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Offline DrSuperGood

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Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« on: February 04, 2018, 09:57:20 PM »
A public way is a public way. When upgrading public owned public ways they instantly change ownership to the upgrading company. However when trying to upgrade other company owned public ways, the result of the company previously upgrading a public owned public way, the way is not upgraded and does not change ownership.

This is problematic since one might need to upgrade a public way to accommodate new convoys but cannot because someone who is not available or does not care owns the public way.

Either public ways should remain owned by the public play when upgraded (recommended) or one should be able to forcefully take them over as long as one pays and replaces them with a better way type.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 06:55:25 AM by DrSuperGood »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2018, 10:29:17 PM »
This is intended behaviour. In law (at least in England and Wales), a public right of way is distinct from the ownership of the land underlying the public right of way (the same is true of private rights of way, but they are not relevant for Simutrans).

The public's right over a public right of way is not to alter the substance or surface of the way, but simply to pass and repass. A public right of way is distinct from a state owned way (which may or may not be a public right of way: consider a state railway line or a state owned private road used to access government buildings, etc.).

In Simutrans-Extended, we start with roads being owned by some non-simulated entity and being able to be taken into ownership by players. That involves, among other costs, the cost of the player taking it into ownership buying the underlying land from whoever is presumed to have owned - the land purchase cost is explicitly included in the cost of upgrading the starting roads in this way, just as the cost of building on any land also includes the explicit cost of buying that land.

Once that land is bought, it and the way upon it are owned by the purchasing player, who has full domain over that owned land, subject to the right of the public to pass and repass over it and therefore subject to the duty to maintain upon that land a way suitable for the use of the public to pass and repass over it. The minimum standard of that way changes over time using the inter-city road type and is enforced at the point of renewing the way when it is worn out, by passage of vehicles, passage of time, or some combination of the two.

We can simulate state owned ways in Simutrans-Extended, and indeed do so, as ways owned by the public player - but in that case, no player can take them into ownership or do anything with them other than pass or repass over them. This was at one time the default for inter-city roads but was changed to the present arrangement to allow players to take the ways into ownership.

Remember that players invest significant sums of money into buying and upgrading public rights of way and are burdened with significant and potentially onerous liabilities in return for doing so. They are thus properly entitled to retain all of the rights of ownership (including the right to exact tolls from other players and private cars/horse carriages) for as long as they please.

Offline DrSuperGood

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2018, 06:28:38 AM »
At least allow players to downgrade public ways to the current city road type. I am not talking about ways slower or less able than the city way type, but the city way type which might be cheaper than other way types at the time which the player might have upgraded the way to for use. This simulates some on going liability without completely ripping the player off.

Additionally if a public way is part of a city the underlying nridge or elevated way should be taken ownership by the city, like is currently the case for the road. I do not know of cases where a commonly used by the public bridge is owned and maintained by a company but the road on it maintained by the council. Even more so the bridges in real life have some intelligence behind them with the ability to lobby towards their construction by public bodies rather than private companies having to make them because city building logic does not support that neither is it smart enough to make sensible bridges.

I would suggest that public rights of way that are the city road type, and only the city road type, can be mothballed to the public player. The process is not cheap with some, "legal fee" paid per km amount but represents realistically how companies can destroy hard-tied liabilities. Why should the government pay for the road? Well as it is in real life they pay for bank bail outs and the like, companies often get the government to pay for their liabilites.

Currently this is pretty much a mechanic built and designed to annoy players. It offers no advantage over one building the way to a place ones self, as at least then one can mothball or destroy the way as one chooses. The paths for public ways are often so indirect that one has to build the way ones self at least partly. It does not even offer gartuneed connection since one cannot force other companies to upgrade the way. If anything companies should be paid to take ownership of the ways the mechanic is so annoying/stupid.


Offline AP

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2018, 10:57:11 PM »
Additionally if a public way is part of a city the underlying nridge or elevated way should be taken ownership by the city, like is currently the case for the road. I do not know of cases where a commonly used by the public bridge is owned and maintained by a company but the road on it maintained by the council. Even more so the bridges in real life have some intelligence behind them with the ability to lobby towards their construction by public bodies rather than private companies having to make them because city building logic does not support that neither is it smart enough to make sensible bridges.
Swinford Toll Bridge in Oxforshire is an example of an important piece of public infrastructure which is privately owned - until the 1930s it carried the main A40 London to Fishguard road. It has its own act of parliament (which also prevents competing bridges being built for several miles in either direction). Tolls today are 5p per car (and they rather dislike it if you ask for a receipt!).


It's not the only bridge over the river Thames that operates on this model, either - Whitchurch Bridge near Pangbourne also does, and Clifton Hampden bridge used to as well, but was bought by the local authority after WW2. All 3 are major arterial roads as a look at a road atlas will show, they aren't trivialities.


The council wont buy Swinford bridge as it would cost more public money than the benefit would justify, and the owners run it at a profit.


Further afield, there is also the toll bridge at Whitney on Wye, and across the estuaries at Penmaenpool, and formerly the toll bridges at Pont Briwet and Porthmadoc Cob - both made free since 2000.

It simulates reality - and quite well. What we haven't got (yet) is the later nationalising of infrastructure. Often turnpikes and canals were bought out by railways to avoid political issues arising from competition, so ended up owning the assets so having the companies holding assets they no longer need, but can't dispose of, is somewhat realistic. Many pieces of infrastructure had their acts of parliaments written as though they should last forever - "eternal navigations" etc. see also the failed attempts to close the bluebell railway in the 50s- the operator was told they couldn't because the act of parliament for the line wouldn't let them.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 11:10:57 PM by AP »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2018, 11:22:24 PM »
At least allow players to downgrade public ways to the current city road type. I am not talking about ways slower or less able than the city way type, but the city way type which might be cheaper than other way types at the time which the player might have upgraded the way to for use. This simulates some on going liability without completely ripping the player off.

It would be inconsistent to use the city way type for this purpose (at least for roads not in a city), as the upgrading of roads that are public rights of way, not player owned and not in towns use the default inter-city road type of that era instead. One might have a system in which one could downgrade to the inter-city type out of towns and the city type in towns, but this is not without problems: the default inter-city type in the early years is a bridleway. Downgrading to this could prevent players (and private horse carriages) from using a road which they have become accustomed to using.

One might then prevent downgrading a public right of way to any way with a zero maximum axle load; but then what of players who make use of a public right of way owned by another player that was upgraded beyond the minimum specification that, when downgraded to the minimum specification, is impassable by the using player's vehicles? Is that really a desirable game mechanic? I should be grateful for feedback from a multitude of players on this specific point.

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Additionally if a public way is part of a city the underlying nridge or elevated way should be taken ownership by the city, like is currently the case for the road. I do not know of cases where a commonly used by the public bridge is owned and maintained by a company but the road on it maintained by the council. Even more so the bridges in real life have some intelligence behind them with the ability to lobby towards their construction by public bodies rather than private companies having to make them because city building logic does not support that neither is it smart enough to make sensible bridges.

I do not understand this - the game does not treat the ownership of the bridge and the surface of the road on the bridge differently: both are owned by the player.

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I would suggest that public rights of way that are the city road type, and only the city road type, can be mothballed to the public player. The process is not cheap with some, "legal fee" paid per km amount but represents realistically how companies can destroy hard-tied liabilities. Why should the government pay for the road? Well as it is in real life they pay for bank bail outs and the like, companies often get the government to pay for their liabilites.

I do not think that this justification makes sense when the company is solvent, unless the amount paid to the public player is equal to the maintenance that the player will save, in which case the feature would be of no use in any event. This is already done for insolvent companies, however: when companies are liquidated, the public rights of way are returned to unowned status rather than destroyed, and their maintenance continues.

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Currently this is pretty much a mechanic built and designed to annoy players. It offers no advantage over one building the way to a place ones self, as at least then one can mothball or destroy the way as one chooses. The paths for public ways are often so indirect that one has to build the way ones self at least partly. It does not even offer gartuneed connection since one cannot force other companies to upgrade the way. If anything companies should be paid to take ownership of the ways the mechanic is so annoying/stupid.

I do not understand this analysis. I believe that I have already explained the economic reasoning in another thread on which you had posted a similar complait, and I do not believe that you explained any particular fault with the analysis.

Upgrading a public right of way offers a significant advantage to the player over building a road from scratch: the player does not have to pay the forge cost. In return, the player must undertake the rightly onerous responsibilities associated with ownership of a way over which everyone has the legal right to pass unimpeded. A player thus has a free choice: upgrade the public right of way and incur the liabilities of doing so, but be spared the forge cost, or build a new road from scratch and pay the forge cost, but be spared the responsibilities of owning a public right of way.

Offline DrSuperGood

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2018, 03:24:34 AM »
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It would be inconsistent to use the city way type for this purpose (at least for roads not in a city), as the upgrading of roads that are public rights of way, not player owned and not in towns use the default inter-city road type of that era instead. One might have a system in which one could downgrade to the inter-city type out of towns and the city type in towns, but this is not without problems: the default inter-city type in the early years is a bridleway. Downgrading to this could prevent players (and private horse carriages) from using a road which they have become accustomed to using.
Which is no different from me shutting down one of the many public way bypass roads I have had to make to get around the feature. I could even shut down many of the roads I privately have made between towns, completely disconnecting the town and any player who might have been using it as they are not public roads.
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One might then prevent downgrading a public right of way to any way with a zero maximum axle load; but then what of players who make use of a public right of way owned by another player that was upgraded beyond the minimum specification that, when downgraded to the minimum specification, is impassable by the using player's vehicles? Is that really a desirable game mechanic? I should be grateful for feedback from a multitude of players on this specific point.
I see no problem with this mechanic. As it is, chances are if another player is using the road reasonably there is very good reason the owner should keep it operational to pick up all the toll.

Further more if the way type was returned back to public ownership, then the using player could buy rights to it and upgrade it. This would be effectively selling off the ownership rights to the road to another company, a feature that is very important in real life but impossible in Simutrans Extended at the moment.
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I do not understand this - the game does not treat the ownership of the bridge and the surface of the road on the bridge differently: both are owned by the player.
This is fine for major inter city roads where the whole thing is owned by the player. It is total nonsense for minor diversion bridges over rivers and such that the city was too stupid to build properly. In real life the concils have often brought such bridges, or even built the bridges in the first place after being lobied by industry, however in Simutrans companies have to make them since the concils are effectivly simple unthinking logic.

When a company is having to fix something the council logic messed up, they should not be punished for it by having to pay for it. Sure you could always ask the public player to fix it, but maybe you do not have control over the public player, you need it fixed fast, or the public player owner just does not care.
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I do not think that this justification makes sense when the company is solvent, unless the amount paid to the public player is equal to the maintenance that the player will save, in which case the feature would be of no use in any event. This is already done for insolvent companies, however: when companies are liquidated, the public rights of way are returned to unowned status rather than destroyed, and their maintenance continues.
I think you misunderstood what I was asking.

Currently one cannot return public ways to the concil. In real life one can, as has happened hundreds if not thousands of times. Sometimes the concils have brought the ways, other times the company who managed the ways went in solvent, other times they were likely given away to avoid them going unmaintained. In any case this is an important feature to prevent companies being bogged down having to maintain ways that are nothing but liabilites.

To do this I suggest a tool that allows you to give public way ownership to the concil, or back to no owner, or whatever you have it currently set to. The tool will only work if the way type is equal to the current city or inter city way type depending on what is appropiate. The tool is not free, there would be some quantity charged representing legal costs, possibly several years worth of maintainance. The tool does not allow one free access to higher quality ways, since those are not the city/inter city road type, limiting how much it could be abused. The tool does allow other companies to buy ownership over the way, should they find a need to as opposed to currently where another company might want to use a public way while the owner does not care and has effectivly mothballed it as best as he is allowed to.

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Upgrading a public right of way offers a significant advantage to the player over building a road from scratch: the player does not have to pay the forge cost.
Except they are often soo poorly routed the player has to fork out a lot to terraform and divert the public ways to be vaguely efficient.
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A player thus has a free choice: upgrade the public right of way and incur the liabilities of doing so, but be spared the forge cost, or build a new road from scratch and pay the forge cost, but be spared the responsibilities of owning a public right of way.
Well seeing how I need them upgraded and someone else owns them I often find myself building a newer faster more direct road anyway.
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Swinford Toll Bridge in Oxforshire is an example of an important piece of public infrastructure which is privately owned - until the 1930s it carried the main A40 London to Fishguard road. It has its own act of parliament (which also prevents competing bridges being built for several miles in either direction). Tolls today are 5p per car (and they rather dislike it if you ask for a receipt!).
So when can I charge all that annoying civilian traffic a toll who take my bridges that I was forced to build to bypass public ones that blocked my cannals? If all that civilian traffic gave a little toll when using your public rights of way or bridges then it would make a lot more sense than currently where one has to effectively give it to them for free.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2018, 11:46:14 AM »
Which is no different from me shutting down one of the many public way bypass roads I have had to make to get around the feature. I could even shut down many of the roads I privately have made between towns, completely disconnecting the town and any player who might have been using it as they are not public roads.

They are not quite the same, as players have a right to use a public right of way, whereas using another player's private way is by licence, not right.

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I see no problem with this mechanic. As it is, chances are if another player is using the road reasonably there is very good reason the owner should keep it operational to pick up all the toll.

Thank you for your feedback on this. I should be grateful for feedback from others on this point in particular.

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Further more if the way type was returned back to public ownership, then the using player could buy rights to it and upgrade it. This would be effectively selling off the ownership rights to the road to another company, a feature that is very important in real life but impossible in Simutrans Extended at the moment.

Selling infrastructure to other players is a feature that I have contemplated in the past, but have not thought of an effective UI for implementing this easily (as this requires an identification of each individual tile whose ownership is to be transferred and then agreement by both vendor and purchasor to the transfer of those specific tiles at a specific price). Can you think of a workable UI for this? Indeed, would you be interested in helping to code this feature?

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This is fine for major inter city roads where the whole thing is owned by the player. It is total nonsense for minor diversion bridges over rivers and such that the city was too stupid to build properly. In real life the concils have often brought such bridges, or even built the bridges in the first place after being lobied by industry, however in Simutrans companies have to make them since the concils are effectivly simple unthinking logic.

When a company is having to fix something the council logic messed up, they should not be punished for it by having to pay for it. Sure you could always ask the public player to fix it, but maybe you do not have control over the public player, you need it fixed fast, or the public player owner just does not care.I think you misunderstood what I was asking.

The ultimate problem is that there is no mechanism for building double height bridges starting on a single height downward slope, and that adding this would require adding a great deal of bridge graphics. I tried to modify the code to force towns to build tall bridges over navigable rivers, but this only works on flat rivers rather than rivers in the little valleys that they often produce at present.

I do not understand how separating the ownership of the surface of the road and the underlying bridge would help with this, however - is this what you meant?

Also, there is no easy way to distinguish between a "major inter-city road" part of which happens to be in a town and a road in a town that is not part of a "major inter-city road".

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Currently one cannot return public ways to the concil. In real life one can, as has happened hundreds if not thousands of times. Sometimes the concils have brought the ways, other times the company who managed the ways went in solvent, other times they were likely given away to avoid them going unmaintained. In any case this is an important feature to prevent companies being bogged down having to maintain ways that are nothing but liabilites.

I think that you misunderstand the history of road infrastructure. It is only in relatively recent times that roads have been built, owned and maintained by the nation state or a subdivision thereof such as a local council. In times past (including the 18th and much of the 19th century), roads outside towns were public rights of way accross private land which the landowners had a duty to maintain. Turnpike trusts were set up in respect of some roads before they were eventually taken into state control by degrees over the course of many years.

In Simutrans-Extended, a road that has the "unowned" status outside a town is not owned by some local authority: it is owned by a local private landowner. When the player upgrades that road, the player buys the land and with it the responsibility of maintaining the road.

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To do this I suggest a tool that allows you to give public way ownership to the concil, or back to no owner, or whatever you have it currently set to. The tool will only work if the way type is equal to the current city or inter city way type depending on what is appropiate. The tool is not free, there would be some quantity charged representing legal costs, possibly several years worth of maintainance. The tool does not allow one free access to higher quality ways, since those are not the city/inter city road type, limiting how much it could be abused. The tool does allow other companies to buy ownership over the way, should they find a need to as opposed to currently where another company might want to use a public way while the owner does not care and has effectivly mothballed it as best as he is allowed to.

There is already (from Standard) a "make public" tool, which, in Extended, also works with ways as well as stops: but this is available only to the public player as it is otherwise an exploit: players can build ways and then get out of the maintenance cost of them whilst still using them. Charging a fee based on a few years' maintenance (which this tool already does) is not sufficient, as, if the player uses the way for longer than that number of years, the player has profited from the transfer and it is still an exploit.

The tool as it currently works cycles between public player ownership and no ownership for ways and stops. In principle, this might be able to be made to work for players other than the public player only on ways and in those cases only on public rights of way that are at the current default waytype for the city or inter-city road as is currently the default (unless the current default has a zero maximum weight or zero maximum speed, in which case the closest available way that has a maximum weight and speed of > 0 would be chosen instead). In such a case, would you imagine the way being transferred to the public player (in which case, players would continue to be able to use it, but no longer modify or take ownership of it), or "unowned/privately owned", in which case, future players would be able to take ownership of it?

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Except they are often soo poorly routed the player has to fork out a lot to terraform and divert the public ways to be vaguely efficient.

They are routed with the same algorithm as used in Standard; but  that is just part of the choice: either upgrade cheaply the existing meandering roads that have grown up over centuries of long use, and pay their maintenance, or pay more to build one's own more direct route over which one has complete control.

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Well seeing how I need them upgraded and someone else owns them I often find myself building a newer faster more direct road anyway.So when can I charge all that annoying civilian traffic a toll who take my bridges that I was forced to build to bypass public ones that blocked my cannals? If all that civilian traffic gave a little toll when using your public rights of way or bridges then it would make a lot more sense than currently where one has to effectively give it to them for free.

The private cars should already provide a toll: this is set in the private_car_toll_per_km setting in simuconf.tab. The current pakset setting for this toll is 1.

Offline AP

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2018, 06:43:27 PM »
Regarding tolls, I have wondered whether there might be a case for allowing players to set tolls themseves (perhaps via a tollgate building, which you pay to pass). This would allow tolls to be calibrated to suit the route - a heavily engineered route might be more costly, for example. Also perhaps allowing traffic to make decisions based on cost as well as time, in the future.


The ultimate problem is that there is no mechanism for building double height bridges starting on a single height downward slope, and that adding this would require adding a great deal of bridge graphics. I tried to modify the code to force towns to build tall bridges over navigable rivers, but this only works on flat rivers rather than rivers in the little valleys that they often produce at present.

  This mechanism has been requested (by me!) as part of the discussion of "tall bridges" etc over in the Standard forum, since the problem is common with Standard. Whether anyone on that side moves forward with resolving the bridgebuilding issues, remains to be seen.  Essentially, when doubleheightslopes came in, bridges were a bit of an afterthought. But hey, we got doubleheight slopes, which are great.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2018, 06:53:29 PM »
Regarding tolls, I have wondered whether there might be a case for allowing players to set tolls themseves (perhaps via a tollgate building, which you pay to pass). This would allow tolls to be calibrated to suit the route - a heavily engineered route might be more costly, for example. Also perhaps allowing traffic to make decisions based on cost as well as time, in the future.

Using a toll gate building would be unnecessarily complex and require unnecessary and fundamental changes to the way in which revenues are apportioned. The current system is closely modelled on the system for apportioning revenues used by the Railway Clearing House in the 19th and early 20th centuries: the revenues of player convoys are apportioned between the owners of the ways over which it has travelled during its journey in proportion to the extent that it has travelled on one rather than another way. There is no fixed toll, except for private cars using player roads, which is a secondary case.

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This mechanism has been requested (by me!) as part of the discussion of "tall bridges" etc over in the Standard forum, since the problem is common with Standard. Whether anyone on that side moves forward with resolving the bridgebuilding issues, remains to be seen.  Essentially, when doubleheightslopes came in, bridges were a bit of an afterthought. But hey, we got doubleheight slopes, which are great.

It would be useful if that were to be implemented - one of the difficulties remains the need for every single bridge in every single pakset to have new slope graphics defined, I believe, which would be a gargantuan undertaking.

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2018, 07:32:44 PM »
A cool feature would be to be able to sell off infrastructure, both stations and ways. A "Sell infrastructure" window could handle that, and I think the price should be the "market price", which is set by the game. In other words, it should gain more money to the player selling it, than if he deleted everything, and the player buying should get everything slightly cheaper than if he would have to build it himself. Possible terraforming is difficult, though, since that might have been very expensive. One way could be if the terraform cost is stored with the tile somehow, and then added up.
Now GUI-wise:
Selections on the map - each tile which is about to be sold could be marked yellow, in the same way things are marked now. Clicking on a tile will mark everything on it for sale. Dragging, much like the climate tool works, would select all sellable tiles within the catchement area, including roads, stations, signs, depots etc.
Using the routefinder - Click on a waytile, then click on another and the entire route between the two clicks will be marked yellow.

All tiles and whats on them should also be visible in a list to those that prefer to check it of that way. If the information is stored somewhere, we could with the pathfinder even in the GUI mark which cities will connect with this infrastructure, or which stations etc.
This could even be extended to include lines, so the player selling could click on the lines that run the stretches to be sold, and all vehicles will be marked to be sold (marked yellow?) for the buying player to buy, including the line getting automatically moved to the new player upon sale.

The player selling would do all this initially, mark which player to sell to, and click "send proposition"

Player buying would get a popup window message or similar, where everything can be inspected, and either click "buy" or "change", do his adjustments in similar fashion, and send back, this could be sent back and fourth until both agree and everything is sold.


But, that was just a sidetrack comment!
Regarding public ways, I think that you should not be able to downgrade them. Instead, i think the issue, as well as other issues, can be solved like this:
Give the player the ability to stop pay maintenance on the roads. It could be done by using the shift-DELETE tool (as oposed to the shift-mothball tool), where the player marks that it doesnt pay any maintenance to the road whatsoever. The road will degenerate quite a bit faster into mothballed roadtype.
Now, to solve DrSupergoods other issue, one could say that, if you let the road degenerate to beyond an acceptable niveau, which would be the niveau where the road automatically gets upgraded (is it 14%?), the government, ie public player, will take over ownership of the road again.
Even, it would be nice with some minimi standards set by the government, so that the player cannot "upgrade" to a bade waytype than exists already. Those minimi could be like, minimum the median values for weight and speed of all curently existing vehicles.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2018, 11:37:17 PM »
The ability to sell ways to another player would be a very interesting feature, and all of the hard work would be in the UI - would you be interested in implementing this? The sale price would have to take into account the land value, of course.

As to the ability to refuse to maintain public ways, this suggestion has a number of problems: firstly, it does not make economic sense for a person who has a legal liability to maintain a public right of way to be able to get out of it by just refusing to do it: this would amount to an exploit if implemented (especially if players were allowed to build very expensive roads and then immediately opt out of maintaining them, effectively getting those roads maintenance free forever). Secondly, in reality, any failure to carry out a programme of regular maintenance and inspection would more or less immediately render a road unsafe because of the possibility of a major defect emerging. Thirdly, the suggested mechanism for this would be inconsistent with the way in which that tool works usually, and would thus be confusing to players.

I am more minded to favour Dr. Supergood's more recent suggestion of allowing downgrading to the current default inter-city type, so long as the current default inter-city type is not a bridleway (i.e. any road with a 0 maximum speed and/or weight), but that is subject to the reservation that this might cause problems for players who have grown accustomed to using that road in its better than default state. I should be very interested in your views and those of others on that specific point before deciding whether to implement this.

Offline Ves

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2018, 12:13:49 AM »
Just the very reason you describe, that other players have become acustomed with the upgraded waytype, makes me think it is a bad idea to allow degrade them in any way! It would not make sense in the real life at all to downgrade public transportation routes in this way. Only thing I have seen is when they reclassify speed limits, where some speeds get raized and some gets lowered, but this is not to private actors descrition, but a decision from authorities.
As a transport operator, you would have no guarantee that your heavy invested vehicles will be usable, if they travel on other players public road.

What would be useful is another way to pull back from a decision to take responsibility of a public way.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2018, 12:18:23 AM »
What would be useful is another way to pull back from a decision to take responsibility of a public way.

The trouble is that this would end up amounting to an exploit - players could always (and would never have reason to do other than) immediately opt out of maintaining the way, and have the most expensive roads entirely maintenance free in perpetuity.

Offline Ves

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2018, 01:06:26 AM »
Not if the road gets degraded fast and is taken over by the public player? Then he has to pay a fee to use the road.

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2018, 02:10:06 PM »
Not if the road gets degraded fast and is taken over by the public player? Then he has to pay a fee to use the road.

No - by default, the public player does not charge a toll for using its roads; although this can be disabled in simuconf.tab, I prefer not to disable it, as it is more realistic that people do not pay a per km toll for all state owned roads that they use.

Offline Ves

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2018, 06:52:11 PM »
ah ok I didnt know that!

One way to deal with it though:
In Denmark, there is the Storebæltsbroen, a bridge, which was the longest bridge in the world for a moment. It was promised by the government that the fee to pass the bridge would get removed once the bridge has been paid off.
Would such a situation work in Simutrans?
Kind of that the waytile stores what the rebuy cost is when the public player takes over (land tile cost + waytilecost), and then all players have pay the normal fee when their vehicles travel over the tile, but only until the rebuy cost has been covered. Then its free to pass again.

Offline AP

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2018, 07:18:56 PM »
The trouble is that this would end up amounting to an exploit - players could always (and would never have reason to do other than) immediately opt out of maintaining the way, and have the most expensive roads entirely maintenance free in perpetuity.

I agree we must avoid this.

I think there may well be a case for a "nationalisation mechanism",  at some point,  but I don't necessarily think it should be player driven on demand.  And I imagine it's not high up a coding priority list.

It also gets complicated because in real life infrastructure is or was controlled by lots of discrete companies,  whilst in game players build a single empire. Possibly when your "raising capital"  system comes into being that may offer insight into a way forward,  since it's essentially the same problem in reverse.

What I think we should avoid is breaking or sabotaging a developed function of the game which is working as intended, just because the next function isn't sorted yet.

There are uk precedents as well for "pay tolls until the loan is paid for" as a model, usually plus profit margin for the investors.

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Re: Cannot upgrade other company public way.
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2018, 09:32:12 PM »
Thank you both for your feedback. Firstly, I should note that there is already a (very basic)  nationalisation mechanism: there is a tool that the public player can use  to nationalise ways or stops, one stop or one tile of way at a time. It is entirely manual, but it is effective in certain circumstances.

Secondly, the mechanism suggested by Ves, while interesting, is somewhat convoluted, and does not really reflect reality: the bridge example given is of a large and very expensive piece of infrastructure being built by the state, which then charges tolls until the cost is paid off. This is very different to a player deciding at will to pass the cost onto the state of any piece of infrastructure.