Regarding the Ranran's restriction

[209CATrus]

I'd like to make a few points:

• Programming is stressful
• Fixing bugs is more stressful than programming
• Maintaining a nearly two decade old codebase is even more stressful, causes madness
• Maintaining a nearly two decade old codebase, as far as i'm concerned, has a high chance of either causing, or requiring some kind of psychological deviation to pick up such a task in the first place. Just like engineering major, huh.
• We're, as far as the game popularity goes, alone there. We have some dozens of active players, and just about a dozen active developers. Standard, let alone Extended, must keep its developers.
• Two men, especially a man that was developing the game for years and a man that was playing (and occasionally developing) this game for years must have the right to have serious, manly discussion. Full of subnormative vocabulary.

Having chitchats with Matthew here and there on Discord made me sure than Matthew is a grown up man that had a prior experience with hot arguments. Ranran, i believe, had arguments more than it seems. Rules might be the rules, but cut them some slack. I believe that since they both can settle an argument on their own, the restriction, no matter what it is, is not specifically constructive regarding the future of Simutrans development. Instead of restriction (that must be lifted, now or eventually), i propose following solutions:

• VERY SERIOUS S-TSHOW BOARD, a cesspit of some sort where developers can vent or discuss the hot topics as needed. Of course with restricted external access, so it doesn't appear on main page, and perhaps isn't shown at all to anonymous visitors.
• Since the external intervention like one-sided restrictions is very saddening and instantly breaks any chance of discussion continuing with the hopes of it producing something useful, i suggest either moving the problematic topic somewhere isolated, or ask all participants to relocate somewhere like DMs. The problem is, if the discussion actually becomes constructive through the hail and fire of subnormatively-vocalized accusations, it must have its place on this forum, at least for archival purposes.

As far as i know, the developer on developer 1on1 must be settled in an adequate environment, since just restricting developers (or, god forbid, kicking them out of community) never did any good for any project. Removes the symptoms, but not the cause. I believe Ranran and Matthew both have solid mental capacity to settle their argument without extreme measures such as restrictions.

Just look at Linus Torvalds. Barely held back, and actually went this far.

[209CATrus]

James, i actually believe you should figure out their argument purely from a developer and an Extended maintainer standpoint, without approaching it as a moderator

[Isaac Eiland-Hall]

This forum will not accept incivility. That is a baseline rule, and one of the foundational rules.

I do not believe there is consensus to allow incivility on this platform.

[209CATrus]

This forum will not accept incivility. That is a baseline rule, and one of the foundational rules.

I do not believe there is consensus to allow incivility on this platform.

That's the problem, civility is a vague term, and i don't feel anything particularly incivile in Ranran's comments. I'm pretty sure that's just a normal workplace communication style, sort to speak.

[Isaac Eiland-Hall]

Rules are kept vague because well-defined rules invite rules lawyers and those who seek to push the boundaries.

But the response to breakage of the rules is also kept vague, because the response is proportional to the offense.

A discussion about the situation was had on the Devotee forum as I didn't want to make it a larger forum issue than it already was. I don't recall anyone in that discussion that found the signature to be completely acceptable, although there were a range of opinions on the matter.

I mention that to say that as far as I can tell, your opinion about the civility is an outlier, and consensus was that it was some level of unacceptable.

This forum has been pretty free from incivility for at least two decades, and I don't think there are many that feel oppressed. It seems to be working, with pretty minor exceptions.

[Leartin]

• VERY SERIOUS S-TSHOW BOARD, a cesspit of some sort where developers can vent or discuss the hot topics as needed. Of course with restricted external access, so it doesn't appear on main page, and perhaps isn't shown at all to anonymous visitors.
• Since the external intervention like one-sided restrictions is very saddening and instantly breaks any chance of discussion continuing with the hopes of it producing something useful, i suggest either moving the problematic topic somewhere isolated, or ask all participants to relocate somewhere like DMs. The problem is, if the discussion actually becomes constructive through the hail and fire of subnormatively-vocalized accusations, it must have its place on this forum, at least for archival purposes.

1) Nobody needs a cesspit. Or rather: No community needs people who need a cesspit.
2) Nobody could stop any two people from talking out their problems in whichever tone they prefer, in private. I don't think there is any danger of something productive going missing, as that's an unlikely result in the first place and nothing stops the participants from sharing it, without any baggage.

3) You mistakenly akin Simutrans communities to something like the Linux Kernel Project. That is simply not equatable. Simutrans communities are for players and fans. Many happen to start applying themself eventually - be it programming, pak-development or other work - but it's not a Developer Community, where you'd be measured by your contributions. So, it does not mean much whether someone is a developer or not, the thought isn't "losing developers" but just "keeping the community civil". Different priorities.
If developers wanted to have a more toxic environment to discuss their work, nobody is stopping them from creating their own dev community. It just isn't something anyone ever needed or wanted.




To put it simply: Sure we want Simutrans Developers, but not for any price. If Ranran wants to be part of any community, he has to play by that communities rules, and that does not change no matter how much stuff he develops.


Also, as a man, I want to distance myself as far as possible from the thought that anything about 'subnormative vocabulary' is manly.

[isidoro]

I wouldn't be that radical.  No one should speak in the name of the community, since those points are, at least, debatable.

I remember one of the affairs with Hajo and in that occasion "the community" was quite permissive, at least at the beginning, because of Hajo's contributions.  So, those statements aren't and haven't been true in the past.

If one wants a sentence to be true, it should be universally true, not contingently true. 

[prissi]

I really hesitate to post. But the rather hostility from Ranran is something which is not fitting to the forum. Saying "you are stupid" is not a way of communication. Any developer place with that atmosphere will probably loose contributors quickly. And while Simutrans always could do with more codes, translators, testers, we are not that desperate.

In case of Ranran, the initial reaction from James was stronger than I would have done. But Ranran's reaction was also not much better, there was little effort visible at keeping objective shortcomings from general insults.

And one cannot blame this on translation software alone ...

[Oldie]

I think we need a good cool comfortable screw up against a wall. Otherwise known as a Screwdriver and a Harvey Wallbanger and a nittle kit of Koolnesk. KO?

[isidoro]

I can see both points of view.

This is a free voluntary project and developers should work comfortably.  Nobody gets paid or otherwise receives a compensation.  So the minimum is to be comfortable when contributing.

It's quite probably that the way of working of Ranran doesn't fit with the current team and my opinion, from what you have said, is that all of you can't simply work together.  That's all to it.

It's a pity that his work can't be useful to the project any more but that's how it is.

What I don't like are absolute points of view telling what is right and what is wrong, even if the majority advocates for some of them or there are cultural biases in between.

Ranran can find people with whom work together with their rules and ways of addressing differences and fork the project if need comes.

The community here has some rules and the main group of developers have theirs.  Ranran has the freedom of joining and following them or leaving.

[Leartin]

I wouldn't be that radical.  No one should speak in the name of the community, since those points are, at least, debatable.

I remember one of the affairs with Hajo and in that occasion "the community" was quite permissive, at least at the beginning, because of Hajo's contributions.  So, those statements aren't and haven't been true in the past.

If one wants a sentence to be true, it should be universally true, not contingently true. 

I rather consider it proof of my point that even the creator of the game is subject to the same rules of conduct and can be excluded, but let me specify that by 'contribution' I meant active contribution to the game or paksets, which I don't think was the point in HaJos case. But that topic should rest.

I only want my sentences to be true enough in the context they are said. If you disagree with anything in particular, please address it head-on. Otherwise, remember that not even 1+1=2 is universally true.

[isidoro]

I think that what I have said is enough to make my point clear.