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Offline ӔO

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maps of britain/united kingdom
« on: December 27, 2009, 10:17:11 PM »
I wasn't satisfied with the size of the UK map in maps.simutrans so I figured I'd try making one myself.
There are a lot more rivers that are navigable and quite frankly networks require a lot more planning because it's not a polished map. Unfortunately, I couldn't quite get all of UK in there without taking out too much of Europe. Ideally, to make rivers navigable, without cutting into land too much, the map size should be 1.5 times bigger, but I don't think most computers can handle that without severe choppiness, so this is a compromised size.

map size is 1700x2479

380mb or so memory usage. Should run fine with 1gb of memory and 2ghz CPU
recommended map settings
water height: -2
Mediterranean: 1 (or 3)
Temperate: 3 (or 1)
Mountain: 5

http://files.simutrans.us/files/get/oQEz-w-5jT/uk1700x2479.rar

anyone else want to give it a try? :)
copyright free and free distribution, but please give credit.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2009, 11:32:46 PM »
Ahh, excellent! This is a better size for Simutrans-Experimental, too. Would it be possible to make one that is a scale size for Pak128.Britain-Ex with Simutrans-Experimental, being 4 tiles for every kilometre? That would produce a very large map, although those with more powerful computers might be able to play it. As an alternative, however, a 1:1 scale map of just England and Wales might be an option, or, as a compromise between the two, just of Great Britain. Good to see more British content, however!

Offline wlindley us

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2009, 11:59:31 PM »
In "Sylvie and Bruno Concluded", Lewis Carroll writes of a country that commissioned a map at "the scale of a mile to the mile" although it was too difficult to unfold, and "we now use the country itself, as its own map, and I assure you it does nearly as well."

Offline ӔO

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2009, 12:12:32 AM »
sure, I can make a 1:1 map of UK.
rough estimation of size: 837km wide, 1350km tall (including Shetland and parts of europe)
in game: 3348x5400

I've used a 3200x1800 map of russia before and that was 500mb so I would guess it is around 1500~1700mb of memory used for a 1:1 UK map.
Probably would require a pretty powerful CPU or good settings for the route calculations.

Maybe having one big map for the adventurous and several smaller maps, like big 4 era quadrants and named express routes as well as England and Wales would be good?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2009, 12:17:05 AM »
That is one huge map! Indeed - one big map for the adventurous, perhaps a medium sized map of England and Wales, and the smaller sections as you suggest (although I daresay that the "LMS" quadrant will be bigger than England and Wales!).

Offline Combuijs

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2009, 06:26:33 AM »
Quote
I've used a 3200x1800 map of russia before

I don't know that map. If you still have it, could I possibly place that map on http://maps.simutrans.com/? You will find your UK map there as well next year. And if you have any other maps available I would be very interested!

Offline ӔO

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2009, 08:12:36 AM »
@combuijs
that russian map was a previous project I did. didn't turn out too good, IMO


ok, here are the really super sized maps.
I wasn't paying attention when making the maps, and didn't quite end up with 4 tiles = 1km.
oops :o

XL maps are slightly oversized scale, 5 tiles would equal 1km actual. M maps are half the size of XL maps. Rivers are navigable, but the shoreline is unpolished. Unfortunately it's just the way the image editing tool I used works.



Big Four XL maps pack
http://files.simutrans.us/files/get/tW4G9qNe3Y/uk-big-four-xl-maps.rar
GWR XL - 2288x2192
LMS XL - 3488x5248
LNER XL - 2920x4216
SR XL - 1712x880

UK/britain and England Wales XL map pack
http://files.simutrans.us/files/get/r3fQQ0ZvhM/uk-and-england-wales-xl-maps.rar
UK XL - 4880x7632 (Warning! only load this if you have a really powerful system)
England & Wales XL - 2880x3584

50% sized versions of the extra large maps
http://files.simutrans.us/files/get/hOjHBM3eXu/uk-maps-medium.rar
LMS M - 1744x2624
LNER M - 1460x2108
UK M - 2440x3816

GWR, SR and England & Wales do not have M sized maps because the XL versions aren't very large.
My recommendation, use the UK XL map to cut out the parts you want if you like the feel of the smaller maps since they all use the UK XL map as the base.

copyright free, free distribution, but please give credit
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 08:24:52 AM by AEO »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2009, 11:13:32 AM »
Splendid! What a wonderful project. This is excellent.

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2010, 03:22:13 PM »
Excellent work!, i'm going to give this a go, i was looking for a large map of Britain to try and this will be perfect.

Offline ӔO

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2010, 06:53:48 PM »
thanks for the comments.

playing the maps myself, if you want to utilise boats, barges and ships, the first one is good and makes you wish for diagonal bridges :D
If you want a huge rail network, the second set is better.

Offline AP

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2010, 07:27:29 PM »
Hi AEO

I've just been playing around with the the SR map. Immediate observation is that it seems to cut off everything west of Weymouth (SR went as far as Padstow, maybe including all of Cornwall might be good)

My other observation is that the map seems a bit 'flat'. I couldn't quite find a sea level that gave an accurate coastline, without flooding the river valleys. Was thinking that, as we have proper rivers now, maybe with some image editing the ppm file could be tweaked so that the river valleys are +1, and can have proper rivers drawn in.

Was wondering, what is the origin of the data for these?

Edit:
I assume the eventual ideal is that we work up a 'populated' map accurate to some key start dates (1750, 1830, 1880 etc).
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 09:44:26 PM by AP »

Offline ӔO

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2010, 04:32:45 AM »
@AP
if you have a better map of SR, then could you please link me one? I couldn't find a really good map of the line like I could for GWR, LNER and LMS.

I think the map is 'flat' because I accidentally painted in some colours of the map to what it shouldn't be. The first map was done mostly correct, but I still see a lot of minor bugs on the map. When working with a larger map size, it was done on an entirely new set of images, which is why they ended up slightly different from the first.

original data is mostly from 'shaded-relief' by using their natural and relief maps as well as some other map images off of the internet. basically you play around with the magic wand settings until you get the desired results, but they're somewhat hard to see at these sizes which is why there are all these graphical errors.

Offline AP

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2010, 08:41:58 AM »
The Southern Railway network was a composite of three main companies:

SECR - Map Here
LBSCR - Map here
LSWR - Map here

I suggest you might want to take a straight line cut just north of somewhere like Oxford, so that you can include the (competing) GWR mainline route on the map.

EDIT:

Found better maps:
http://www.semgonline.com/sr_map/srmaps.html and especially http://www.semgonline.com/sr_map/1962map.html shows the area you want, though including Truro/Penzance and Oxford would be logical.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 11:06:47 AM by AP »

Offline ӔO

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2010, 06:44:09 PM »
thanks AP.
I'll try and make an fixed/updated map by the end of the week.

Offline AP

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2010, 01:47:24 PM »
original data is mostly from 'shaded-relief' by using their natural and relief maps as well as some other map images off of the internet. basically you play around with the magic wand settings until you get the desired results, but they're somewhat hard to see at these sizes which is why there are all these graphical errors.

Have just seen this:
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=27052

It's a way to generate heightmaps from the Google "terrain" maps - which are in fact quite detailed. Might be of use.

Offline ӔO

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2010, 07:23:15 PM »
oh, hey, now that's an interesting way to do things.
I'll look into it.

Offline AP

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2010, 08:48:50 PM »
Well I've had fun playing with that. The data is overwhelmingly detailed, I've compiled a complete terrain (DEM) model for the UK but it's 1.2Gb so anyone wanting to make maps from it will have to compile their own copy.

However, the quality of the maps is astonishing. I made the Southern Railway region as my test, since I know it - screenshot attached for comparison, the piece of land visible is Portsmouth (Portsea Island). Note that this is not the maximum level of detail possible from the data, I was just worried about RAM- but a map of say Kent or the Isle of Wight could go into even more detail.

Assuming I can find somewhere to upload it, I'll attach my (v102.2.1, pak.Britain) sve file as well.
Edit: http://rapidshare.com/files/335350035/Southern.sve.html (but it says 10x downloads only, so if anyone has a better upload option that'd be good, it's 2.5mb).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 10:29:22 PM by AP »

Offline The Hood

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2010, 07:27:51 PM »
files.simutrans.us is a good bet :)

Offline AP

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2010, 10:04:12 PM »
Cheers Hood.

1x SR map @ 1750 with rivers added (but no cities)
http://files.simutrans.us/files/get/u5E4XmiWf3/srrivers-1750-102.2.1.sve

Offline The Hood

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2010, 10:49:25 AM »
Wow that's huge!  My 7-year old computer can only *just* handle that - I don't think I could play a game on it... How much RAM do you have then?!?!

Offline AP

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2010, 11:04:49 AM »
Heh, I don't think I could handle a 7 year old PC  :o , not for the programs I use for uni!
I'm running an IntelCore2Duo 2.5GHz CPU with 3Gb RAM and a 512Mb GPU. I just upgraded to Windows 7.

But, for instance, if you cropped just part of that map, at that scale, you could play London-Dover (LCDR vs SER) , or London-Southampton, or London-Bristol, or Exeter-Penzance, with quite some detail. The only annoyance is the rivers, have to be drawn on (hence I made that map at 1750, so I only had to do it once).

I'm going to have a "play" on the full map today, because it runs without issue at the moment. Prissi says once the map is loaded, most of the computing power depends on convoys rather than anything else, but I want to test that for myself.


Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2010, 11:46:23 AM »
There may be some merit in making saved game versions of these maps, with all the rivers and correct towns added.

Offline kierongreen

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2010, 05:38:07 PM »
Quote
Heh, I don't think I could handle a 7 year old PC  Shocked , not for the programs I use for uni!
There's going to be a fair few people with older computers - aside from my netbook (which is older in technology terms anyway) newest computer I have is 5 years old... I should probably upgrade some time, but just can't seem to get round to it...

Offline ӔO

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2010, 05:56:11 PM »
I've found, that if you rotate the map of britain/UK by around 12.5 degrees clockwise, you can cut down on the map size significantly as it gets rid of a lot of open ocean.

and my revised map isn't working too well atm and needs further fixing.

props to the hand drawn rivers. that's about the only way to get the map to work 'correctly'

Offline VS

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2010, 06:14:25 PM »
Shouldn't that be counter-clockwise?

Offline AP

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2010, 06:43:17 PM »
props to the hand drawn rivers. that's about the only way to get the map to work 'correctly'
There may be some merit in making saved game versions of these maps, with all the rivers and correct towns added.

Indeed, I also can't think of another way to get a "playable" Britain from them. Once we've established a playable size of map, if we populate them at 1750, it's the work of a few minutes to change that to 1850 /1950 with the 'advance year' button.

The size thing is annoying, thought. Because it's multiplying effort to make the maps of different sizes. Would that we could just crop bigger maps down to size afterwards...

Offline ӔO

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2010, 07:48:10 PM »
@VS: Shouldn't that be counter-clockwise?

nope, clock wise. If you do it counter-clockwise, then the chunnel and Shetland (although that's part of Scotland) no longer fits. Also the north and west directions become straighter in relation to the coast line.

@AP: The size thing is annoying, thought. Because it's multiplying effort to make the maps of different sizes. Would that we could just crop bigger maps down to size afterwards...

if there was only a way to 'draw' rivers into the maps with special colours...

Offline VS

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2010, 08:33:10 PM »
Ahh, for some reason I thought Scotland was significantly bigger on the continental side. That's what one gets from learning geography from Transport Tycoon. Time to confront my memories with reality :P

Offline AP

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2010, 09:47:26 PM »
if there was only a way to 'draw' rivers into the maps with special colours...

Indeed. And to put dots for town spawn points as well!

Prissi is however suggesting a different route, which I don't currently understand, but hopefully he will explain in more detail. (see http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=4261 ).

Edit: PS, if anyone wants the test version of the SR map with towns, I can upload it. Although playable, it did prove, however, that any effort towards automating town and river placement is eminently worthwhile!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 09:55:10 PM by AP »

Offline The Hood

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2010, 10:40:47 AM »
Looks good.  I assume more towns are to be added later?  And is the ultimate aim for you to make a scenario of this with correct lines at a given year?

Offline AP

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2010, 01:03:24 PM »
Link to SR 1750 v2 with (most) towns in the London-Bristol section here.

At this point it's one step at a time... first it was a test of the DEM terrain data, then a question of scale/detail to make it interesting to build routes, then whether the computer could play it, now it's about the sheer effort of rivers and town location.

Yes, I certainly see it developing into a scenario, at first (a 1750 and) an 1830 "ready to start the railway age". Once that is available, it's not much of a chore to play it and make a 1870/1923/1963 version. It's what I've been wanting to do since I first got hold of simutrans!

My concern is more the need for different maps of different sizes. I could potentially see the SR map being available in about 6 different playable sizes to suit different PCs (say Cornwall, Wessex, Ldn-Brighton-Southampton, Kent, all-SR-small, all-SR-big). You could probably cut up the LNER/LMS into more than that. But given that drawing rivers, correcting terrain, is labour-intensive, I'm just watching that other thread to see if there is a more efficient way to setup/distribute them than via finished hand-made sve files.

In the immediate term, the concept has been proven, but I'm reluctant to invest time in populating maps until I'm clear there isn't a better way.


[Aside: also to be borne in mind. The big map is awesome, but a 100km/h train takes 2 game months to do London-Bristol, which feels like the decent journey it really is. But I wouldn't want to play it with barges moving at 10km/h!]


Edit: Link added.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 01:27:18 PM by AP »

Offline The Hood

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2010, 01:26:36 PM »
In terms of the 2 months London-Bristol, turn up bits per month setting a couple of notches, which slows game time down.  You could then speed up the passage of game time with "." to suit...

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2010, 01:09:07 AM »
@AEO

What was the game engine version and pak set/version used to generate the SR 1750 v2 file?

Its 8 Meg sizes is very interesting (see http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=4324.0) when compared to benchmark files sizes I am getting for large maps.

btw: I love the map.

Jeff

Offline ӔO

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2010, 04:10:59 AM »
@jeff
you'll have to ask AP for that one as AP did all the work on it.
I believe he used this method here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=27052

personally, I can't run that sort of map size and like to keep the sizes below 1.2gb, or basically a size that fits within the half my computer's memory.

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Re: maps of britain/united kingdom
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2010, 02:56:02 PM »
@AP  (sorry for the earlier wrong reference)

What was the game engine version - standard or experimental - and pak set/version used to generate the SR 1750 v2 file?

Its 8 Meg sizes is very interesting (see http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=4324.0) when compared to benchmark files sizes I am getting for large maps.

btw: I love the map.

Jeff