Topic: Pak 128.Britain bridges

[ӔO]

nice work.
I was going to ask about diagonal roads for the elevated ways, but seeing as it's done now my question has been answered.

[ӔO]

Some simpler to create box girder bridges.

[jamespetts]

Those look nice! Do you have any idea how to get those images into the game? I must confess, I'm not sure how to do bridges yet - I understand that they can be a bit tricky.

[ӔO]

Those look nice! Do you have any idea how to get those images into the game? I must confess, I'm not sure how to do bridges yet - I understand that they can be a bit tricky.

I made things easier for myself, after I converted the blender files into sketchup files.
You can't see it, but the bridges are already made to fit inside a standard tile, which just needs a backdrop to make it look like a simutrans tile.

The slope was a bit tricky to figure out, but some trigonometry gave me a 22.25deg angle.
Incidentally, I don't recall how I got this number.

[jamespetts]

Gosh! That looks complicated. Are you able to cut the tiles into their required segments?

[ӔO]

yep, once the view has been corrected, that rectangle turns into a near perfect square that is ready for cutting. The only hard part is getting the zoom correct. The only bothersome part is cleaning up the image.

As long as the proper steps are followed, and everything is inside that colourful cube, anything will fit perfectly in simutrans.

[jamespetts]

Fascinating! May I ask - why do you use Sketchup instead of Blender for these things when export from Blender is rather easier?

[ӔO]

unfortunately, I just can't get used to blender controls and functions.
Blender is a good program, but it's only as good as the user.

[greenling]

The pictures from the bridges looking be good out!
greenling

[jamespetts]

Are you planning to try it in game any time soon?

[ӔO]

Yep, I'll try making them into pak files later today.

First I want to add some handrails and walking planks. Then I want to remove the check rails, which don't seem visible even at this scale.

[jamespetts]

Ahh, yes, the lesson sadly often learned is that much of the beautiful detail that goes into the models in the 3d application rarely is visible in the tiny 128x128 pixel graphics. Once that lesson is learned, however, graphics production can greatly increase in rapidity!

[wlindley]

Question on Blender which two years of searching has found no answer:

I have a floor plan blueprint.  With ancient AutoCAD I could sit down with graph paper and type something like: LINE 50,50-100,50 ...to draw a straight line.  You cannot control the mouse with the precision of just typing numbers.  So -- How do I enter coordinates like that from a command line -- or through any means -- in Blender? 

[ӔO]

seems like I'll need to fix a few things to the template to make it fully functional with the blender renders.

the ramps to the snow images are not set correctly, so that's another thing I'll have to fix.
The pillars offsets are going to be a bit tricky with this bridge.
I'm only posting these for a comparison.

[jamespetts]

That looks good! I do wonder whether the colour saturation on the brick could be turned down slightly, though?

[ӔO]

certainly.

the brittania imitation bridge has some problems of its own.
I'll need to trim down its height slightly, as it pokes through the top of the tile, even with offsets.

[jamespetts]

When you've done all of that, you couldn't post a tutorial on how others might do it, could you? :-p From what I've been told, making bridges is hard work and we could do with some more in the set (including really quite simple ones such as short, non-supported girder types, and basic supported concrete types, intermediately complicated ones such as steel lattice spanning types and fantastically complicated ones such as suspension bridges).

[ӔO]

sure, I could do that.
I was intending to make a template for myself to make future projects easier.
I can only make one in sketchup, but the same rules apply to all 3d programs and it's possible to import sketchup files into blender.

[jamespetts]

That'd be very helpful! Presumably, there comes a point in the process when the Blender and the Sketchup instructions become one and the same?

[ӔO]

Okay, I've gotten them working in game.

I can't quite figure out the pillars for the I-beam bridge (can also be classified as a plate girder), but these bridges are generally very short and don't need pillars unless they are long. The snow images should work, since they have  exactly the same positioning as the normal images, but I'm not sure what the commands should be for the dat files.

what they look like in game:






dat files.

Code: [Select]

Obj=bridge
name=Tubular_Box_Girder
copyright=AEO
waytype=track
cost=1
maintenance=1
intro_year=1850
intro_month=1
topspeed=120
max_length=7
max_height=2
pillar_distance=2

#pillar_asymmetric=1
#0 or 1, fixes draw height

cursor=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.2.1
icon=> Bridge_rail_boxtubular.2.0
BackStart[N]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.0.0,0,32
BackStart[E]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.0.1,0,32
BackStart[S]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.0.2,0,32
BackStart[W]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.0.3,0,32
FrontStart[N]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.1.0,0,24
FrontStart[E]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.1.1,0,32
FrontStart[S]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.1.2,0,32
FrontStart[W]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.1.3,0,24

BackImage[EW]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.0.4,0,32
BackImage[NS]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.0.5,0,32
FrontImage[EW]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.1.4,0,32
FrontImage[NS]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.1.5,0,32

FrontRamp[N]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.1.6,0,-6
FrontRamp[W]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.1.7,0,-6
FrontRamp[S]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.1.8
FrontRamp[E]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.1.9
BackRamp[N]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.0.6
BackRamp[W]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.0.7
BackRamp[S]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.0.8
BackRamp[E]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.0.9

backPillar[S]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.2.3
backPillar[W]=Bridge_rail_boxtubular.2.2
--------------------------------------------------
Obj=bridge
name=Beam_Bridge_Heavy
copyright=AEO
waytype=track
cost=1
maintenance=1
topspeed=120
max_lenght=3
intro_year=1880

cursor=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.2.1
icon=> Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.2.0
BackStart[N]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.0.0,0,32
BackStart[E]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.0.1,0,32
BackStart[S]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.0.2,0,32
BackStart[W]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.0.3,0,32
FrontStart[N]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.1.0,0,32
FrontStart[E]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.1.1,0,32
FrontStart[S]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.1.2,0,32
FrontStart[W]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.1.3,0,32

BackImage[EW]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.0.4,0,32
BackImage[NS]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.0.5,0,32
FrontImage[EW]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.1.4,0,32
FrontImage[NS]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.1.5,0,32

FrontRamp[N]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.1.6
FrontRamp[W]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.1.7
FrontRamp[S]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.1.8
FrontRamp[E]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.1.9
BackRamp[N]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.0.6
BackRamp[W]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.0.7
BackRamp[S]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.0.8
BackRamp[E]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.0.9

backPillar[S]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.2.3
backPillar[W]=Bridge_rail_beam_hvy.2.2

[kierongreen]

Can  sketchup export to blender (or blender import sketchup)? Rails look quite different when omparing renders produced by the two programs...

[ӔO]

yep, sketchup can be imported into blender if exported as a collada .dae file.
To do the opposite, blender needs to export as 3ds or collada file.
http://www.katsbits.com/tutorials/blender/import-google-sketchup-kmz-models-advanced.php

The tracks and alignment should be exactly the same, since they are directly from the blender files. I think it's just the material properties, colour and textures, which don't work too well under sketchup. There are no metallic or shiny face settings, so the rails appear dull. The textures were missing entirely from the blender to sketchup conversion, but I think that might have to do with me not knowing how to do it properly.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17111233/steel%20rail%20bridges.rar

[ӔO]

some modern high speed concrete road bridges. No footpath.

[jamespetts]

Very nice! Do you think that you could eliminate the gaps between the segments so that the road appears smooth?

[ӔO]

yep, I could do that.
I was hoping they would look like expansion joints, but I guess it doesn't fit in too well.

[jamespetts]

It'd probably look better without them, I think. Lovely otherwise, though!

[sdog]

Are the yellow dots at the left side of the bridge barrel impact attenuators?

I think the expansion joints would look quite good, but they are too wide and there should be less, which is probably difficult to make? Perhaps you could try how it looks if you leave them away at the ramps and use them only on one side of the tile, so they become a 1 px line.

[ӔO]

Would it be better to use a solid white centre line for the ramps? Usually sections where it's difficult to see, like the crest of a ramp to bridge, there is a solid white to indicate no over taking.

Are the yellow dots at the left side of the bridge barrel impact attenuators?

I think the expansion joints would look quite good, but they are too wide and there should be less, which is probably difficult to make? Perhaps you could try how it looks if you leave them away at the ramps and use them only on one side of the tile, so they become a 1 px line.

Yes, that is what those yellow and black bits are.

Expansion joints are a bit difficult to do less than shown and there are almost always expansion joints at pillars and ends. Making them thinner is easier, but the ramps exist for both sides, so it's a bit difficult to omit them at ramp ends.

It's best if the deck is kept symmetrical, because they are repeated as the bridge is spanned. The ends can be asymmetrical, but objects on it might seem out of place when you rotate the map.

[jamespetts]

Would it be better to use a solid white centre line for the ramps? Usually sections where it's difficult to see, like the crest of a ramp to bridge, there is a solid white to indicate no over taking.

It would be a double white line for no overtaking.

[ӔO]

of course! double white, what was I thinking...
I should retake my driving exam. 

[wlindley]

Isn't the International standard (which the USA more-or-less follows) that yellow lines separate lanes in opposite directions, while white lines separate lanes in the same direction?  Or how do you tell which lanes you can drive in, without smacking head-on?  What is the concise rule, or a reference thereto, please, google is letting me down here.

[jamespetts]

I don't know about the US, but the UK has its own individual lane markings. A dashed centre line separates traffic in two directions on a two-lane road; short dashes indicate a faster road than long dashes. A pair of solid white lines indicates no overtaking; one solid line next to a dashed line indicates overtaking is only permissible from the dashed side, not the solid side. Chevrons are a whole other matter (and it is significant whether they are bounded by a solid or dashed line). Yellow lines are only ever used at the edges of the road to indicate parking restrictions: only white lines are used in the centre of the road.

[sdog]

there doesn't even seem to be a european harmonization in regards to surface markings. However most EU countries have white markings now. Single dashed lines are the centre line of the roads, when overtaking is not allowed solid lines are used. Only case for double centre lines is one side solid and one side dashed to indicate it is allowed to be crossed from the dashed side but not from the solid. Lanes on roads with more than one lane in one direction have dashed lines. All lines are white. Yellow lines are temporary lines that override the white ones at construction sites in some countries some use orange lines. A while ago austria changed from yellow lines to white lines to increase visibility. (most people think to reduce costs, using only one colour, which is also bought by the much larger germany is much cheaper.)

It's quite funny since i always thought the yellow double line is very peculiar for the US. Haven't seen it anywhere else but in north america. Everywhere else (including japan) it looked more similar to continental europe.

Btw, i'm a bit confused, here in toronto cars cross the double solid yellow line all of the time. They just turn left into other streets regardless of this line. How is a "do not cross" line marked here?

[wlindley]

So if a single dashed line is in the center of the road, how do you tell that from the single dashed lines separating lanes in "your" direction?

USA rules are are that you may turn across any line, single or double of any color, into a driveway.  "No left turn" signs must be placed where turns are prohibited, and at every single driveway... there is no designation or sign that means "no left turn along this entire stretch of roadway."

[sdog]

for major roads with more than one lane in each direction is very often a strip of grass seperating both directions. If not there's a solid central line. There should be also double solid lines, that are even stricter prohibiting crossing. But those are rare where i come from. It's quite a bit different here in america anyways, where even city roads have two lanes in each direction. (I always wonder why with such gigantically wide roads so many people relying solely on cars are so upset on bicycle lanes and trams.)

Oh yes, i forgot that you can turn from four lane streets into driveways. In germany if it is a four lane street it's for high throughput and you can only leave it at designated places, usually with trafic lights unless it is built for speed and has the equivalent of on ramps. (How do you call it in america if the highway is not elevated and it's not a ramp but an even way leading into the highway?)

So it's very tedious to prevent left turns? I usually tend to suggest to prohibit left turns in Toronto downtown altogether. It's a square grid, three right turns lead get you always to the same street and direction and the crossing traffic and right turns are fast at traffic lights. Only the left turners slow everything down. Especially the streetcars, for some reason the left-turners are allow to stand in their right of way when waiting for a chance to turn left. I always feel so terribly german when i watch the traffic here, with apparently less regulation but much less efficiency. I always have this very german notion comming up to tell everyone how to do it properly. I very much dislike when that happens.

(Oh and i hate american indicators, hardly visible! No bright amber light blinking, just a blinking backlight, or some inconspiciuously weak light at the front side difficult to discern from the headlight. Got some nasty surprises more than once here. Perhaps that's the reason why hardly anyone accelerates only after leaving an intersection if they do it at all.)

[james on uk roads] short dashes indicate a faster road than long dashes

This is quite surprising and counterintuitive, since with higher speed the perceived length of the lines shrinks. (e.g. high speed german autobahn has 6 m dash with 6 m gap.)