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Author Topic: UNIFYING WIKIES  (Read 19072 times)

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Offline Fabio

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UNIFYING WIKIES
« on: October 05, 2009, 07:33:18 AM »
[i couldn't find any documentation...]

Quote from: prissi
I feel like unifying the wikis would be a good idea. If an image is added to the "german" wiki, it would be simple accessible to all other languages. Especially, when bugs or errors or corrections are done.


part of the original post removed, as it did not make sense anymore
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 11:39:11 AM by fabio »

Offline Frank

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2009, 09:57:58 AM »
..., but i couldn't find any documentation.
...

german wiki

Quote
pillar_asymmetric    Vermeidung von Pfeilern auf Hangfeldern
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 10:13:09 AM by Frank »

Offline Fabio

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2009, 11:09:10 AM »
thank you :)
i should have said: no documentation i can understand :P
anyway, congrats Frank, the German wiki is really complete. :)

Offline sanna

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2009, 03:15:02 PM »
Well, since I had already done a translation into Swedish, I gave the English language page on the German wiki a quick makeover as well: http://simutrans-germany.com/wiki/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=en_BridgeDef  (though I am not really satisfied with "Hangfelder" > "hanging tiles", better suggestions would be appreciated *smile*)

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2009, 03:19:42 PM »
"slopes" ?

Offline sanna

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2009, 03:21:09 PM »

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2009, 08:34:50 PM »
If we have Wiki texts translated to English in DE wiki, they should be copied to EN Wiki. Unless we want to keep the texts dispersed everywhere... >_>

Offline Fabio

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2009, 08:54:28 PM »
I quite agree... :::)

Offline sanna

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2009, 06:08:02 AM »
Well if anyone cares to copy it to the English wiki, they are more than welcome. Personally I feel much more at home at the German wiki... so that is where I am at...

Offline prissi

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2009, 08:20:02 AM »
I feel like unifying the wikis would be a good idea. If an image is added to the "german" wiki, it would be simple accessible to all other languages. Especially, when bugs or errors or corrections are done. Rather the few pages of english wiki should be copied to "german" wiki.

Offline z9999

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2009, 09:43:09 AM »
german wiki

Current German wiki is really useless for us.
If I click Frank's link, I can see only empty page. And I can't easily access to original one.

We can't easily compare each language versions and we can't know current language one is the same as the latest one or not.

So, I never use current German wiki. (Old one was good, by the way.)

Offline Frank

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2009, 10:00:24 AM »
the tikiwiki detect the browser language an show the language page

right top of page is a language drop down field

my japanese is very bad


and no writer -> empty pages

japanese dat index

Offline sanna

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2009, 10:06:07 AM »
I think the problem here is that there exists quite a few "empty" place holder pages on the German wiki. If there is such a page in your language, then you will see that instead of the German (or English) page. Maybe these empty pages should be removed, so that it is clear that there is text to be shown?

But as Frank pointed out, there is always a drop down list in the top right corner that allows you to show a specific language version. IMHO the German wiki is much much easier to i18n:ize than the English one, and it is also much more complete.

Offline Frank

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2009, 10:17:34 AM »
I think the problem here is that there exists quite a few "empty" place holder pages on the German wiki. If there is such a page in your language, then you will see that instead of the German (or English) page. Maybe these empty pages should be removed, so that it is clear that there is text to be shown? ...

I create this pages for simple beginning for other user

I planed copy the english text to this pages. No english text no copy.
I copy in next days the existing english pages.

Offline Fabio

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2009, 11:36:02 AM »
Wikies unifying discussion split, moved and renamed. I hope this can help the discussion.  :)

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2009, 11:43:35 AM »
You should have read this:

Revamping EN Simutrans Wiki - community work
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=2825.0

Offline Fabio

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2009, 02:33:55 PM »
should we merge the two topics?

Offline sanna

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2009, 02:44:25 PM »
Well, the topic that IgorTekton directs to has already decided in favour of the English wiki it seems to me, while here we are still discussing where to store the info...

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2009, 01:55:57 PM »
should we merge the two topics?

No, it seems this topic is treating something more specific.

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2009, 12:19:36 AM »
(later I merge both posts)

Is there still any interest in discussing a new wiki system?

Well, there are some things that we need to discuss and decide before we step forward to something more concrete:

- Wiki software
- Wiki domains (where to host and how language-wikis will be organized)
- Method of material sharing
- User registering
- Wiki ports (old material will need to be transferred and adapted).

I can't speak about all these things, but rather few ones:

Wiki software: I'd opt for latest version of WikiMedia (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki) once it's the most used by communities and "online-libraries" (e.g. Scirra/Construct, OpenTTD and Wikipedia) with the advantage that we won't need to learn something strange or too few known.

Wiki domains and ports: I don't know if this is the better, but I would recommend to follow the Wikipedia format: <lang>.wikipedia.org, i.e. <lang>.wikisimutrans.com or <lang>.wiki.simutrans.com. And we could create a temporary domain to work on, and gradually we transfer the material from current wikies to new one.

My 1.5¢  ;D

Offline sanna

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2009, 06:26:54 AM »
Whatever software we choose, I think it is imperative that it is easy to i18n:ize the content of the wiki.

Offline Zeno

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2009, 07:37:15 AM »
Well, here comes my cent:
I would first think in a couple things:

1) Project. Do the community want a global wiki? ("want" means a little of implication). I'd like to see more people in the community interested :-/ Maybe a devotee poll could help? Just to make some "global consciousness".
2) Leaders. A leader for each language would be needed, to coordinate/supervision/whatever.

Then what Igor says. A known and easy software, and such things. The only thing I would suggest is that I prefer the own mediawiki translation system rather than creating separate pages/databases; that should help to keep similar format/content in all languages.

Offline Frank

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2009, 08:58:25 AM »
Deficiencies which now exist in MediaWiki

- no linking of all wikis in all language wiki ( existing 1 - 2 years )
* link list in Tikiwiki

- for each wiki an account is needed ( multi language writing difficult )

- navigation in Simutrans MediaWikis is bad, knows that from someone

- Acceptance and awareness is poor
Why tutorials are written so in the forum or elsewhere?

TikiWiki offers

- 2 navigations ( structur top on page, categories bottom of page )

- one account for all languages

- simple change between the languages of any linked site ( dropdown field right top )

- Developer part prepared for 21 languages; it only needs to be written, which also goes anonymous

- Formatting can be copied in the pages of other languages

And you must no translating existing pages. You can write your own pages. These should then be linked only thematically with the other languages.

The only disadvantage is the direct upload of images, since they are all stored in a directory. This, however well organized with the image gallery.

german help in Simutrans TikiWiki
These pages can also be translated or new write.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 09:14:19 AM by Frank »

Offline Spike

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2009, 09:30:39 AM »
The past shows, this cannot be decided by discussion. Someone must step in, set up a wiki and maintain it properly, also fill it with content either himself or by motivating others to do so.

This someone has been Frank, at least in regard to german language content. We need a similar strong lead if we want a unified Wiki of whatever technology. Frank will not give up his Wiki, so much is certain. Who wants to step in and compete with him?

I see no real way to establish any other Wiki besides Frank's - not because I think Frank's choice of software was best, but because he created a mass of content that now cannot be neglected so easily anymore.

I think this is a political/social issue rather than a technological.

Offline Frank

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2009, 09:44:26 AM »
... not because I think Frank's choice of software was best, ...

That was not my choice but the choice of the people here in 2005.

Offline Spike

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2009, 09:47:37 AM »
I didn't mean to say if the choice was good or bad. I wanted to say that the problem is independent of the choice of software. It rather lays in the need of having a very determined person behind the project.

Offline Zeno

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2009, 09:54:14 AM »
I completely agree with Hajo.

IMHO building a whole new site would end in a neverending project; it's a pity, but I think it's true.

It would be easy to take profit of the existing structure and contents (tons of contents!!) of the tikiwiki, which is great and very complete (despite I personally find it too difficult and unclear for newbies).

About the software, I think both are good enough. Probably Frank is comparing both wiki's current settings, but IIRC both can be configured to provide all advantages that Frank says. The tip is that the TikiWiki is already configured and filled with content, and the MediaWiki isn't.

Edit:
It rather lays in the need of having a very determined person behind the project.
What a truth...

Offline The Hood

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2009, 09:58:46 AM »
For add-on creators, the german wiki is miles better - the only problem is the limited english translations / my limited grasp of german (choose whichever you feel is more appropriate ;)).  It seems a more complete reference to the game in general and is more up to date, so it would seem less work to me to translate / mimic the german wiki in english rather than re-vamp the english one. 

Offline VS

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2009, 10:15:24 AM »
Hajo nailed it :) I could not find better words or more succinct way to explain all the aspects.

Offline Fabio

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2009, 10:57:03 AM »
i used myself the German wiki a bit. i wish it could be translated in English.
Once this is done, new content could be added in either language and then translated into the other one.
the current English wiki is completely useless for me (i don't know if it is for players, i mostly use it as a reference for dats and specific rules).

Another issue is its domain, instead, as the unified wiki should be wiki.simutrans.com

Offline Dwachs

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2009, 11:31:03 AM »
i wish it could be translated in English.
At least the pak/dat-reference section can be translated!

There is a scroll-down box at the top right. Select your language there. If the page in your language is empty, copy the content of the German or English page and translate. You can edit without login. There is just a captcha to protect from spam.

There are fully translated English pages. Other 'English' pages are mix German/English, a few are simply copied and pure German.

If someone needs help with German, then please ask here (or me). Here are a lot of German people around!

Offline sanna

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2009, 11:34:38 AM »
I think fabio's plea was more "please someone translate them" rather than "I wish it was technically possible to translate them" *smile* Perhaps some of the "lot of German people" could lend a hand?

Offline Fabio

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2009, 11:36:59 AM »
I think fabio's plea was more "please someone translate them" rather than "I wish it was technically possible to translate them" *smile* Perhaps some of the "lot of German people" could lend a hand?

Precisely! :::)

Offline Dwachs

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2009, 11:42:13 AM »
Perhaps some of the "lot of German people" could lend a hand?
Sorry, but saying
Quote
please translate everything for me
is very different to saying
Quote
please help with translating page X, I just started to translate but could not figure out what term Y really means.
And yes, you can start as non-German speaker to translate the dat-reference pages. All the dat-variable names are English, which should help.

Offline Zeno

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2009, 12:05:31 PM »
Most of the content can be translated using an online translator as help and some common sense to use that. There is also the irc chat where usually you can find german users which can help you with particular/difficult cases. As Dwachs suggests there you can also ask for help by other means (p.m., mail, ...).

So, there are tools. Problems are freetime and aiming to do it.

Offline sanna

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2009, 12:47:50 PM »
Dwachs: I did not mean to suggest that you or any single individual should feel compelled to translate anything, definitely not everything. I am sorry if I gave that impression.

I am myself translating (slowly) from the German originals into my native tongue (Swedish). It has crossed my mind many a time that maybe I should turn it into English instead/also, since I am already doing all the "hard work" (i.e., understanding the content of the page). One of the major reasons why I am not doing this, is the ongoing work to update the English wiki; it seems to me as if the English speaking simutrans community has chosen that site to convene at. Also, actually producing English texts in parallel with the Swedish ones is not much of a chore, but producing English language screenshots to illlustrate them takes a bit longer - since it means I need to switch languages in Simutrans constantly... Not a big thing, but it adds to the time spent. And when it seems that noone reads the pages... well it just does not itch that much *smile*

Offline Dwachs

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2009, 01:10:34 PM »
All I wanted to say was, that it is much easier to help if there are specific requests 'translate X', having in mind that potential translators do not have much spare time to do simutrans stuff.

Imho, it is really annoying to regularly read on the forum here things like 'if the others would have translated everything from German into English then I could do this and this'. I almost never came across a specific question. The start of this thread was one of this exceptions.


Offline Fabio

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2009, 02:00:20 PM »
I use the wiki mostly (only???) as a reference for writing DATs. Old English wiki used to provide me every info i needed, now it lacks big time in this concern. German Wiki has a good coverage of the subject, but it's mostly useless for me, due to my ignorance of German (which is my fault, of course!)
If i had to ask for a specific translation, I would ask for the DAT reference. ;)

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2009, 02:46:16 PM »
due to my ignorance of German (which is my fault, of course!)

I wouldn't say that. German...
a) is quite difficult
b) is not the most popular language around
c) sounds hard or even ugly to many people hearing (but not understanding) it
d) learning English (as a foreign language) is usually way more important / useful

... so I'm usually very impressed by any "foreigner" actually bothering to learn speaking/understanding it at all. Not knowing it, however, is nothing that anyone should feel troubled about. Ever.

Now, about translations... I'll sure help. But since I don't have that much time that I'd like to spend on it, I'd like to stick to translating - i.e. I don't want to bother copying content from a German page to an English page or creating an English page from the roots, etc... (As I have no idea about tiki-wiki... and not much more about media-wiki, too). So if someone gives me an "English" wiki page (just with copied German content) I could go and start translating that (=I'd just translate the text parts, leaving the formatting as it was, since I don't know how to do that for example). Of course it would also be helpful if, like Dwachs said, people would tell "us" Germans what pages are "urgent" for them - since nobody will probably want to do it all at once (I certainly don't).

Offline sanna

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2009, 03:35:00 PM »
Now, about translations... I'll sure help. But since I don't have that much time that I'd like to spend on it, I'd like to stick to translating - i.e. I don't want to bother copying content from a German page to an English page or creating an English page from the roots, etc... (As I have no idea about tiki-wiki... and not much more about media-wiki, too). So if someone gives me an "English" wiki page (just with copied German content) I could go and start translating that (=I'd just translate the text parts, leaving the formatting as it was, since I don't know how to do that for example). Of course it would also be helpful if, like Dwachs said, people would tell "us" Germans what pages are "urgent" for them - since nobody will probably want to do it all at once (I certainly don't).
On the tikiwiki pages where there are a Translate option on the drop down list in the top right corner, if you use that option, then the newly created page will automatically contain the German text. If the drop down list does not have a Translate option, then you need to ask Frank. Furthermore, there are already quite a few "English" pages around, that in fact contain primarily German text.

Offline Dwachs

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2009, 05:50:00 PM »
If i had to ask for a specific translation, I would ask for the DAT reference. ;)
That is way to vague :) There are a lot of pages for dat-references.

And I agree with everything Dirk said. Especially this part:
Of course it would also be helpful if, like Dwachs said, people would tell "us" Germans what pages are "urgent" for them - since nobody will probably want to do it all at once (I certainly don't).

Just PM me, if there are very specific translation requests.

Offline DirrrtyDirk

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2009, 06:32:55 PM »
On the tikiwiki pages where there are a Translate option on the drop down list in the top right corner, if you use that option, then the newly created page will automatically contain the German text. If the drop down list does not have a Translate option, then you need to ask Frank.

Good to know. But that's still more or less what I'd expect the person I'm going to translate for, to do on his/her own. Then he/she just gives me the direct link to the English page and I'd get to work. Mind, I'm just offering to do the very last step: the actual translation - I'm not going to organize anything in the wiki, since that can either be done by others themselves (you don't have to be able to translate German for that) or in other cases needs to be done by Frank. You see, all the time I'd spend on these administrative things, I could use on translation instead. And that's exactly my purpose - and my premise.

Oh, and BTW why does the wiki (at least on some pages... well at least one page - I didn't check more) show "English" and "English British" as two separate languages? I don't think that we need (or want) two different English versions... that will only lead to confusion and chaos, since I don't think people will care to update both when they edit something...

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Offline Fabio

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Re: UNIFYING WIKIES
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2009, 07:17:51 AM »
Thank you, Frank! the images show exactly what i wanted to know.