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Offline jamespetts gb

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Helpfulness points?
« on: April 20, 2018, 07:26:09 PM »
The rather helpful helpfulness points seem no longer to be working. This is rather a pity, I think, as I have been systematically giving one helpfulness point per bug report that results in a fix for many years. Might some consideration be given to reinstating this feature?

Offline An_dz

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2018, 08:14:01 PM »
We have chosen to disable this feature in favour of the likes.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2018, 09:38:37 PM »
That is a shame. One does not "like" a bug report per se, as it is not a likeable thing that there is a bug, but it is helpful that it has been reported, so the distinction served purpose.

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2018, 09:43:59 PM »
One does not "like" a bug report per se
Just because of this, you deserve a 1x <3 .

If one has to blame, I proposed removing it because the Helpfulness feature overlapped the Like feature.

To make everyone happy: @An_dz or Isaac, is it possible to change the string in the Like button to "+1 helpful" and the Unlike to "-1 helpful" or whatever that fits better?

Offline An_dz

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2018, 10:58:38 PM »
If one has to blame, I proposed removing it because the Helpfulness feature overlapped the Like feature.
As always, it's Igor's fault ;D

To make everyone happy: @An_dz or Isaac, is it possible to change the string in the Like button to "+1 helpful" and the Unlike to "-1 helpful" or whatever that fits better?
Sure, I was already secretly working on that.

Offline An_dz

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2018, 05:43:12 PM »
What do you think about it now?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2018, 05:48:27 PM »
Is there not some utility in retaining the former distinction between liking a post itself and marking a person's contribution as helpful? In other words, would it not make more sense to record the number of likes on each individual post, but tally only the (separate) helpfulness points (hopefully, the record of the old ones still exist) per person and thus not keep a (public) log of the number of total post likes per person?

Offline An_dz

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2018, 07:19:15 PM »
Is there not some utility in retaining the former distinction between liking a post itself and marking a person's contribution as helpful?

I don't know, aren't contributions in form of a post anyway? People post about updates in the paksets, bug reports, new code, etc.

In other words, would it not make more sense to record the number of likes on each individual post, but tally only the (separate) helpfulness points (hopefully, the record of the old ones still exist) per person and thus not keep a (public) log of the number of total post likes per person?
Not sure I understood completely, but would the problem be that the "likes" are public? Do you want to thank someone but without that person knowing? Or just not all the others?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2018, 07:24:14 PM »
The idea is that helpfulness points are tied to a person, whereas likes are tied to a post. Thus, one would see a total of the number of helpfulness points in a person's profile, and a total of the number of likes that a particular post has.

(There is no particular harm in people knowing how many likes that a person's posts have except that people might confuse this with the helpfulness score).

Offline An_dz

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2018, 10:41:21 PM »
except that people might confuse this with the helpfulness score
That's why we decided to remove it, because the features overlap.

I can see your point but I'm still not sure. It's not hard to bring helpfulness back but just think it's weird to have two extremely similar features.

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2018, 10:46:05 PM »
[...] one would see a total of the number of helpfulness points in a person's profile, and a total of the number of likes that a particular post has.
For the time being:
  • "Show thanks notification": click on it to open a pop-up showing the most recent "thanks" for your posts and overall.
  • "Thanks stats" (shortcut): this shows pretty much everything forum-wide, per post, per topic etc. Click on "Most thanked member", you will be surprised.
Both can be found on the forum header.

The only missing feature would be being able to see the points in your or one's profile page, I believe that is the feature that you are missing. Most of the rest was just overlapping features.

EDIT:


I loved the "Thanks". <3


EDIT2:

As always, it's Igor's fault ;D
(You thanked this)
Now I love it no more. :<
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 11:00:16 PM by IgorEliezer »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2018, 10:06:04 PM »
I wonder whether we could at least merge the existing helpfulness statistics into the thanks statistics? I have spent many years systematically rating as "helpful" everyone who posted a bug report that led to a fix, and I should hate for all those data to be gone forever.

Offline An_dz

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2018, 12:38:55 AM »
Hum, I guess this is not possible at least not without messing with the DB, which is dangerous. I think the most sensible option would be to restore the helpfulness points. I think Igor and Isaac have nothing against it?

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2018, 02:09:17 AM »
I think Igor and Isaac have nothing against it?
Nope.

Hypothetically, what if we remove the thank system in favor the helpfulness system and improve it?

Offline An_dz

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2018, 02:54:34 AM »
These are the options:

  • We go back to what we had before where you have both helpfulness and Thanks separated.
  • "Likes" plugin remain. Helpfulness come back. And when someone "Thanks" a post it also adds to helpfulness.
  • "Likes" plugin go out. I make a replacement of the "Like" button in every post to make it as easy to send helpfulness as it's to "Thank" now. But we lose the ability to see how many people "Thanked" a single post/thread.
  • "Likes" plugin go out. And we go back to old times where helpfulness is only a link under the profile pic.

Offline Leartin

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2018, 04:52:12 AM »
These are the options: [...]
I disagree. There is still the option to keep likes and discard helpfulness, just as it is right now. Losing some data is an arguement against that option, but the same would go for "Likes plugin go out" - either both are options, or neither are.

Also, it does not seem like there is much of an arguement for the helpfulness system being better than the likes system, it's more about loss of data. So wouldn't it be best to keep the data without any functionality, perhaps in the thanks-statistic as an additional rider next to "thanks given" and "thanks received" as "helpfulness (legacy)". Short explaination of what the feature once was, that it since got replaced by the thanks-system, and of course the static helpfulness count. No loss of data, but also no overlapping features.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2018, 09:29:00 AM »
Also, it does not seem like there is much of an arguement for the helpfulness system being better than the likes system, it's more about loss of data. So wouldn't it be best to keep the data without any functionality, perhaps in the thanks-statistic as an additional rider next to "thanks given" and "thanks received" as "helpfulness (legacy)". Short explaination of what the feature once was, that it since got replaced by the thanks-system, and of course the static helpfulness count. No loss of data, but also no overlapping features.

It is not so much that helpfulness is better than likes, but that they serve different functions. A count of the number of posts of a person's that have been liked means something different to the count of the number of times that that person has been rated as "helpful". One might "like" a post praising some aspect of Simutrans, but one might rate as "helpful" a bug report (even though one would not like it).

As to historical data, although we are now calling "likes" "thanks", all the existing statistics come from a time when they were called "like", and thus must be construed against that background.

Offline Leartin

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2018, 12:23:22 PM »
A count of the number of posts of a person's that have been liked means something different to the count of the number of times that that person has been rated as "helpful". One might "like" a post praising some aspect of Simutrans, but one might rate as "helpful" a bug report (even though one would not like it).

I, for one, would still 'like' the bug report. I'd like that someone made me aware of it, even if I dislike the bug that was reported. I can't think of any situation in which a forum user could be helpful without writing a likeable post, as you can always like that it was helpful. Now, obviously, you see a destinction. But even if you were objectively right, unless the forum users use it with that destinction in mind, the numbers wouldn't mean what you think they mean. Before there was a 'like'-system, if you wanted to 'like' a post, closest you got was marking as helpful, so that's what you would have done - okay, maybe not you, but others. Likewise, after 'likes' were introduced, many people would just 'like' a post they liked for being helpful, without actually marking the user as helpful. That's the overlap.

Calling it 'likes' or 'thanks' or '<3' doesn't do anything to it, either, if it's the only system there is. The general idea, marking posts you appriciate, wouldn't change. If the 'likes' became a facebook-esque 'react'-system, where you could choose between "like", "thanks", "wow" and "I agree", it would still apply since it's one system, and the same person who would use "I agree" then would have used "like" before. (It works because all are positive. If one was "this makes me angry", obviously it falls apart).

Offline An_dz

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2018, 03:42:51 PM »
I disagree. There is still the option to keep likes and discard helpfulness, just as it is right now.
Woops, forgot that. ;D

For now I re-enabled helpful from showing, but you can't add more.

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2018, 07:31:03 PM »
I disabled it again, but now the helpfulness points are being summed with the Thanks.

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2018, 08:12:20 PM »
I disabled it again, but now the helpfulness points are being summed with the Thanks.
Hey, bamboozled again. :P

Offline isidoro

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2018, 11:52:00 PM »
I don't know if it is expected behavior or a bug, but in this post:
https://forum.simutrans.com/index.php/topic,18179.msg172821.html#msg172821
if you click in the number just right to the heart, it seems that two votes come from the same user.

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2018, 12:40:08 AM »
I don't know if it is expected behavior or a bug
It's a bug.

I could use the "Remove duplicate like"s tool from the admin panel, but firstly I'd like to hear from An_dz if he has changed something in the code that I might end up screwing up. :)

Offline An_dz

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2018, 01:16:11 AM »
The only code I changed was for the display, it's safe to run the admin option.

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Re: Helpfulness points?
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2018, 01:56:54 AM »
Done. The dupe point is gone. :D