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Author Topic: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?  (Read 11697 times)

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Offline jamespetts gb

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Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« on: January 28, 2016, 12:31:22 AM »
I have for some time planned to rename Simutrans-Experimental to Simutrans-Extended when it became more complete and balanced. However, I wonder whether there would be some benefit in doing it sooner than that, perhaps at the same time as the next release. Firstly, there is some suggestion that the current name is confusing people into believing that Simutrans-Experimental is a testing branch for Simutrans-Standard, whereas it is a fork with different goals (more realism and (realistic) complexity). This would make it more sensible to change the name sooner rather than later to dispel this confusion (and reduce the number of people who in the forum enquire as to when a certain feature from Experimental will be incorporated into Standard, when there are no plans ever to do so).

Secondly, I wonder whether re-naming will be more difficult the later that it is left: more people will have heard of "Simutrans-Experimental", and more people will find it hard to remember a new name. Also, I have recently started producing tutorial videos, and it would be worthwhile if all future videos could have the name that the version is planned to have in the long-term.

I should be interested in people's views on this, especially (but not only) those of Standard developers and the administrators of websites and social media outlets that may need amendment to reflect this putative change.

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2016, 03:23:29 AM »
"No time like the present" as far as I'm concerned. I think it's a better name, especially given the goals.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2016, 10:39:58 AM »
Thank you, that is helpful. Any other views?

Offline vzrenggamani

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2016, 11:54:09 AM »
i think if you change the name..
some people think its a new simutrans forked project..

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2016, 12:26:07 PM »
i think if you change the name..
some people think its a new simutrans forked project..


That is why any change in the name would need to be accompanied by appropriate publicity; but I doubt that that would in itself be a sufficient reason not to change the name.

Offline vzrenggamani

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2016, 01:06:19 PM »
i  agree about name change..  But when the name change after new releqse or before new release ? btw i dont understand what is your talking about :(
This quote :
but I doubt that that would in itself be a sufficient reason not to change the name.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2016, 01:08:09 PM »
The thing being suggested for consideration here is changing the name at the same time as the next release (not least because the name "Simutrans-Experimental" is embedded in the current version and requires a code change to alter).

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2016, 02:24:41 PM »
It's Simutrans Ex either way. Maybe even call it Simutrans-X, just for the sake of 90's-Kid ;)

But in all seriousness, I don't think it would be confusing at all, the words are so similar non-english speakers might not even notice the change. You should definitelly rename it before it hits Steam though, if you consider going there with your next version. (If Simutrans EX is even included in the greenlight for Simutrans, maybe it's considered a different game, I don't know)

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2016, 03:22:55 PM »
I'd do it with the next release.  There shouldn't be much confusion, as most players will be aware of the switch and the names are close enough that it shouldn't be much of an issue.

Offline isidoro

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2016, 10:34:45 PM »
While the name Simutrans Experimental had a reason some time ago, I agree that now it's confusing and implies subordination to a main project, which isn't the case.

Nonetheless, I think that Simutrans Extended isn't a good name either.  St-Ex isn't an extension of St-St since that would imply that Simutrans Standard is a subset of Simutrans Extended.  And, by now, the three possibilities exist: things in common, things only in Standard and things only in Experimental.

I would choose a more neutral term than "Extended".

Paying attention to the second concern, I don't see a problem in renaming the game.  Brands also rename their products once in a time.  Something like "Simutrans Experimental is now Simutrans..." in some strategic places in the web and in the starting screen of the game could suffice.

I would do the changes the sooner the better, since now "Experimental" isn't a good name for the game.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2016, 11:53:08 PM »
"Extended" is the candidate name because what is now Simutrans-Experimental aims to extend the features of Simutrans-Standard in significant ways, and also because it begins with the same two letters as "Experimental". Can anyone suggest any other word beginning with "Ex" that is better than "Extended" here?

Offline sdog

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2016, 12:37:11 AM »
Rather sooner than later.

Quote
Can anyone suggest any other word beginning with "Ex" that is better than "Extended" here?
perhaps:

Extended Economy Simutrans

Extra Complex Simutrans

Extremely Economic Simutrans

Expert's Simutrans

(The) Experimental Economist's Simutrans

Excruciatingly Difficult Simutrans

Extraordinarily Fine Simutranse

Exuberantly Whimsically Named Simutrans

I've realised that I became increasingly silly, at a not very well defined point in this list.


edit another one, Simutrans: Economics Fork

Offline Ves

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2016, 12:43:15 AM »
Although I think the name "Extended" would work nicely and fit the description of the game very well, I also find it not as exiting than its current name.

Other random names with "Ex" just from on top of my head (sdog managed to post while I was typing so some double...):
Experience
Extra
Expert (you need to be an expert to master this game ;) )
Just "Ex" (would become "Simutrans Ex")
Exemplary (this game is perfect!)
Exam (will you manage through the "exam"?)
Exotic
Extreme

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2016, 12:57:39 AM »
Rather sooner than later.

There's something you could do now: associate the new name with the old name for a while so search engines can index the change, in other words, use both the new and old names together for a month or two in topic titles and project descriptions, phrases etc, as a transition period.

Offline sdog

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2016, 01:06:39 AM »
There's something you could do now: associate the new name with the old name for a while [...]

The Simutrans that is experimental and formerly was named Experimental is for the time being experimentally named Ex<other>. It remains experimental in spirit while experimentally named other than Experimental.

This ought to do, Google is done for.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2016, 01:14:25 AM »
Any transitional period will have to be more than a month or two, as it will be more than that before the next release, and the current release will still bear the name "Experimental".

I am afraid that none of the alternative names suggested so far are as succinct or clear as "Simutrans-Extended" (it really does need to be a single word that follows the word "Simutrans" that precisely describes what differentiates it from Standard; I do not think that the word "extended" requires it to be a strict superset of Standard). ("Extra" is the one that comes the closest, but this is slightly less precise than "Extended").

I should also like views on whether to retain the hyphen.

Offline Junna

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2016, 02:10:48 AM »
Hyphen is good as far as I'm concerned. Simu-Ex for short.

Offline HaydenRead

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2016, 02:27:40 AM »
I definately think this is a good idea. The name Extended does give a much better idea of what it is, as opposed to Experimental. The idea of using Simutrans-Ex also sounds good.

Offline sdog

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2016, 02:31:46 AM »
Any transitional period will have to be more than a month or two, as it will be more than that before the next release, and the current release will still bear the name "Experimental".

I am afraid that none of the alternative names suggested so far are as succinct or clear as "Simutrans-Extended"
Well, then the effort writing it served its purpose. It could convince you that it is near the optimum. The present status is always a viable alternative. (The first rule I learned in my engineering design lectures*:)

Quote
I should also like views on whether to retain the hyphen.

Please keep the hyphen. In English it is facultative, and doesn't hurt. When it is missing Germans with more than the most basic education have the obsessive urge to write a comment, exclaiming "Deppen-Leerzeichen", until the realisation 'It's English anyway!' dawns. Being driven through the entire emotional spectrum all of the time is rather exhausting. /jk


Hyphen is good as far as I'm concerned. Simu-Ex for short.

That is a good point. James, are you going to introduce something of an informal abbreviation, that can be used on the forum? It is tiresome to write Simutrans-Extended every time.



*It is hard to believe, there are no equivalent expressions for 'Konstruktionslehre' or 'Methodisches Erfinden' in English?

Offline Sarlock

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2016, 04:54:01 AM »
Quote
James, are you going to introduce something of an informal abbreviation, that can be used on the forum? It is tiresome to write Simutrans-Extended every time.

Or even Sim-X.

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2016, 05:53:21 AM »
That is a good point. James, are you going to introduce something of an informal abbreviation, that can be used on the forum? It is tiresome to write Simutrans-Extended every time.

As Benevolent Marketing Dictator, I'd like to suggest "Simutrans-Extended" should be reduced to "S-Ex". Or, in case that's not clean enough, "SEx". ;-)

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: Change of name to &quot;Simutrans-Extended&quot;: sooner or later?
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2016, 07:57:34 AM »
Extended or extra sounds good. Use the -ex only as official abbreviation. Otherwise it sounds like that it used to be sumutrans but it is not any more, like ex-girlfried. Rename asap. Dash is good. I remember the dash fight in czecho(-)slovakia. :)

Offline Leartin at

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2016, 09:11:41 AM »
Simutrans Exodus. An Exodus is a big voyage/migration. While it does not quite fit the literal movement of trains, you could surely say that there was such an Exodus, starting from Simutrans, to end up with Simutrans Ex. It's also quite nice that Exodus happens to be the second book after Genesis in the bible, while Basic Simutrans was the 'creation', Simutrans Ex is moving it to a new place.

Simutrans Exalted. Since Simutrans exalted to a new level of existence. Quite metaphysical again.

Simutrans Expanded. Pretty much the same meaning as extended with the same problems, but keeps one more letter of the original Name.

Simutrans Extinct, Simutrans Exitus. If you ever stop working on it ;)


Simutrans Ex. Does it even matter what EX stands for? There are several almost fitting words, but none of them fits quite right. But a few of them together describe Simutrans Ex reasonably well. So just pick whichever words have something to offer, and claim "Ex" is short for all these.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2016, 02:17:27 PM »
Simutrans-X or Sim-X for me. Links to the current Simutrans-Ex(perimental) but catchier. The Ex/X doesn't need to stand for anything specific. And it's sufficiently developed to take a name other than experimental already.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2016, 02:31:20 PM »
I support "Extra" since it can be more fun but also more complex.  The sooner the better, regardless.

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: Change of name to &quot;Simutrans-Extended&quot;: sooner or later?
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2016, 05:43:30 PM »
Simutrans-XP ? :-)

Simutrans-X might confuse linux users, to think that it is version for use with X, the graphics system on linux (unix), while simutrans is for something else (windows, text console, wayland, whatever)

Offline killwater

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2016, 07:27:40 PM »
I support extended or expanded . Both sounds fine.

Offline scamps

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2016, 09:12:57 PM »
Simutrans-Expert, for you need to be an expert to understand all new features :-)
Simutrans-Excellent, requires explanation?
Simutrans-Exceptional, a name for development build
Simutrans: Expeditions, sounds like a video game name
Simutrans-new EXperience
-Ex, -Extra, -Expanded all sound good too

Offline sdog

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2016, 09:44:17 PM »
Simutrans-XP ? :-)

Simutrans-X might confuse linux users, to think that it is version for use with X, the graphics system on linux (unix), while simutrans is for something else (windows, text console, wayland, whatever)

I should not expect Linux users would be confused by this. At least not as much as Windows users would be by the -XP ending.

The more people write it the more I like Simutrans-X. However, due to the extreme abuse of 'X' in pop-culture related marketing, it is still rather lacking style. What is more, while I do not know James in real life, I've learned enough of his character over the years through correspondences and social media. I've never met anyone who would be further from X-games and the like than him. I do not expect I should ever meet someone who would surpass him with regard to this virtue.

I do hope that Simutrans-Extended, capitalised and adequately connected by a hyphen, will soon become the new designation for James' project.


ps.: For intra-forum shorthand use, I think his gracious Benevolence's suggestion is without equal. (At least not easy to get rid of if someone were to try.)

Offline HarrierST

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2016, 11:19:55 PM »
I support "Simutrans-Extended"

Offline isidoro

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2016, 11:59:11 PM »
"Extended" is the candidate name because what is now Simutrans-Experimental aims to extend the features of Simutrans-Standard in significant ways, and also because it begins with the same two letters as "Experimental". Can anyone suggest any other word beginning with "Ex" that is better than "Extended" here?

I'd like to clarify my point.  Since presently there are only two relevant versions of Simutrans, if we add an adjective to one of them, we must be careful about connotations.  If that adjective implies positive connotations, they logically imply negative (or at least a lack of positive) to the other.  And the same happens in the opposite case.  Thus, my petition about neutral adjectives.

Even the adjective "Standard" brings to my mind: normal, usual, of regular quality, etc.  What about "Simutrans Original".  But that brings to me connotations of: genuine, not a copy, etc.  And the problem is the opposite regarding Experimental.

"Extended" implies something that has been added (we suppose that for the good) to a product.  And that implies that the original product "lacks" those good extensions.  Which, by the way, is no longer the case, since Experimental was born from a version of Standard in the past.  Now, strictly speaking, present Experimental is no longer an extension of present Standard.  Standard has evolved and the new features aren't automatically imported to Experimental but "cherry picked".

Since I'm not a native English speaker, I have investigated about the meanings of those words because they can have different connotations in my language.  Unfortunately, some would say for the good, some would say for the bad, English doesn't have a central authority, a "Royal Academy of the Language", an utmost referee, and the task is more difficult than in other continental languages with central royal traditions.

I've chosen a British source and an American one (sorry for Canadians, Indians, Australians, South-Africans, etc.).  In Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, it says:
Quote
extended - adjective
1) Made larger; enlarged.  E.g. 'an extended kitchen and a new balcony'
2) Lasting longer than is usual or expected.  E.g. 'an extended period of time'

An American source, Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage:
Quote
extended Used as an adjective, extended often has the sense, "notably long; prolonged, lengthy":
  ..."went on an extended vacation"
  ..."even after extended exposure to mirrors" (psychology book)
  ..."had been to Europe on an extended trip"
This sense is both old and respectable, but two recent commentators [...] have expressed disapproval for it as, at best, a poor substitute for long. We see little basis for such an opinion, and the usage is, in any case, clearly standard in the examples above and many others in our files.

Now I'm puzzled and connotations can be bad for Experimental if the name is adopted: long, dull, eternal, ...

About alternative, I also like the one suggested here: Simutrans X.  It adds mystery and can be added so many words after it in the opening screen or web page: Simutrans X: eXtended, eXperimental, eXtraordinary, and so on...

Offline Lmallet

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2016, 12:55:17 AM »
I would suggest Simutrans+.  :)

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Change of name to "Simutrans-Extended": sooner or later?
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2016, 05:06:44 AM »
I would suggest Simutrans+.  :)

Then comes Simutrans++, Simutrans#… :)

Offline Vladki cz

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Re: Change of name to &quot;Simutrans-Extended&quot;: sooner or later?
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2016, 10:41:43 AM »
I like simutrans++ :)

What about simutrans-improved. It is not -ex, but the meaning is what it really is.

Or -expert, -extreme ?

Offline vzrenggamani

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Re: Change of name to &quot;Simutrans-Extended&quot;: sooner or later?
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2016, 10:46:42 AM »

Or -expert, -extreme ?


what is the meaning of extreme ? i think its too "WoW This forked version will be harder And have more chanlegge .. ( misstype ) .

i think " get a unique name but simple  "