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Offline The Hood

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British Rail Pak additions
« on: May 14, 2009, 12:41:30 PM »
Picking up on the thing which started pakBritain off (kieron's original British Rail Pak - http://archive.forum.simutrans.com/topic/01983.0/index.html) I'm planning on filling in the missing freight and mail wagons for the next pakBritain release.  I've got a fairly good idea of what I'm going to do, but if anyone has anything they really want included that fits the bill, then post any pictures/info/suggestions here. 

Also, at some point in the future, I'm sure there will be a chance to add more trains in general - although given the selection at present I don't think that it will be a priority.  If you want something included - post it here and I'll add it to the list!

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2009, 08:33:05 PM »
Freight

We seem to have a complete time-line of the following types of freight: (1) bulk goods; and (2) oil. There is a partially complete time-line for cars. We need, therefore, a timeline for the following types of freight (aside from mail): (1) "cooled goods" (really food, since earlier transport would not be refrigerated); (2) livestock; (3) piece goods; and (4) long goods (steel, logs, etc.). We could also do with a brake van (only one needs to be drawn), which should be mandatory at the end of all trains of unfitted wagons. The car timeline before the 1970s also needs to be completed.

The guard's van should probably be of the following type, since it is most visually distinctive from, say, a box wagon:



Piece goods should generally use box vans in the early days - something like this:



Later wagons could look like this:



Container wagons should also be used for piece goods, being more expensive, but having higher capacity. The empty image should be the container flat with no container, and the full image, the container flat with a container. Two generations of container wagons should suffice. Here is a modern example:



Livestock wagons were largely similar to box vans, but slightly larger, and ventilated. Here is the best example that I could find (a model, but the shape is clear enough)



Livestock has not been transported by rail for decades, so there are no modern examples.

Food seems to have been transported in wagons outwardly almost identical to goods:



Food traffic would also use container wagons (albeit cooled) ones in modern times, so, again, the same shapes could be adapted with minor adaptations to serve food as used with goods.

As for cars, the later types are already covered, but earlier types looked like this:


(from the 1950s)

and this:


(from the 1960s).

Finally, as to steel and other "long" goods, here are some diagrams of relevant railway wagons:





As with other types of goods, in modern times, this, too, would travel by container, leaving only oil and bulk goods non-containerised by the end of the 1990s.

Miscellaneous

There are one or two gaps in the rail time-line (aside from mail/London Underground) other than the freight which it would be good to fill - significant rail vehicles that are potentially important in gameplay terms but are omitted from the pakset. These include:

Electric multiple units

A number of early electric multiple units are not included, meaning that electric multiple units are only available in the game much later than they were produced in real life. This is an overhead electrification EMU from 1913:


(reference)

And here are two 3rd rail EMUs, from 1903 and 1920 respectively:





(reference)

We could probably also do with a 4SUB.

Diesel multiple units

There is a good range of these, but one thing that might be worthwhile adding is a class 117, as the only high density unit is currently the single car 121. The 117 could easily be made by re-using the blends from the 121.

Steam locomotives

The most notable omission is the GWR Castle class, which, when introduced in 1923, was the most sophisticated express passenger locomotive of its day. There is also a Merchant Navy, but no West Country class. Both types could easily be created by modifying blends of related types (the King and Merchant Navy respectively). Finally, it would be very helpful to have the BR Standard 8P - although only one was actually built, players ought be able to take different decisions on when to bring the steam era to an end. This one, again, could easily be made by small alterations to the blend for the Britannia.

Diesel locomotives

Again, the timeline here is largely complete, although it is a little odd that there is a class 30, but no class 31. A class 50 would be nice, but is not essential.

Electric locomotives

To enable locomotive haulage on 3rd rail electrified lines from the 1940s, instead of having to wait until 1959 as is presently the case, a class 70 (originally a Bulleid design) would be very helpful. Perhaps also an 81 to enable the use of high speed electric haulage a little earlier

Hauled passenger carriages

Suburban carriages are the most notable omission: although there are some suburban carriages in the early years, (the LSWR stock, for instance), there is nothing from the mid 1920s onwards (unless the GWR droplight carriages are meant to count as suburban). In any event, the suburban BR Mk. Is are needed.

Less important, perhaps, but would be nice, are the earlier type (non-air-conditioned) mark IIs. Finally, for the use of Simutrans-Experimental, it would be good to have buffet cars for all eras. (A few sleeper carriages might also be useful for Simutrans-Experimental - they could be set up as vehicles with very high comfort, but very low capacity and very high running costs, and used on very long journeys).

***

I hope that this is all helpful. I shall very much look forward to seeing the freight wagons!

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2009, 09:37:53 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions.  I have long toyed with the idea of having a brake van, but the sheer volume of the number of constraints needed to make it work indicates to me it is probably too complicated to bother with, so I decided not to bother.  In general I am thinking of removing some of the existing constraints too - people can always just make the correct convoys if they want realism, or ignore if they don't...

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2009, 09:45:58 PM »
Hmm - I can do the constraints if you can draw the brake van :-) Really, I think that the constraints are very helpful, and it would be a great pity to lose them, as so much work has evidently gone into them. If you really do want to remove them, can you at least comment them out in the .dat files rather than deleting them, so that others who want them can re-enable them without having to re-create the work?

Edit: One thought as to mail vehicles: a Mark I BG might be useful.

Edit 2: Another thought: one additional DMU that might be extremely interesting was the LMS prototype DMU pictured here:


(reference)

The LMS were pioneers in alternatives to steam, and built this experimental unit, which was decades ahead of its time, in 1938. It was, in effect, the Virgin Voyager of its day, travelling on secondary and cross-country routes, rather than the branch lines to which the GWR railcars were largely confined. It was only the outbreak of World War II that stopped the production of these delightful looking units. However, in Simutrans, we have no wars - this unit is the perfect opportunity for additional player choice, enabling more widespread dieselisation in an earlier era.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 12:17:21 AM by jamespetts »

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2009, 03:47:47 PM »
constraints: I think it's best to keep it simple for the official releases (like making sure you can only use carriages from that form a certain multiple unit etc), and if you go down the constraints route, you have to make some fairly arbitrary decisions about what can go with what, which isn't realistic either. 

I had a thought for a ST-experimental idea though - the main thing is that all older trains with non-automatic braking ought to have some kind of brake carriage or van, but more modern vehicles (mk. 2 onwards I think) can get away without.  Maybe there could be a system where all vehicles have in their dat file a needs_brake parameter - if there are vehicles in a convoy with a needs_brake = 1, then you need a brake carriage, otherwise you don't.  Brake carriages/vans would be identified by an is_brake parameter - if it is a brake vehicle then 1, otherwise 0.  This would mean that any convoy with needs_brake > 0 would not be able to run without is_brake > 0.  What do you think?

Offline leopard

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2009, 09:13:41 PM »
speaking as someone with a moderate collection of kits for freight vehicles, with a definite LNER bias I can say I await this with interest. managed a few blender type building a while back but never got a vehicle to work properly.

considering having a go though.

the brake van idea is a good one, the way to handle it properly however requires some semi detailed physics to be considered (i.e. a change to the engine) e.g. defining a default 'brake force' equal to a vehicles weight, this providing the default braking. a lower total brake force providing a slower deceleration, hence slowing down earlier. hard to do properly.

constraints get annoying however, its easy for block trains to say a vehicle is followed by another one of the same or a brake vehicle. but this makes mixed trains difficult

I would suggest the easy way to add brake vehicles, is to give them a low cost, and a low maintenance cost, essentially they just take up space, but cost little, i.e. "eye candy" but not much more.

thinking of having a go with blender again, I currently have a partly assembled kit of a brake van like that on the bench, but thinking an actual van may be more useful.

bauxite coloured body = express freight, meat etc
white coloured body = chilled goods
grey coloured body = non express goods, crates etc

ideally will need several versions of each though, but with minimal graphical changes, maybe slightly different roof colours or a stripe of colour (not prototypical, but on the prototype you could read the writing on the side :-) ) to identify the basic goods type.

thus allowing a grey (unfitted version, cheaper but lower top speed) and a fitted (more expensive but faster) version of the basic types.

busy this weekend, but away from home next weekend, so will have some time to play.

only issue is remembering to take my external mouse, blender on a macbook (one button) is a pain. may just play in GIMP

but in blender thinking two chassis lengths a basic box and a roof is about all it needs, cattle wagon just has a slightly different body type. otherwise the model is basically the same.

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2009, 09:25:47 PM »
If you want to have a go, then great!  I'm currently doing mail vehicles to match the current set.  If you do draw things and you want them to make the set, then please make them as similar to the current style as possible - ie same lengths as current goods vehicles, same lighting, etc.  If you want blender files for any of these (complete with lighting and angles set up), then let me know and I'll get them to you.  This would help you make something consistent (and probably save time too?)

Offline leopard

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2009, 09:36:10 PM »
wouldn't say no to a blender file with a camera angle and a default place sorted to make grabbing stuff out easier.

as for style, well I can try, getting better at design graphics but 'art' isn't a strong point, better with POV than blender.

if there is something that can be used as a template though I'm certainly open to offers :-)


Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2009, 09:24:29 PM »
OK here's some progress on 19th Century mail carriages... (all re-hashes of existing stock).

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2009, 09:36:10 PM »
Excellent! Have you been working at those all day? That's a very impressive output - 14 vehicles! One small thing - the three nearest but one to the right seem to be a little too squashed together - perhaps you could increase the length by one in the .dat file?

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2009, 11:40:15 AM »
Here's some more of the clerestory coaches - I've decided to add a timeline for dining vehicles too so that more ST-experimental features can be included in this pakset from the next release - see if you can spot which is which:



The blue train has the existing passenger coaches + a dining car, the green train has mail carriages and a TPO.

Offline Michael 'Cruzer'

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2009, 11:50:55 AM »
Excellent pictures! I really like these ones.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2009, 12:24:48 PM »
Excellent! I am delighted that we will have dining cars - that will make a real difference in Simutrans-Experimental. And, looking wonderful as ever!

Edit: To answer your question, incidentally, the dining/TPO cars are the second to last on both trains.

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2009, 01:33:22 PM »
Thanks for the feedback, and well spotted James.  Not all of the dining cars will be very distinguishable from the rest - from most pictures of 1920s/30s stock, dining cars appear to be very similar from the exterior to the standard stock.  That does make my life easier though as I can re-use graphics!

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2009, 01:36:50 PM »
Cunning plan ;-)

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2009, 03:43:25 PM »
Some mail cars from the Big 4 era:



As far as I could find on google, the southern railway didn't have tpos, so I have only drawn a parcels van for them.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2009, 03:46:56 PM »
Excellent stuff! Ahh, yes, those SR mail vans lasted into BR days, too...

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2009, 05:16:21 PM »
And some Br Mk1 additions (Restaurant Buffet and Full Brake) in 3 liveries...


Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2009, 05:40:08 PM »
*Drool*

One small thing, though: the blue on the Mk I BG seems to be lighter than on the other Mk I carriages. Otherwise - excellent, as usual! (The blue and grey Mk I buffet should probably be the RBR, but that's probably just a matter for the translation files).

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2009, 07:16:07 PM »
And some additions to mk2,3, and 4 stock (buffet car for each + a driving van trailer for the mk2 which was previously missing).


Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2009, 07:27:01 PM »
My goodness - you're on a roll to-day!

Offline Colin

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2009, 07:39:13 PM »
Oh Boy!! As an expat Brit I love these. Where/when can I get them, are you going to release a PAK set?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2009, 07:47:13 PM »
Colin,

PakBritain should be released as a complete pakset fairly soon - once all the goods vehicles (mail and road) are done. The initial release will need testing and balancing, and will be lacking water and air craft, but it should be good all the same. The sources are available currently if you would like to compile it yourself (these latest vehicles have not been uploaded yet, however).

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2009, 08:49:36 PM »
Yes, as James says, the release will be available once I've drawn the remaining rail and road goods vehicles.  I'm not going to put a date on it, but it is getting closer!  Most of the rail set (stuff in this thread excluded) is available in the last release of pakBritain though.  Anyway, here's some more progress, enough to round off today I think, as it finishes off the mail and dining car timeline:



Turns out the Southern Railway did do TPOs, so I have drawn one of them as well as the BR Mk1 TPO (in post office Red).

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2009, 08:57:16 PM »
Very nice!

Offline bbc100

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2009, 10:29:49 PM »
That is very cool!!!

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2009, 06:33:32 PM »
Thanks for the feedback :)

Here are some early wagons:



5 goods types: livestock, piece, cooled, bulk, and long.  Can you work out which is which?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2009, 07:34:46 PM »
Looking impressive! But no guard's van...?

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2009, 07:56:35 PM »
As far as I can tell, trains of that period didn't have a brake van.  I'm not sure when they were introduced.  In any case, I don't think they really add anything to the game, and it would be a nightmare to do the constraints, so I'm not really that bothered about drawing them.

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2009, 07:33:55 PM »
Two more generations of wagons...



I've had another think about brake wagons - I'll probably do them as eyecandy only.  Does anyone know when they were introduced and what they looked like in early years?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2009, 08:38:43 PM »
According to this and this website, brake vans were in service from the 1880s onwards. It is unclear what the early types looked like, but here are some links to brake van pictures generally:

LMS type
SR type
GWR type
BR type

I hope that this is helpful :-)

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2009, 01:02:57 PM »
Here's some more wagons from 1900-1950s.  Also shown are brake vans (6 different ones visible), which are just eyecandy.  I'm not going to say what they all are, but hopefully people like the look of them!


Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2009, 01:06:55 PM »
Very nice! And six different brake vans? Goodness - you have been busy! Excellent work. The brake vans do look very good when connected to all those wagons. I shall very much look forward to seeing those in the game.

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2009, 09:04:05 PM »
Here's the final installment (for now) of wagons, taking us up to the present day. 



I'll do a release once I've done some crude balancing for acceleration and profit.

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2009, 09:25:19 PM »
Those are very nice - I shall look forward to the release!

Edit: If you need any help with balancing, let me know, and I'll see what I can do.

Offline The Hood

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Re: British Rail Pak additions
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2009, 09:41:56 PM »
Sources added to SVN, but currently unbalanced.  Once they've been balanced roughly, then I will produce a full release of pak128.Britain for people to play-test properly :)