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Offline IgorEliezer br

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Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« on: March 08, 2010, 01:37:25 PM »
Unifying the Wikies

I want to start an important discussion: It's about our documentation.

The documentation is our manuals, wikies, references, e-books and other texts that explain how to play and extend Simutrans. Documentation of Simutrans has always been a Achilles' heel of Simutrans Community. I've seen people have had a bunch of difficulties to learn how to play, modify and enhance Simutrans. Our documentation is so dispersed and redundant that it's rarely mentioned on the forums.

Once players can't understand the game and don't find a way to get a support, they get frustrated and quit. Hence, we lose potential members and developers.

The idea is simple: unifying all Wikies in one place and eliminating all duplications. E-books will continue to be stored in docs.simutrans.com.

I propose the Simutrans-Germany Wiki as the only and official Simutrans Wiki of community. It already has a multi-language interface -- once you had got an account there, you're able to edit all languages --, it has a good amount of English texts.

Frank has made a great effort maintaining and updating the Simutrans-Germany Wiki. The Simutrans-Germany Wiki is now cleaner and more pleasant to be read. Last, I had proposed the Wiki unification at the Simutrans Chat some weeks ago and several members, including Wiki writers, agreed.

I for one am willing to transferring PT-Wiki content to Simutrans-Germany Wiki because I support the idea of unifying the wikies and I see this as a good option for the community.

So, I'd like to "hear" some pieces of advice and comments before starting to do the works.



Decided Resolutions

Items in which there are enough or total concordance:

1) Unifying the Wikies is a need and shall be done.

2) Simutrans-Germany Wiki will be the only and official Simutrans Wiki.

3) Porting/Transferring material: See Tranferring Wiki texts to Simutrans-Germany Wiki.

4) Maintenance: Frank is the Wiki Maintainer and Admin.



Non-Decided Resolutions

Ideas and items under discussion:

1) Backups: where to do/store in? And how to do?

2) Moderation: how to moderate contents? A moderator per language?

3) Server and domain/addresses (not important: postponed)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 11:35:12 PM by IgorTekton »

Offline Spike

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2010, 01:46:47 PM »
I vote pro unification, too. Frank's wiki has a big coverage of topics already, and at least among the german community is well established, so I think it will be good to move the other content there.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2010, 01:54:21 PM »
Makes sense to have it one place to me.

Offline Napi­k

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2010, 01:56:46 PM »
I think, it is a great idea and I fully support it.
Tomas

Offline vilvoh

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2010, 02:04:09 PM »
If we have to gather all info about Simutrans in a single place, the german wiki is the best choice. It's well organized, almost all important content is already created and you "only" have to translate it so gotta unify'em all!!

Offline VS

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2010, 02:08:10 PM »
Supported (yet again ;) )

Offline Zeno

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2010, 02:08:24 PM »
Sure, you (Igor) already know my oppinion about this. All wikis in one is a need, and the german tiki-wiki is at the moment (IMHO) the best option.

Offline Fabio

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2010, 02:36:40 PM »
full support!

Offline Combuijs

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2010, 02:49:13 PM »
I absolutely agree!

I better start looking for a course of TikiWiki then...

Offline wipi35

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2010, 03:18:27 PM »
Good idea, you have my support.

Offline sojo

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2010, 04:17:51 PM »
I think it's a very good idea. The new design is very clear. Much better and I vote for yes! ;)

But I think the searchbox should be the first in menu and the imprint and copyright can go to the bottom. So users should fast find the search-box.

More about this I write in german, if desired. ;)

Offline Dirk Burkholz

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2010, 05:11:57 PM »
Even I think this is a good idea. I currently don't have the time to support all the MediaWiki installations properly and Hellmade's server makes a lot of trouble with uploading pictures.

There are only two concerns I have: I would like to have at least three superadmins and an automatic daily back-up of the files and database. I trust Frank but his server isn't controlled by the community and we need a back-up if something happens to Frank or the server. I will also propose a new back-up strategy in a new topic.

Offline Lmallet

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2010, 08:21:14 PM »
Emm...  I don't think you will find many people opposed to this idea, as a central wiki makes a lot of sense, but we really need to have a discussion on how this is going to work.  Some topics that come to mind:

-Are we simply just translating the german version of the wiki?  Or are we translating the "best" version of a topic?  Who decides what is better and what is not?
-Are we to move stuff from the old wiki to the "new" one?  I am quite certain the FR version of "signals" is different from the PT one, which is also probably different from the DE version.
-What style are we going to use.  Newbies probably prefer a lot of pictures, more serious/technical users will want something short and to the point (which is how I feel the DE wiki is).
-Are we trying to replace SRM?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2010, 08:40:30 PM »
Unification makes a great deal of sense, but as LMallet says, the logistics must be thoroughly considered. All of the English content on the Mediawiki should be transferred (unless the English content on the existing wiki is better for any given page); where there is a conflict, there should either be some combination of the best of each version or a vote (either here or on the public forum) as to which to keep.

As to LMallett's question about the style, I suggest having a brief introduction to each topic in a style friendly to new users, and an "advanced" section with more techincal details (where appropriate) suitable for more advanced users.

As a Simutrans-Experimental developer, I should also like to request that there be space in the wiki for Simutrans-Experimental specific content: perhaps a tab or symbol wherever a Simutrans-Experimental specific feature appears, and some documentation specific to Simutrans-Experimental available by following the link.

Finally, ought some thought be given to integrating the text of the wikis with the in-game help, perhaps even automatically or semi-automatically?

Offline Frank

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2010, 11:19:36 PM »
...
-Are we simply just translating the german version of the wiki?  Or are we translating the "best" version of a topic?  Who decides what is better and what is not?
...

It is not forced to accept anything from other languages. Anyone can write characters and its pages as he wants. But it should also not harm if they are looked at others.

Basically, can only link a page with other languages. The scenario is when a page contains multiple topics for which there is in a language other than one page can be linked to only one side of the other language.

There are 2 independent navigations.

Structures = Contents of the book
Categories = loose grouping of various matters


Unification makes a great deal of sense, but as LMallet says, the logistics must be thoroughly considered. All of the English content on the Mediawiki should be transferred (unless the English content on the existing wiki is better for any given page); where there is a conflict, there should either be some combination of the best of each version or a vote (either here or on the public forum) as to which to keep.
...

Tikiwiki also has an integrated forum, which can be used for discussions of the pages.

The English content is from the first Tikiwiki from the year 2006.


...
But I think the searchbox should be the first in menu and the imprint and copyright can go to the bottom. So users should fast find the search-box.
...

@sojo
see graphics

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2010, 03:04:59 AM »
Thanks Frank for replying. I was awaiting for your say. :)

Seems everyone here at least agree on unifying in one place the wikies.

Have all wiki maintainers exposed what they think about the proposal? I don't know if all of them had :D. It's important to listen to all maintainers before doing something solid.

As for the method of "porting" the material from Simutrans Wiki to Simutrans Germany Wiki: would it be hard? quite probable once I believe it'll be made by hand:

- you'll need to open an article of the old wiki and find the corresponding article on Germany Wiki:
-- if existing: compare which is better; transfer the content or delete.
-- if not existing: create a new article and transfer the content.
- blank the old article and place a notice with a link pointing to corresponding article on Germany Wiki.
- when all pages of old wik of a subdomain were blanked, we'll redirect the address to Germany Wiki.

I know there are more details, but everything will be treated step-by-step.

Besides, you all think it's better to keep this discussion here or better moving it to the public to get more non-devotees people involved in?

EDIT: faux amis D:
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 01:33:25 PM by IgorTekton »

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2010, 03:58:55 AM »
I really like this idea.

Also, since I do have two servers: For backups, it would be perhaps good to back up to my secondary server?

Offline sojo

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2010, 09:10:56 AM »
Frank I have seen this search-box. But in the menu is a search-box too. And I think this search box is more important than the copyright and the imprint so it can be on top.

Offline Frank

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2010, 09:28:01 AM »
...
- you'll need to open an article of the old wiki and find the correspondent article on Germany Wiki:
...

Mediawiki article is not Tikiwiki article

The articles in Tikiwiki correspond to a kind of news system.

Mediawiki article -> Tikiwiki wiki page

Offline Spike

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2010, 10:38:01 AM »
... the copyright and the imprint so it can be on top.

I think for websites in English the word "contact" is more common than "imprint". "Imprint" seems only to be used for books in English. But maybe a native speaker can enlighten us?

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2010, 12:52:43 PM »
Frank, what I meant by "corresponding article" was "similar article". For instance: EN Wiki has a signal tutorial article, then you'll need to find the signal tutorial article of Germany Wiki and compare each other to see which is more complete.

EDIT: faux amis D:
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 01:33:57 PM by IgorTekton »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2010, 12:54:33 PM »
Perhaps "corresponding" article?

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2010, 01:35:56 PM »
Thanks for pointing me out a faux amis (or whatever it's called :D).

Offline Frank

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2010, 10:15:10 PM »
Content pages in Tikiwiki call 'wiki page'. Articles by Tikiwiki mean something else.

to distinguish

Wiki page
Article

[de]
vielleicht kann es jemand besser erklären

Im Mediawiki nennen sich die Content-Seiten Artikel.

Beim Tikiwiki bedeutet aber Artikel etwas anderes. Nämlich eine Art News-System.
Wenn von Content-Seiten die Rede ist, dann sollte nicht der Begriff 'Artikel' verwendet werden.

Content-Seiten nennen sich im Tikiwiki 'Wiki page'.
[/de]

Offline Spike

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2010, 09:22:33 AM »
Frank wants to say that the word "article" in Tiki Wiki refers to a news type article, maybe similar to a blog entry. A "Wiki Page" is a content page in the wiki.

Offline Ashley

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2010, 12:45:59 PM »
I broadly support this proposal, a single source of documentation is better than many spread out ones.

I think that we possibly need to have another discussion about ways we can make Simutrans inherently easier for new players though. Many people won't even get as far as the Wiki, and nowadays people expect some kind of built-in tutorial in games which have any great level of complexity to them.

Creation of an in-game tutorial, with scripted prompts designed to introduce players to the game would complement a unified documentation source, and give players with short attention spans a chance to get into the game before frustration sets in.

I'd also call for very regular backups of the Wiki, we've lost too much in the past. Maybe we can set it up to be automatically mirrored to Isaac's server?

Offline jonasbb

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2010, 12:59:58 PM »
I support the idea of unifying the wikis.
It is much easy if all is in one wiki.

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2010, 01:05:24 PM »
Support!

But you mean (I hope) to eliminate "duplication" -- as "duplicities" means "lies."  *grin*

Offline IgorEliezer br

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2010, 01:26:27 PM »
But you mean (I hope) to eliminate "duplication" -- as "duplicities" means "lies."  *grin*

;D

Back to the topic...

Seems we're having a concordance with the following items:

1) Unifying the Wikies is a need and shall be done.

2) Simutrans-Germany Wiki will be the only and official Simutrans Wiki

So, I added both of them in the 1st post under "Decided Resolutions". I hope nobody (Isaac?) come here and say "I'm con".  ;D

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2010, 02:13:43 PM »
One thing I would suggest is possibly moving the wiki from simutrans-germany to the simutrans domain, it just seems more international that way, rather then the implied german priority that housing it on simutrans-germany gives.

Offline Frank

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2010, 10:02:11 PM »
...
I'd also call for very regular backups of the Wiki, we've lost too much in the past. Maybe we can set it up to be automatically mirrored to Isaac's server?

sorry, the first Tikiwiki lost on Isaacs Server

Offline rainer

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2010, 07:51:51 PM »
I do support the entire idea and respect Frank's work
wholehartely. OTOH, due to several experiences in
this community I agree with Dirk Bucholz...

> I would like to have at least three superadmins and an
> automatic daily back-up of the files and database. I
> trust Frank but his server isn't controlled by the
> community and we need a back-up if something
> happens to Frank or the server.

...as well as Isaac...

> Also, since I do have two servers: For backups, it would
> be perhaps good to back up to my secondary server?

...and itec

> One thing I would suggest is possibly moving the wiki
> from simutrans-germany to the simutrans domain

As Frank is the "chief of content" somehow, a professionall
admin should be the "chief of the server".

Offline prissi

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2010, 09:48:28 PM »
Imho all parts of the simutrans infrastructure (SVN, translator, wikis, forum) would do better with more mirroring. But as for webmastering Franks has done an as good job as anybody else in the community. The translator has grown into a very powerful piece of web application, and that was entirely done by Frank.

Imho more needed are real admins for english and other languages who really co-adop the wiki, to surmount the language barrier; especially for everything but english and german.

One should also think about a mandantory registration for editing for all languages, as the english wiki will get more spam when it gets more exposure.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2010, 10:28:36 PM »
I like idea.

The Japanese wiki page is quite well done and elaborates more compared to the English page.

Offline Frank

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Re: Unifying the Wikies - Community Discussion
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2010, 10:47:09 PM »
....
One should also think about a mandantory registration for editing for all languages, as the english wiki will get more spam when it gets more exposure.

Spam will be responded to if it's there. As in the past.



...
..., a professionall admin should be the "chief of the server".

not necessary and not possible because it is a V-Server



One thing I would suggest is possibly moving the wiki from simutrans-germany to the simutrans domain, it just seems more international that way, rather then the implied german priority that housing it on simutrans-germany gives.

The domain is simutrans-germany.com. germany stands for the location of the server.

.com is an international

This server only Simutrans run projects. Why, he may well be considered as official Simutrans server.



Add with all the demands I put forward the question of whether you really want it.

the history of the TikiWiki:

- 2005 was the first Tikiwiki Isaacs was created on server
- until about March 2006 was taken over most of the old Hajos PmWiki in the English part and a little update
- then is not much happening in the English part
- in the German part was published in February 2006 began to write
- until February 2007, the German part was quite developed in
- there was always reflect problems and failures, and in January was distinguished from the total loss, then I put the Tikiwiki the German part of new on on my own server

In the 3 years from February 2007 until today has the Tikiwiki 5 server moves and a few updates to survive.

There has been for over a year, a cat and mouse game with a spammer who then abandoned it.

The only person I trust the administration Tikiwiki of the time is Susanna. Because it is the only one who has worked intensively to Tikiwiki.

And what use multiple admins, if there is no clerk?

You only begin to write once, before we talk about the administration.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 11:53:35 PM by Frank »