice artistic work, I just read up on high-speed tracks. Cause I was wondering if 200km/h tracks would still have the gravel bed. Seems like they do, at least until 1980. I am referring to a wikipedia article in German where they state that from the 1990s on, high-speed tracks in Japan and Germany were built on a concrete bed; that has lower risk of flying stones and reduces maintenance cost as well.

Also I learnt that your tunnel entrances are excellently mapping to the physical requirements : they need to be wide for high speeds so that pressure changes when entering the tunnel are reduced as much as possible.

Offline VS

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #106 on: January 19, 2012, 09:10:57 PM »
Oh, layout is good :) Perhaps the brick and stone textures could be a bit smaller. Apart from that, there isn't much to add, perhaps the double-sided versions could also merge the paved top, but that's not important.

Offline mEGa

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #107 on: January 20, 2012, 04:01:19 PM »
Hi
layout and tracks are verygood.
Imho, I suggest to apply shadow on hole of tunnel like this :



What about it ?

Offline missingpiece

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #108 on: January 21, 2012, 08:47:17 AM »
With the sun standing South, the shadow could be even "bigger"; there would hardly be any rays touching the inner wall and actually, the track would largely be in the dark. At least in this perspective, which you posted, mEGa. Rotating by 90° clockwise, the shadow would be approximately like that. The sun is supposed to be 60° above the horizon, is it not ?

Offline Václav

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #109 on: January 21, 2012, 11:49:49 AM »
??? It seems like if all use model of track for speed 280 km/h. May it be. No problem - but there is one thing that is needed to do too - replacement of electrifications. Without it it will not be complete.

And of course, I wish I would like to see more types (shapes) of tunnels - regardless of I know that there is limitation.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #110 on: January 25, 2012, 04:30:56 PM »
Here's a complete new version of the tunnels above taking into consideration the feedback received:



Thanks,

seeing your nice artistic work, I just read up on high-speed tracks. Cause I was wondering if 200km/h tracks would still have the gravel bed. Seems like they do, at least until 1980. I am referring to a wikipedia article in German where they state that from the 1990s on, high-speed tracks in Japan and Germany were built on a concrete bed; that has lower risk of flying stones and reduces maintenance cost as well.
200 km/h and 240 km/h are not to be considered High Speed tracks in this pakset. Railways are considered high speed if they allow peak speeds OVER 250 km/h (new laid tracks, 200 km/h for upgrading older lines).
The pakset will have 3 specific High Speed tracks, allowing respectively speeds of 280 km/h, 320 km/h and 400 kmh.
The first one will be pure conventional tracks (with ballast and sleepers), the second one will still have a gravel bed, but will use a sleeperless system ("half sleepers"), yet the fastest one will have tracks laid on a concrete platform.

Offline VS

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #111 on: January 25, 2012, 07:51:43 PM »
Apart from some slight dirt and grit, these are LOVELY. Okay, all caps, sorry, but... yes :D

Offline mEGa

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #112 on: January 26, 2012, 07:45:44 PM »
Really good work ! I like especially "100km/h" tracks.
Just a "little little" suggestion :
Often in the entrance of rail tunnels there are cupboards of service. Perhaps, add one of them could get more realism ?

Offline sdog

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #113 on: January 27, 2012, 06:11:05 AM »
"cupboards of service"
would you please explain this expression? i'm afraid, i don't understand it.

Offline mEGa

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #114 on: January 27, 2012, 02:44:49 PM »
"cupboards of service"
would you please explain this expression? i'm afraid, i don't understand it.
Oups, I wasn't sure about this translation... It's a human size box to manage electric or communication networks.



But we can also have railmen's workshop who work on tracks, may be ?

Offline Markohs

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #115 on: January 27, 2012, 03:34:04 PM »
That's actually a great idea imo.

Offline Zeno

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #116 on: January 27, 2012, 07:56:28 PM »
Oh, those! It's funny how the "cupboards" word moved my mind to my kitchen! And I couldn't find any relation with simutrans! :P
Anyway, that's a fantastic idea mEGa. It may add realism as well as a bit of detail which will make the graphics more... uhm, dynamic, complete; and with rather a low effort.
You know, by adding a small detail you make things look much more interesting, not just a plain tunnel entrance. It's like a house with/without a mail box on the door 8)

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #117 on: January 27, 2012, 09:47:03 PM »
These kind of details added, and I'll try some, but my biggest concern is being repeated too many times: once it's great, twice is ok, but many of them in a small area could look too fake. I try to be more minimalist usually. But this one, I'll try it.

By the way, bridges for 140, 160 and 180 km/h are almost ready, I hope to be able to post a screenshot tomorrow. For 100 and 120 km/h I'm planning to use an edited version of current bridges for, respectively, 110 and 160 (both should be Raven's).

Offline Zeno

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #118 on: January 27, 2012, 09:56:37 PM »
Good point, fabio. If the same detail was placed in all tunnels it would become repetitive. Maybe a small box can do the job for earlier tunnels, then bigger for most modern ones; also changing color and position (left/right) may help to variety. Maybe a sign can replace the box in certain tunnels, just to give extra joy for our eyes :)

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #119 on: January 27, 2012, 10:39:51 PM »
True. But OTOH one route is often made consistently of tunnels of same speed (and thus same look). I wish we could have a random factor so that there are several variants in the same object and the program chooses one during placement (and this could go for all player objects...)

Offline Zeno

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #120 on: January 27, 2012, 10:53:43 PM »
Why not leave the tunnels "as they are" without any more details and create a new set of signals called "signaling box"? Is it possible to create a signal that does nothing? If not, maybe a signal limiting speed to 1000kmh could do the job :)

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #121 on: January 27, 2012, 11:19:26 PM »
It is very possible and I was thinking pretty much of the same. Obviously they would cost 0 as they are just eye candy.

Offline missingpiece

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #122 on: January 28, 2012, 02:46:08 AM »
But OTOH one route is often made consistently of tunnels of same speed (and thus same look).
Maybe put the box not into all rotations of a tunnel ?

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #123 on: January 28, 2012, 04:17:56 AM »
Stations can have an even/odd alternation for platforms... the same logic could apply to ways and signals, perhaps?  It would be quite nice to have a "signal bridge" that spanned two tracks, either as a single center mast with beams out to left and right, or as masts outside the tracks to left and right with a beam above across... and signals on top.  Applied to tunnels, a twin-bore with two tunnel entrances could have only the "even" tiles with the signal-box "closet" (or "cupboard").  Just like stations.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #124 on: January 28, 2012, 08:35:31 AM »
Bridges already can  (the "double portal"). It might be worth a try.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #125 on: January 28, 2012, 10:12:12 AM »
New post:

As promised last night, a screenshot for 140, 160 and 180 km/h bridges:


(click on image to zoom)

Offline VS

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #126 on: January 28, 2012, 11:31:51 AM »
You know, that's good enough for me, I'll leave criticism to MeGa :P

Hm, one nitpick - the fence (?) on 160 could be AA-ed, too...

Offline mEGa

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #127 on: January 28, 2012, 02:34:28 PM »
Yes, me too. It's quite perfect !

Just to feed discussion about accessories : I also suggested  a little house of construction site for workers... An alternative to fight the repetitive aspect. IMHO, Missingpeace suggestion is an good idea; change accessories according to 4 views...
But I also know that it is rather impracticable and I aggree with the opinion of Fabio.
So one more time : brilliant work especialliy 140 km/h bridge... Better than my old mine.
I vote for it !

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #128 on: January 28, 2012, 03:12:15 PM »
About accessories: I wonder if signals can have negative maintenance: building workers' huts could cost but would ease maintenance works so having negative maintenance...

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #129 on: January 28, 2012, 07:35:02 PM »
Negative maintenance sounds like a cheat... however this might work as option:
  • Way without accessory, cost 5000 maintenance 100
  • Way with accessory, cost 7500 maintenance 75
The difference in maintenance should be relatively small, but about enough that the increased cost would pay off in about five or ten years.  (Here, the 500 cost pays off in 500_cost/25_saved_maint/12_months = 8.33 years.)

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #130 on: January 28, 2012, 07:46:28 PM »
We could achieve the same result making a signal, or another object which costs 2500 and has maintainance of -25, if this is the math :)
This signals would be mostly eyecandy, and they would need a track laid in the first place, so there is few cheating involved: you spend money now to pay less maintainance from now on...

Offline sdog

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #131 on: January 29, 2012, 02:05:16 AM »
i like the fence at the brick viaduct in particular.

seems like the bridge builders influenced each other a lot and pushed quality further and further.

the new pak.britain bridges were unsurpassed before, but now, this puts the bar even higher.




those maintenance objects are perhaps better left only eye candy. else you will find it on every tile without a signal with most players. power-gamer attitude isn't something one easily gets rid of.

Offline Václav

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #132 on: January 29, 2012, 07:35:08 AM »
Those bridges for speed 140, 160 and 180 km/h are surely good - but I think that bridges for higher speeds deserve to have different shaped pillars. It means that they at least will not be (simple) rectangles like on bridge for speed 180 km/h.

Offline Arkadiusz

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #133 on: January 29, 2012, 08:18:58 AM »
Will this also include a catenary replacement? For example, the sudden switch from standard to third rail and then back to other types of overhead catenary was always giving me an aesthetical headache in pak128.

Offline Václav

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #134 on: January 29, 2012, 10:35:05 AM »
Arkadiusz, I created overhead catenary for speed 160 km/h some time ago. It is not perfect but if you would like to use it, you may find it here - together with else objects I prepared. Those pages are written czech, so you can understand them a little - but simple click on text Stáhnout for downloading of those ones.

But else, on the other hand, you are right. Replacement of catenaries is needed - but you are not the first who is asking this. Missing overhead one for speed 160 km/h is one point - and not well done one for speed 400 km/h (where are some imperfections - like wrong poles in T-crossings) is other point.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #135 on: January 31, 2012, 02:50:09 PM »
I'm having a go at elevated railroads (according to the plan).

Here the biggest problem is the placement of pillars, especially for structures less wide than a standard tile.
I want to avoid trains or trams underneath running into bridges, and the junction with straight segments needs to look decent in all possible combinations (I tried the same alignment of pak128.Britain, but it can give odd arches).

The following is just a concept, obviously it needs to be textured, aligned better, added details and so on...



Alternating arches of different span is not so uncommon in RL, and here it respects tiles alignment.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 11:29:50 AM by fabio »

Offline ӔO

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #136 on: January 31, 2012, 03:41:30 PM »
IMO, you could just draw them over sized
normally, double track rail viaducts are joined together as with one large deck, so I don't think it would be too out of place if the elevated ways were a full tile wide.

I don't know how you are painting them, but have a look at 4-way arches. Even when cut at a diagonal, they look like a regular bridge. For even better looks, chop off the pillar from one side of the diagonals. It's all about what can be seen under orthogonal projection.

plus, they would match up better when road elevated is drawn on top.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 03:50:59 PM by AEO »

Offline Fabio

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #137 on: January 31, 2012, 03:57:45 PM »
Thanks, AEO!

But, for the sake of consistency, also regular bridges for the same speeds should be 1 tile wide.

Probably this is the way to go, I'd like some more opinion, but if I enlarged to full tile width bridges and elevated for speeds from 140 km/h up things would be MUCH easier to paint.

Offline VS

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #138 on: January 31, 2012, 07:28:22 PM »
Hmmm. The idea with alternating arches is really nice, obviously you spent a lot of time planning...

I think the pillars are thick in the plane perpendicular to view, so their width can't be seen at all (just like side-on vehicles).

Offline mEGa

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Re: Tracks replacement project for pak 128
« Reply #139 on: January 31, 2012, 07:56:15 PM »
It is very promising, but I saw that element of perspective for diagonal pillar isn't right.
imho, this part should not be drawn.
See snapshot to understand my opinion.