Topic: r8163 lines list scrollbar slider in depots not working

[gauthier]

Simutrans rr8163 (120.2.2) for Linux 32 bits

Open a depot's window.
Click on the line field to show the lines'list
Try to click and drag the slider of the vertical scrollbar -> the slider doesn't move, the list doesn't scroll.

[prissi]

Seeing these bugs only after releases makes me questioning who actually is using the nightlies any more.

Fixed in r8169 hopefully. But there could be more GUI bugs.

[Ters]

I've been a bit of a coward myself, staying a few revision behind so that I don't lose lot of playing time to newly introduced bugs.

[gauthier]

Well ... I don't know how the code is and I don't want to blame any one here, but I feel like the developer(s) who bring modifications to the GUI code does not take the right time to test what he has done. If you are waiting for people to regularly download a nightly and test if everything goes well, without knowing what the developers did between that nithly and the previous one they used, you are going to be deceived.

I use nightlies only to see if a bug I just saw is already fixed or if a reported bug is told being fixed in that nightly.

[Ters]

It is a fact of life that the developer himself will never test the code good enough. That is why concepts like code reviews, automated testing (on several levels) and beta/nightly/early-access releases have been invented. Unfortunately, Simutrans has no automated test suites, and it is very difficult to make one the way the game is built. Without full time developers, code reviews are difficult as well, and only done for new developers or very big changes (at least occasionally).

[prissi]

The test games I do had not enough lines to make the scrollbars appear. The problem is, that some internal routines are a hack, and by doing things properly there might be side effects. (For instance, so far the focussing of elements, i.e. using buttons by keyboard was largely broken, and comboboxes were closed in many places just to be sure they close.)

I also highly doubt that automatied test of such things would be less complex than the actual code, and hence require tests of the tests ...

[Ters]

I also highly doubt that automatied test of such things would be less complex than the actual code, and hence require tests of the tests ...

The thing is, once the tests have been written, they will tell you when thing breaks later on. So complex, yes, but very valuable.

[gauthier]

Automated tests for GUIs are quite tedious. As a developer who hates GUIs, I won't blame you for not doing that lol 

Anyway, before releasing a version, developers can let themselves some days to freely play the game, it would be enough to see such bugs before the release.
 

[Ters]

The thing that probably complicated things here is that there was another bug already out that needed fixing. Since Simutrans lacks stable branches, that means that there is a choice between letting players struggle with a known bug and potentially introducing a new one. If the developers are to playtest for a few days, that could easily postpone the fix for a month.

[gauthier]

What is needed is a sufficiently stable release once, and then release every version after one or two days of playtesting. The point here is to spot bugs that are currently reported just after the release, to avoid this cycle of release > bugfix release > another bugfix release > etc ... Obtaining this "stable cycle" means letting players with bugs for a short period of time, but only once, that's the price.

[Ters]

While a day or two of playtesting would have uncovered this bug, it might not have been enough for what started this cycle. Simutrans have a lot of different playing styles. Some players may spend a lot of time in windows and with tools that the developers don't even remember exists.

And I've seen rather serious bugs slip through a far more elaborate testing regime at work the last few weeks. The last one even included an entire major new feature missing from the delivered product, and no one noticing for over a month!

[An_dz]

We could tell people here at the forum to download the nightly version two days before a release to let them find bugs, then if nobody says anything we release a stable version for everybody that don't follow the forum.

BTW: The XML version needs a bump for taking advantage of the 16 bit colours. Not sure where this is done.

[prissi]

You can't, you need to increase the entire savegame version.

[Dwachs]

@An_dz please increase savegame version in simversion.h to meet the needs of the 16bit change.