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Should the simutrans project accept donations?

Started by prissi, August 22, 2008, 09:06:16 AM

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prissi

Prior to the recent server move there was a lot discussion on donations. Most of the people were against allowing donations, to avoid bringing money into our hobby. However, this view might be very culturally biased, as aparently there is no such barrier for US people. (At least according to comments found here about a project that recieved 5000$ donations without asking for them.)

I disabled donations for simutrans on sourceforge, because I would be afraid of what to do with the money honestly. I do as much as I can spare one simutrans anyway, and money would not change this. Also then money would make me (or any other guy who get it) put into the managing situation and say you get it and you don't. (Thus I am aparently like the guy in the blog who got the money.)

However, more recently OpenTTD did a fundraiser for a dedicated server and within 22h they recieved more than €620 (or roughly $1000). (Although they have the expertise to set up a server which compiles nightlies and so on in one person.)

Therefore, and given our "diversification" of our infrastructure, I admid I may have underestimated the power community. Therefore, please contribute your opinion in this poll.

vilvoh

#1
Several important questions:

  • Do we have a critical mass of users to get enough money? Perhaps we do a fundraise and we only get 100$
  • Who and how will manage those funds? I'm afraid there would be a lot people that do not want such a responsability.
  • Do we have projects important enough to contemplate the possibility of a fund raise? From my point of view, the most important project is the forum server that supports the rest of services the community can offer (translator, addons, maps, subdomains, wiki, etc...) Other thing is that we decide to hire a programmer for the multiplayer (as they did in Globulation) It's just an idea, I'm not suggesting it.

Don't get me wrong. I don't have any problem to donate 5 or 10 euros (which would the double in dollars) but money almost always means responsability. It also means this is goes serious..

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

Combuijs

Hmm, difficult.

I feel the new forum/site is seriously hampered by its limitations (that's what you get when you are spoiled!). Don't get me wrong here, I appreciate all the effort that is gone into the new forum after we had to leave the old one behind. But the old one was better (nostalgia takes over here :D).

So, if we could raise funds to obtain a dedicated server, that would be great.

On the other hand, Vilvoh has a point. If not enough money is raised, what are we going to do with it? As we have to maintain such a dedicated server, do we need to raise money every year? Is there someone who wants to be the financial executive (and do we trust him enough?).

As for hiring programmers, I don't think that's a good idea. A lot of programming effort has been put in Simutrans, and all of it was done willingly and free (and much appreciated!!!). I feel that should stay this way.

So, I think a hesitative yes to fundraising for now and only for obtaining and maintaining a dedicated server.
Bob Marley: No woman, no cry

Programmer: No user, no bugs



vilvoh

Quote from: Combuijs on August 22, 2008, 10:29:29 AM
As for hiring programmers, I don't think that's a good idea.....

Well, I was suggesting not to hire a programmer. I just told what others have done in similar situations.

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

yoshi

Donations shouldn't be "paid" for the time or efforts of contributers. But assuming that it's used for the payment neccessary to maintain the comunity (for instance, web server costs), there wouldn's be any problem.

jbode

I see ...

fundraising might be good to avoid such a server loss (with all the side-effects we see now). I see the main problem in the transfer between the countries, as the banking system will charge more than the "normal" donated amount. I voted "only for a specific project" --> means server/infrastructure.

So I'm pro sponsoring the server costs, but not happy about sponsoring the international financial system so much.


Jörg

Spike

#6
I think money will bring more troubles than benefits. There will be questions like "Who keeps the money?", "Who decides what will be done with the money?" ... and I fear the day when money is not used to pay a service, but to pay people, like graphics artists for their work, or programmers - this would much feel like betrayal to all those who gave their work for free.

But if we really have a problem that cannot be solved in any other way but by money, then I'll agree to fund raising. That we have a new server for free now, in my opinion supports the point that we do not need money, but support with services. And that we've got and will get.

Colin

#7
My God!! You people are unbelievable.

I have been suggesting this for months.(for server upkeep) I've been shouted at, sneered at, and generally told NO, it's unacceptable and would never be countenanced, Now Prissi suggests it and suddenly it's open for discussion and, of all things, a vote.

Well I would have voted yes to keep Isaac's server running, but now we've gone to all the trouble of moving the forum to another server, what's the point? Now I agree with Hajo and I'll vote no.
I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

Thought for the day

When you are up to your backside in alligators, it is difficult to remind yourself that your initial objective was to drain the swamp.

vilvoh

#8
Well...things and opinions can change, can't they? I think we all gave our opinion in private. We discussed pros and cons of all options we could think of (banners, adsense, etc..) And the conclusion was the one we all know (If there's no more remedy, no problem but better If we can avoid it)

See it from this point of view. Thanks to your insistence, now everybody can give his opinion in public, although the different views may have not changed. Perhaps, the poll result will be what you want..The important thing is to have different opinions and enough margin to discuss them. The money option was, is and will be always there, other thing is that you get enough support to carry it out. And for that you must try to convince the rest with arguments. We're are lucky to have you with us. Now we have a Benevolent Dictator and his opposite, the Angry Dissident.... ;)

I think we should ask if we're a community "mature" enough to get to that point. I'm not refering to ages, obviously. Do we have enough compromised users? Some of the most experienced users have left us (Raven, shunter, fagonella and many other I don't know, I guess) Do we have enough reliable members to manage important issues like money management? Does exist a hard core of community members to support the project in case things go wrong?

Imaging the project gets stuck, because any reason (no server for forum, no more programmers, no project manager, license change...) Who will keep the "esence" of the project? who will keep it alive? who's really interested in contribute with any thing (translations, help support, painting and modeling objects, coding new features, creating tools and services for the community) more than just play and download Simtrans stuff? IMHO, this is the difference between other communities, like OTTD one, and us. I know this community is relatively young. That's why we must try to get a critical mass of users with enough compromise with the project. At this point, we can be sure that the answer to a help call will be at least not bad. I repeat that If we have to help economically, there's no problem. But I think it's no sense to try something if you are not at least 60% sure you will get it and furthermore If you don't have a B plan.

I think that when we have a good answer to all these and other questions, we can talk seriously about money.


Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

Joker

#9
No offence to everyone else, but Colin has a very valid point. There were a few that offered to help in financing server costs. But one must remember that ultimately it was Isaac that needed to make that final call when it came down to it. We were then given another means to keep things going. Hellmade offered and we all agreed that that was the way to go.

To even start talking money now is a slap in the face to those who offered it earlier and were told " No thank you". Not to mention that IMHO, if financial aid is required to run the server that is one thing, and something that I would expect Hellmade would be the one to put forth that request. Consider the fact now its Hellmade's server.

I have not been paid for the time and effort for what I have contributed to Simutrans and would not expect to be. So no I would not pay for Simutrans in that manner. Again Server I would, but that's it.

That being said, if someone wanted to donate to the cost of the server there are many ways to it can be managed. The simplest way would be to have a monthly tally of Server monthly cost and how much has been "donated" up to date. I have seen it on many other Forums I am a member of. It works well in my opinion. But at this point what we think should be done has no baring. the Future of this forum lies in the hands of Hellmade at this present time. Or until some else steps up and has a better solution. BUT...Until then money should not be a topic until it is request by the one who holds the key to the Forum.

Oh and another thing... How fair would it be to donate to one part of the Community and not another, less we forget our German counter parts and their forum. What... they not part of this as well. Or even the Japanese...heck everyone who contributes from where ever they might be. Seems to me that the money unless for the sole purpose of maintaining this forum....is a bad idea.

Again this just my opinion and view of it. Take it as you will. No offence is meant.

Joker
PS....I vote no.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall.

PatrickN

I've seen that the creator of YS Flight (the game for which I've been making addons the last 2 years) sells game-related screensavers for a small fee.  I doubt he sells very many of them.

If money is collected, either donations or payment for goods or services, and there is a surplus, I would suggest donating the surplus to a non-controversial charity. Planting tulips at a retirement home for little old ladies who spent their life taking care of orphans and puppy dogs, for example.  Good feelings would rise as Simutrans and the world benefit. :)

My expectation is that income would decrease to nothing within 6 months anyway, so I voted with Joker.

Painter, in and out of retirement.

IgorEliezer

#11
Q: Should the Simutrans project accept donations?

A: Not yet.

Why?

Firstly, this was discussed recently and we decided for Hellmade's offer just a month ago. Because of it, IMHO, discussing this issue again it's a bit "uncomfortable" now.  :-\

Secondly, once we decided to go here, we need to get used to this new home firstly, for later we decide if we need something more or special.

Thirdly, Simutrans community has the same profile and organization as OTTD's? I don't know. I think we are not enough organized to manage money for awhile.

Well, for me, donations must be only for server maintenance (I said once I would not mind if I donate some money, IIRC); and our works and activities must be free from money because we are here just for fun and hobby.

Server maintenance has a fixed cost, then I won't worry so much about money's destinations. But about our works... I would.

In short, let us reserve this discussion for later, at least two months or more.

prissi

#12
Doing the poll was not because I suggest that we should accept donations. During the discussion beforehand the main consent (with the few people involved) was to avoid donations. Such was (and is) my personal option. However, reading the above mentioned blog and seeing the way the OpenTTD community handled stuff, I was wondering, if I am wrong because of cultural bias or whatever. I do not want to be a dictator, and thus I felt the need to listen to the community.

This might be crucial to the project, and I am not 100% sure anymore. Therefore, I wanted to give the community a chance to express their opinion. If somebody feeled slapped, I apologize. As said before, I would be afraid to handle simutrans "earned" money; but if somebody else would do it, and the vote would favour donations ... And I want to clarify the issue without pressure.

Ok, these are my motivations. I apologize to Isaac, or anybody else who might feel like mistreated by me. I was not my intentions, as they certainly know.

Joker

Sorry Prissi if I was a bit rude in my post above I was just a little irrotated and tired. Did not mean to be mean sorry.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall.

VS

Vilvoh pointed out one important factor, community size/maturity. I believe I can compare - and think the current group of people around Simutrans is not enough in that sense. Not just because we aren't that numerous, but also the social climate - the way we are (un) organized - is rather incompatible with economical matters and relations.

Carte blanche donations in the "like the game? support us" style - no. Fundraisers for specific projects, generally agreed on - maybe. I voted accordingly, but now after reading more responses I doubt it would ever come that far.

Another thing, the times when the old forum went down, or now, showed that in our little Simutrans world the "rescue" is rather an act of individual than effort of the community (so far).

All things considered, money mostly doesn't have place here. Majority of the project consumes just time, and we (contributors) give that for free. The only part where we really have to keep contact with $$$-driven reality is our web infrastructure. When that falls apart, the "game is over"...

My projects... Tools for messing with Simutrans graphics. Graphic archive - templates and some other stuff for painters. Development logs for most recent information on what is going on. And of course pak128!

vilvoh

#15
Completly agree with you, VS. The forum incident has shown us that the project is more fragile than we thought it was. At this point, we should see have a look at other projects, how they are managed and how are their communities organized to keep them alive. It doesn't mean that we'll not have problems in the future, but at least we will know who must do what and why.

BTW, it's a quite paradoxical situation, as VS has said. The project is OS and free, so you don't have to pay for playing with it. It just consumes free time. But the support you give in your free time needs money to be mantained. Therefore, you need the money to continue with the project....well, stuff happens... :-\

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

Colin

Hi Joker,

Thanks for your reply, at least you understood what I was getting at.

The main reason for my suggesting donations in the very first instance was because, simply and solely, Isaac, through no fault of his own, could not afford the running costs of maintaining the server. I wanted, by all, or any means, to keep the Simutrans Forum alive. This problem has been resolved in a different way. There now seems to be no reason to discuss donations. Don't get me wrong, if Hellmade suddenly finds it difficult to maintain his server, financially, I will be the first to put my hand up.
I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

Thought for the day

When you are up to your backside in alligators, it is difficult to remind yourself that your initial objective was to drain the swamp.

vilvoh

#17
Well, this could be a reflect of our disorganization as a community. Which was a discarded solution in the past, it's now been discussed almost as the only way to keep the project alive.

P.S: Colin, I'm curious. Why do you always use bold when you post in "important" topics?

Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

Colin

#18
Quote from: vilvoh on August 24, 2008, 12:20:12 AM
P.S: Colin, I'm curious. Why do you always use bold when you post in "important" topics?

Co's I like shouting. lol.

No, really I just think that sometimes bold looks better, and I can deffinitely read it better. Me old eyes aint what they used to be!!!
I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

Thought for the day

When you are up to your backside in alligators, it is difficult to remind yourself that your initial objective was to drain the swamp.

Kgm13

i feel donations should be an optional feature basically to help support the forum and other sites
Reality Is An Illusion Caused By Lack Of Alcohol

isidoro

Time is money.  Some people don't have time.  They have money.  Let's allow them to contribute.  Money is not a "dirty" thing.  It's just money.  Nothing more, nothing less.

I vote yes, btw.

Colin

#21
I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea about what I'm about to say, so please 'members' don't take offence.

I'm a bit concerned that this discussion is being held on an open forum board.

This was, IMO, originally a suggestion for Devotees and Moderators etc. I didn't/couldn't imagine new members or even some older members being asked to contribute money. The reason I say this is because (most) Devotees and Moderators are here for the long haul, whereas (some) members could be here one day and gone the next. Also, I'm not sure I agree with members who have only just joined having any input to this discussion. ( I realise that certain members who appear to be new members may not be so, due to the forum change over.)

Surely this discussion should be moved to the Devotees Lounge? Or are we now putting forward that all members should contribute (money that is).
I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

Thought for the day

When you are up to your backside in alligators, it is difficult to remind yourself that your initial objective was to drain the swamp.

Combuijs

QuoteSurely this discussion should be moved to the Devotees Lounge?

No, I don't think so. After my first reply I became aware of the fact that there had been a (secret) discussion before. As Simutrans is open source, I think we must discuss things that involve and affect Simutrans in a open way. Simutrans is not made only for the devotees! >:( . I think that even the previous discussion should have been open to the whole community. With all respect to the devotees, but it's certainly not that "devotee knows best".

Why should only devotees be interested in offering money? It's a bit black and white, but in general you could say that devotees create the game (program, graphics) and non-devotees play the game. I think a lot of the players would like to contribute to Simutrans, but simply don't have time (as Isidoro says) or don't feel capable to do that. But they might be willing to contribute money.
Bob Marley: No woman, no cry

Programmer: No user, no bugs



TheUniqueTiger

I think every project, not only Simutrans, should accept donations... Its kind of a gratitude from the user towards the developer for providing something free and OS.

As this topic continues, I think there's more replies in 'yes' coming up...

greasemonkeyredneck

Of course I think that donations should be accepted, if nothing else, only to pay any costs incurred for the server to keep up the websites. This is a project that has virtually thousands of hours poured into it. The people who have put their sweat and tears into this project have never asked for compensation. So, they shouldn't have to shell out cash out of thier own pockets to keep the websites up and running.

I have steered away from Simutrans several times. I bought games such as Trains, Locomotion, and Railroad Tycoon. These games cost $20 and up in US currency. Yet, I've always come back to simutrans. It's amazing, but this free game is by far better than any of the expensive games I've bought out of the stores.

Qayyum

I would say no because I'll donate in ringgits. Cheap ringgits can't compare to euros or worse, pounds >:(.
ALLMYCONTENTISPUBLICDOMAINBUTNOEXPLOITATION

Simutrans - the open source Transport Tycoon Deluxe clone.

yoshi

Just for clarification;

1, Even if the Simutrans project accepts donation, no one will be forced to donate.
    It will be only another way to contribute to the project.
2, This topic is not talking about whether you will donate or not.
3, At least at this moment, the Simutrans project doesn't have urgent necessity to accept donation.

These points are what all devotees would agree, I think.

kierongreen

I agree with what yoshi said (and voted for a certain project - the only real reason I can see money being needed is for server costs).

DirrrtyDirk

I also voted "for a certain project" (if at all).

Yoshi put it together quite well.
  
***** PAK128 Dev Team - semi-retired*****

z9999

I think it should not accept donations which don't serve any purpose.
Currently, there is no purpose to accept donations. So, I vote "No".

I don't think we need to discuss about future problems.
They will decide it.

vilvoh

Yoshi is right. Indeed, what devotees discussed was if donations were a solution we should consider, in addition to others, not if we should donate some money or not.





Escala Real...a blog about Simutrans in Spanish...

Colin

Quote from: Combuijs on August 24, 2008, 08:51:48 AM
Why should only devotees be interested in offering money?

Because originally the idea of donations was to save Isaac's server. The Devotees, Moderators, Developers and such, had a long term vested interest. If I had only just joined Simutrans and had been asked for a donation I might have had second thoughts about staying a member.

Please do not read into what I say, something I never said. If you, the members decide to ask everyone who joins for a donation, so be it.

I still say that this was a discussion that should  have been discussed by firstly by the Devotees, Moderators, and Developers, and only then, when a consensus has been reached, should it have been put to open forum for a vote.
I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

Thought for the day

When you are up to your backside in alligators, it is difficult to remind yourself that your initial objective was to drain the swamp.

afransen

I'm confused why people think that because they do not want to donate money to support the community, no one else should be able to. This game gives a lot of enjoyment to quite a few people; if they want to donate $5 or $10 to keeping the forum on reliable hardware in order to show their appreciation, I see no reason to stop them.

If you are concerned about what happens to the money, post a ledger somewhere on the forum/site detailing donations received and expenses incurred (possibly with scanned receipts). For donors that want to remain anonymous, show the $ amount and the timestamp so that they can be confident that the money didn't disappear into someone's pocket ;).

Not everyone has the time or ability to help out with the project--why not let them help by ensuring the forum is reliable and full-featured?

IgorEliezer

#33
Quote from: z9999 on August 24, 2008, 07:12:40 PM
I think it should not accept donations which don't serve any purpose.

If really there's no purpose established now, then Simutrans should not accept donations yet.

Quote from: isidoro on August 24, 2008, 07:43:50 AM
Money is not a "dirty" thing.  It's just money.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Ahem, agreed. :)

Quote from: afransen on August 26, 2008, 12:01:59 AM
Not everyone has the time or ability to help out with the project--why not let them help by ensuring the forum is reliable and full-featured?

:D

So I voted Yes, but only fundraiser for a certain project, and this "certain project" would be "forum maintenance", if so.

Joker

Well I for one, am refraining from further comments. Expect this last one. What makes any one project more important then another. If you are going to donate to one project another will get left out. Personally I feel thats load of bull. Considering the fact that everyone here gives their time freely. If any money is to change hands, it should be to Hellmade for the cost of keeping the forum alive. Other then that there should be nothing to it.

I'm sorry to say that if money goes to anything else I think I would have to reevaluate my time spent here. Sorry that is how discusted I am at this point with this conversation and the whole donation dilemma
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall.