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Poll

Is the Duplicate Backwards button helping you?

Yes, it's helpful
19 (37.3%)
Yes, but it could use an undo button
20 (39.2%)
Yes, but it could use a confirmation
5 (9.8%)
No, my schedules don't match this function
3 (5.9%)
No, it's placement is annoying me
3 (5.9%)
What? Button? Leave me alone, I'm busy building a network
1 (2%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Author Topic: Duplicate Backwards  (Read 12070 times)

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Offline KrazyJay

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Duplicate Backwards
« on: July 12, 2009, 10:50:17 AM »
Good Day fellow Simuthaners!

The button Duplicate Backwards in the schedule window has been annoying me quite often recently. I'm using a laptop with a touchpad as a mouse, obviously, but I sometimes click on the duplicate backwards accidentally instead of remove sometimes. It takes me quite a lot of effort to undo my action, remove stop by stop and click on the remove button for every single stop since it selects add stop after every action taken in the schedule window. Isn't there an easier way to undo the actions take by the duplicate backwards button? Or would it be a solution to add a confirmation button before duplicating the schedule backwards, or maybe move that button out a liitle so it wouldn't be so close to the other buttons?

Offline AP

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2009, 11:13:49 AM »
I've had the same trouble several times this morning, I would fully support an "are you sure" option for this button.

Offline Severous

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 06:08:31 PM »
Agreed.

Same problem here.

Instread of removing stops from a complex route Ive duplicated them backwards.  When there are 16+ stops to start with...thats some duplication

Offline AP

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 07:07:18 PM »
I did it once on a route that ran the full length of a 2048 tile map. At that point I just abandoned the progress I'd made and reloaded.

I can't believe it's taken someone this long to point out that it's a problem, actually. I suppose it's minor, but just very annoying.

Offline prissi

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2009, 09:02:41 PM »
I tried several times to convince players that this is complete useless and even counterproductive albeit view differed and finally it was agreed to leave this button there.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 12:24:14 PM »
The complaint is not that the button is useless (it isn't: it is very useful), just that accidentally pressing it can cause problems where there is no undo tool and/or as a result of its proximity to the "remove" button.

Offline KrazyJay

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2009, 02:23:20 PM »
Regardless of what exactly causes this issue, placement, need or lack of confirmation, (thanks for pointing this out James,) I still would like to propose a poll where players can vote whether they want it or not.

Proposed poll: Is the Duplicate Backwards button helping you?
Yes, it's helpful;
Yes, but it could use an undo button;
Yes, but it could use a confirmation;
No, my schedules don't match this function;
No, it's placement is annoying me;
What? Button? Leave me alone, I'm busy building a network!

Is this button removable or configurable through the .tab file?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2009, 02:39:57 PM »
A poll might be a good idea. And the button is not configurable in any .tab file: it is hard coded.

Offline gerw

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2009, 02:50:25 PM »
A poll might be a good idea. And the button is not configurable in any .tab file: it is hard coded.
But it should not be hard to make it configurable.

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2009, 03:08:15 PM »
A poll might be a good idea.

O hai, guys ;D

* Igor was here. *

Offline KrazyJay

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2009, 03:24:22 PM »
Thanks Igor for being here ;). Thanks guys for supporting and thinking with me. I'm curious to see results. :)

Offline Lmallet

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2009, 03:34:40 PM »
I tried several times to convince players that this is complete useless and even counterproductive albeit view differed and finally it was agreed to leave this button there.

For those who want to read the original discussion:

http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=149.0

Offline Nathan Samson

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2009, 04:15:49 PM »
I think a general undo button (general in the sense it works also for the insert/remove and add "actions) for the schedule window can be very usefull, regardless if you like/use the replicate backwards button.

Offline AP

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2009, 05:48:48 PM »
Confirmation or Undo would be good, either works really.

If someone could make the repeat backwards command more intelligent, so it is able to handle two-platform stations (where they are obviously signalled in opposite directions) automatically, that would be awesome too, and might well pick up some of the people saying it doesn't work for them.

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2009, 05:51:42 PM »
I generally am against confirmations -- "Are you sure?" gets old fast. ;D

Offline Severous

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2009, 05:54:19 PM »
I voted it annoys me. 

It annoys me when I'm changing masses of vehicles orders individually and I accidentally press this button instead of remove.  That happens though because of the repetitive boredom of micro managing many vehicles.  In normal play when just one or two tweaks I'm more focused and make less mistakes. So this is not a significant issue. My schedule building never uses this feature. I dont care if it stays or not.

If changing vehicle scheduling order code... and I had to pick a change..it would be to make the 'no load' orders work at specific stops..and not apply to all points in a schedule.  Next preference would be to have 'unload all' available as a stop specific instruction.  Doing something with the duplicate backwards button is a distant third behind those other two enhancements.


Offline micslu

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2009, 06:18:06 PM »
I voted YES with UNDO button.
I use DUPLICATE BACKWARDS very often.

But what I would really like is also ERASE ALL STOPS option.
I know this will overcrowd the panel, but as I often must revise my routes, it gets tedious removing each stop one by one.

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2009, 06:36:41 PM »
I've never hit this button by accident... >.>

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2009, 07:31:40 PM »
As noted, signalized lines and one-way platforms now render the function relatively useless except in the most trivial of networks.  It only works when you don't much need it!  (Kinda like adding lanes to a highway for rush hour.)  I vote to remove it, until such time as it can be made to "Do What I Mean" (with those one-way platforms).

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2009, 07:37:03 PM »
I think the game could use an undo in general.  I know I've lost lots of money messing up high speed tracks, and lately I've been using subways, which are a lot more expensive and easier to mess up due to the surface difference.  No clue how hard this would be to code though, I imagine it would be messy.

That said, by the time I use really expensive things like subways, I usually have the income to easily afford such mistakes.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 04:57:51 AM by Helian »

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2009, 07:55:36 PM »
As noted, signalized lines and one-way platforms now render the function relatively useless except in the most trivial of networks.  It only works when you don't much need it!  (Kinda like adding lanes to a highway for rush hour.)  I vote to remove it, until such time as it can be made to "Do What I Mean" (with those one-way platforms).

So you primarily use trains, and not busses. ;-)

Offline yoshi

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2009, 10:09:50 PM »
This button is quite useful, although it's not very useful for railways. The only thing I don't like in the schedule window is the behaviour of the delete button. I prefer the past behaviour (after deleting a stop, the delete button is still active).

Offline z9999

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2009, 10:50:48 PM »
The only thing I don't like in the schedule window is the behaviour of the delete button. I prefer the past behaviour (after deleting a stop, the delete button is still active).

Yes. I liked old behavior. Current behavior is very frustrating.

Offline Lmallet

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2009, 12:34:51 AM »
Yes. I liked old behavior. Current behavior is very frustrating.
I have to agree, I miss the old behavior.

Offline VS

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2009, 06:10:07 AM »
Agreed.

Offline KrazyJay

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2009, 06:27:30 AM »
Maybe a combined proposal? Change the delete button back to its original state, and maybe replace the duplicate backwards button with a tickbox or anything alike? So you build your schedule, if you want it to duplicate backwards, you tick the box, it duplicates backwards. If you remove the tick, the added stops disappear again. I guess it's a nice solution for those who use the button, and for those who don't like it and want to undo accidentally using it.

Offline sanna

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2009, 08:36:44 AM »
If it is too complicated to create a complete undo for the scheduling window, would the hopefully simpler approach of having a "cancel" button to nullify all changes since opening the window be feasible?

Offline prissi

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2009, 11:33:27 AM »
A cancel button would be easy to add (or probably revert all changes or so). Line creation however could no reverted then without some tracking efforts.

The current behaviour of the delete button was actually the result of a vote ... since too many people, after deleting a stop deleted also the next stop the convoi should go.

I think, the problem here is a little "I want a read-my-mind button." Maybe a revert button is probably the best to help people still dealing with a duplicate backwards button.

What will not come are confirmation windows. That are not possible without breaking the even system quite a lot.

Offline VS

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2009, 12:03:37 PM »
Maybe... if the list acted like file browsers, allowing selection of more items, deleting would be probably easier.

Reverting changes sounds like a big improvement!

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2009, 12:19:45 PM »
I vote for a "read-my-mind" button!

Offline z9999

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2009, 01:05:58 PM »
The current behaviour of the delete button was actually the result of a vote ... since too many people, after deleting a stop deleted also the next stop the convoi should go.

A reason of this is clicking station name behaves two different ways.
- When "Add stop" or "Insert" is selected, clicking station name acts as SELECT.
- When "Remove" is selected, clicking station name acts as DELETE.
This confuses players.

I think clicking station name should always acts as SELECT.
And when we click "Remove" button, remove current station directly.
I think this is good. But of course, someone will click this accidentally.  :P

Offline yoshi

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2009, 01:12:10 PM »
My point is, if the delete button behaves as it did in the past, it's pretty easy to delete the unnecessary stops, even if you mistakenly push the "return ticket" button.

But Z9999 is right, it would be good if a stop is deleted when you push the remove button after selecting a stop...

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2009, 04:36:19 PM »
Maybe add/insert should only toggle between those two, and there should be little X buttons on each stop to remove? (would still be fast to remove - hold cursor over top-most and click-click-click)

Offline KrazyJay

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2009, 04:52:01 PM »
Little x-buttons... yummy! Sounds great! And good analyzing z9999! I never realised this, but you're right. I believe this is the main difference between paid software and freeware. Uniformity (is that a word?). If we can replace the delete button by little mini X buttons next to each stop, then we solved the duplicate backwards issue by creating more distance from the other buttons, the inconsistency between add/replace and remove button and last but not least we cleaned up the windows a bit.

Offline z9999

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Re: Duplicate Backwards
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2009, 08:44:00 PM »
My favorite is ...

Code: [Select]
[add    ][insert   ][replace]
[move up][move down][remove ]