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Author Topic: Found something interesting in the news  (Read 3948 times)

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Offline Maragil

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Found something interesting in the news
« on: July 23, 2009, 07:31:07 AM »
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8164070.stm

Related to this, in Simutrans-Exp, will Electric passenger trains have higher passenger level- and (generally pak wise) why is it that they are more expensive?

Online jamespetts gb

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Re: Found something interesting in the news
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2009, 08:09:26 AM »
Maragil,

interesting news indeed! The statistics for the different running costs are particularly useful. I agree that the balancing of electric vehicles in Pak128.Britain needs re-balancing: it makes no sense for the vehicles to cost more and to have to pay to install and maintain the electrification itself, too.

Offline Maragil

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Re: Found something interesting in the news
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2009, 11:57:48 AM »
All next that needs doing is finding out the distance of track between London to Swansea :P , dividing 1bn by that number, and hey presto- that's the amount of money to electrify track to allow a train to run at approx 150mph-200mph (I'm not sure of the average speed of trains on that line, or average speed of electrified trains in Britain but 175mph sounds fast :D ).

Edit: Found out the distance. 140miles (226km). Average speed of an electric train(Eurostar on High Speed 1) is 186mph(300km/h). Also, on pak128 at least I know the Eurostar doesn't go that fast I think. (Is there a eurostar for pak128.Britain?)
As such, we can reckon that the cost of running 226km of track at 300km/h electric speed, is £4424788.8 per km. We might have to tone down the cost a little bit for simutrans, i don't think anyone can afford that :D

Also, as electric trains are not carrying fuel, shouldn't Electric trains(and hydrogen, as it's lighter) have more powah! I find it rather depressing watching my 385km/h (pak128) Shinkansen Bullet train trundling up the mountain really really slowly. Then I watch it go down at a speed so fast I don't even know how fast :D .

Maragil

 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 12:08:56 PM by Maragil »

Offline Ashley

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Re: Found something interesting in the news
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2009, 03:22:49 PM »
It's not just the cost of the electrification itself, they'll have to rebuild every bridge over the tracks between Airport Junction and Swansea, maybe alter tunnels, alter bridges, electrify depots and ancilliary track. The Severn Tunnel will pose a big problem too since it's so wet.

And the speed will be limited by the signalling on the line, probably to around 125mph (as it is now). The upgraded HST could make 140, but without in-cab signalling (no mention is made of a signalling upgrade at the same time as the electrification, which is a real shame since the line could probably be upgraded for 140mph) it wouldn't be safe to. Same reason the East/West Coast is limited to 125, the Pendalinos could easily do 140.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Found something interesting in the news
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2009, 08:01:21 AM »
In terms of the simutrans running cost per tile, electric trains are generally v high cost because they are faster than equivalent capacity diesels - so they have a higher speedbonus and therefore higher revenue per pax per tile.  The running cost is calculated so electrics have a higher profit per pax per tile, but for the faster trains (eurostar, pendolino, class 91, APT, etc.) this is still more expensive than a diesel.  Run a train with a full load though and you will get more profit, which should cover the electrification costs (if I balanced OK - if not, let me know!)

Offline Fabio

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Re: Found something interesting in the news
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2009, 12:03:23 PM »
electric trains IMHO should have lower running costs, but very high maintainance for overhead wires, so that they should be used on more trafficated routes, whereas diesel should fit for lines with sparser connections.

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Re: Found something interesting in the news
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2009, 12:10:11 PM »
I think that Fabio must be right: that reflects the reality of matters. It will never be worthwhile to have electric vehicles if their maintenance costs are higher than that of vehicles that do not require electric infrastructure, as there is always a significant construction and maintenance cost associated with the electric infrastructure.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Found something interesting in the news
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2009, 12:54:31 PM »
The issue here is the speedbonus adversely affecting income - like I said above in the simutrans-standard world the electrics of pak128.Britain give more profit per pax per tile than a diesel.  Essentially the high maintenance reflects high speed, not the traction.

I agree this is counter intuitive, but reducing the maintenance of these vehicles would lead to absurdly profitable vehicles...

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Re: Found something interesting in the news
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2009, 01:52:05 PM »
It seems that Pak128.Britain-Experimental will have to have different maintenance costs to Pak128.Britain-Standard...

Offline Fabio

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Re: Found something interesting in the news
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2009, 01:56:07 PM »
also the running costs are involved:
the diesel engines need to be refuelled (ant this is a running cost)
the electric ones don't, but their wires need to be powered (basically) all the time, hence the need for higher maintainance (including power cost).
for ST-Exp you could also think of delivering power to transforming stations along the tracks in order to reduce their maintainance.