Reload config

[AvG]

Hi guys,
Being more or less settled after moving, I have some time again for my hobbies.
I want to start with Exp8.2, but I know now already that I have to restart many times due to needed changes in the config.
I consider it as a real problem to start every time with a new map with different situations. It makes it very difficult to judge an effect of changing a parameter in the config.
Therefor my question:
- Is it possible to reload  the simuconf.tab when loading a save-file? (of course after adapting the .exe)

If no: Why not?

If yes:
- A very great improvement for those people that spend lots of time on finding the right values for data in that simuconf.tab
- Better posibilities for reuse interesting maps.

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[jamespetts]

AvG,

thank you for your post. The system for parsing simuconf.tab is the same in Experimental as it is in Standard: I try to avoid divergence between the two where there is not a compelling reason to diverge. In all versions of Simutrans, simuconf.tab is saved with a saved game. The idea, I think, is so as not to disrupt the balance of existing games when starting new games with existing settings.

The problem is perhaps more that the existing settings are not well-balanced. What do you normally have in your settings that is different from those supplied with Simutrans-Experimental?

[AvG]

Hi James,
Sorry for the late response.
I am a little bit puzzled by your answer. Maybe you did not understand exactly what I had in mind.
So again in a bit more detail, what I have in mind.

Starting Simutrans is done via Start or Load-button in the opening screen.

Start >> loading all necessary files, a.o Config.tab from the Pak128-folder.

Load >> loading all necessary files but without the fore-mentioned config.tab, because the config-values are already part of the save-file.

My proposal: Expand the load-procedure with loading and overwriting from the config.tab.

I THINK this is a very simple job of copying a few lines from the start-procedure into the load-procedure.

Question A: Is it realy such an easy job?

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[prissi]

You can call the setting tool by editing menuconf.tab, if you are using a recent nightly.

Just add an entry like "dialog_tool[27]=,n" and the setting dialoge will appear when pressing "n". You can then reload the simuconf.tab or change any setting. Note, that some settings will require to save and reload your game (like changing the halt catchment radius.)

[jamespetts]

The feature that Prissi mentions is in 8.2.

[AvG]

Hi James, Prissi

If your answers mean that my question(proposal) already has been solved, it is realy very good news.
Less good news is the fact that after studying the latest downloads (Exp8.2 + Britain-Exp0.6) I still do NOT know what to do.

Suppose I start a new scenario.
After 10 years I discover a village-growth not to my liking, so I want to change growthfactor_villages=100 into f.i. 200
Can anybody tell me how to proceed to make this possible?
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[AvG]

James,
I added exactly according Prissis instructions the line dialog_tool[27]=,n"
Starting a scenario and pressing n gives only the key-table.
I realy am stuck.
Please, please give a small example of how to change a comfigvariable in a running scenario.
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[jamespetts]

AvG,

the code in this area is the same as in Simutrans-Standard - I haven't actually looked into that aspect of things myself. Prissi would know more than I do about this aspect of the game. I did not originally think that one could change settings mid-way through a game.

[AvG]

Prissi,
You are my last hope.
Could you make a small example of how to change a config-variable? (f.i. cost_alter_land=1000)
Please help me out!!!
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[prissi]

One a new game: ex te extended configurations.

On an existing game: Edit menuconf.tab by adding
dialog_tool[27]=,n

If you press n in the game, the extended settings will appear. Edit the cost should have direct affect on the game. FOr other settings you may need to save and reload.

EDIT: This works in a recent nightly in standard. I have no idea of experimental. Here I cannot support you.

[Isaac Eiland-Hall]

James said two posts up that the code is the same as Standard, so hopefully it should work.

[AvG]

Prissi,
This is what I did:
Using Standard 102.2.2
Added dialog_tool[27]=,n
Started a scenario.
Pressed n >> Keyboard help  NO appearance of extended settings.
Saved the game.
Changed a config-variable.
Loaded the game, but not the desired change of the variable.

Question: You wrote: "This works in a recent nightly build in standard."

Is it possible that the feature is not implemented in 102.2.2 ?
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[Isaac Eiland-Hall]

Nightly builds can be found here:

http://nightly.simutrans-germany.com/

[AvG]

Isaac, Prissi, James,

Thank you all for your help.
Looked at Isaacs link and downloaded 102.3-3666
The dialog-tool[27] was still there.
Start a scenario and press n.
Halleluja. No Keyboard-help but a small settings-screen.

Conclusion:
This is a new feature that is not implemented in official released versions of Standard and Exp.

James: Any idea when it will be usable in Exp ?
Do you also have nightly builds?
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[jamespetts]

AvG,

we do not have nighly binary builds for Experimental as there is no sufficient way of differentiating them from release builds for the Linux platform, which are built automatically. It would be good if somebody could set up automatic nightly builds for Experimental, however, although a question would arise as to which branch to use, as Experimental uses Git with a multiple branch structure.

The next release of Experimental will be 9.0. However, I had thought that this feature had been implemented in 8.2 (and, indeed, as far back as 8.0). If you can compile the code yourself, you can pull the code from the -devel branch and compile that.

Edit: The "n" key does not bring up the dialogue in Experimental (probably because of divergent settings files), but it can be accessed through the menu, from the "new world" dialogue and "settings".

[AvG]

James,
I have the settings-menu found, but can't realy use it.
In Standard start a scenario; press n and change a variable(f.i alter_land or bits_per_month); the moment you  click away the settings-menu the variable is used with the new value. After saving and loading you still have the new value. So I get exactly what I started this thread for.

In Exp, with your way to get the settings-menu, I can alter the values in the menu, but I can"t find a way to get the new value into the RUNNING scenario. Also saving and reloading gives the old values.
Can you confirm this?
Do you have any idea of a release-date of 9.0 ?
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[jamespetts]

Hmm, I was not aware that the behaviour in Experimental is different to Standard - it is certainly not intended to be. I shall have to class this as a bug for the time being, in that case, and investigate.

As to 9.0 - I am not sure of a release schedule at this stage, as my priority is to get a new release of Pak128.Britain-Ex out first. 9.0 won't solve this problem until I track it down and fix it, however, and I don't know how long that that will take.

In the meantime, to make sure that there is not some difference between the way in which the settings dialogue works depending on how it is invoked, can you check to see whether the new values are applied in Standard as soon as you change the settings when you access the settings menu from the new game menu in the same way as you did from Experimental?

Thank you very much for your report of this issue; I shall be interested to know your test outcomes.

[AvG]

James,
The behaviour of nightly Standard is, when calling the settings-menu via New Map, the same as in Exp. So not useable for value-changing in a running game.
It seems values are not taken from the running scenario, but from the config-file.
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[jamespetts]

Thank you very much for testing - that is helpful. In which case, the only thing that needs to be done for Experimental is to add "dialog_tool[27]=,n" to simuconf.tab, which I will be doing in advance of the next release, but you can also do manually to get the same effect as you have seen in Standard.

Thank you very much for pursuing this issue - most helpful :-)

[AvG]

James,
Looking at your last answer, I think you misunderstood me.
Using the settings-menu means you have to start a new scenario.
Using the dialog-tool gives the opportunity to change values in a RUNNING scenario. This is perfect implemented in Standard nightly 102.3.1366

I am setting up an Italy-scenario in EXP8.2 starting in 1750 with almost standard config.
After a month it turns out:
- A city-house cost less than 500. The stable however, which should be no more than a bigger barn in the country, cost 8000. With a starting capital of 20K I have to bring that better in line.
- Towns are growing like hell. Even WITHOUT action in that town. In Standard my experience is: No action > nogrowth at all. I like that a lot more.
Need to change the towngrowth-factors.

Every time, in cases like this I have to start a new scenario. A terrible waist of time.

If you are able to copy that feature from Standard and implement in an inbetween release it would be just marvellous.
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[jamespetts]

I did understand that you want to change the values in a running scenario - but you have to add the relevant key binding to menuconf.tab (which I should have written instead of simuconf.tab above) in order to be able to access the tool to allow you to do so. However, in recent testing, I have found serious bugs in the Experimental settings for that system, which I have fixed on my -devel branch, so it is best not to do this until I release the next version. An interim release is, unfortunately, not practical.

[AvG]

I am still not very good at that branch-system.
Can I download your latest .exe from that devel-branche like a nightly in Standard?
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[jamespetts]

AvG,

ahh, unfortunately, there isn't a nightly system for Experimental at present.

[AvG]

Yeh, you have said that before. No nightlies for Exp.
But the question was: is it possible to download from that devel-branche?
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[jamespetts]

The only thing that can be downloaded from the -devel branch is the source code, not the executable binary.

[sdog]

You can call the setting tool by editing menuconf.tab, if you are using a recent nightly.

Just add an entry like "dialog_tool[27]=,n" and the setting dialoge will appear when pressing "n". You can then reload the simuconf.tab or change any setting. Note, that some settings will require to save and reload your game (like changing the halt catchment radius.)

thanks prissi, i've been looking for this for almost an hour, i remember doing it but forgot how!

[AvG]

James,
I understand that a special nightly system for Exp is to costly because of the needed server cap.
We have to wait now until the next release. In the meantime  we can't use Exp because of the found errors.
I hope and think that you will have now already a better useable .exe, which is not official.
What about calling that .exe a beta version? Give it a number (like 3,0 beta 1) and make it downloadable from Git. If you have there allways the latest 2 or 3 versions, it does not use a lot of server-cap and we can assist you with QA.
If one has to wait to long, it is possible that interest will be lost!!
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[jamespetts]

AvG,

I am having some trouble following your last post - what do you mean by "needed server cap" here? I am also not sure what you mean when you refer to Git - one can always download the latest source code from the Github repository, but it cannot sensibly be used to host binaries.

The real difficulty is that my time is limited, so I have not really been able to do much with Simutrans recently (whether it be to compile unofficial binaries - which are just as likely to have a large number of new bugs that have not yet been fixed - see the various posts about bugs in the 9.x branch now - or to release a stable version), and I take the view that working towards releasing a well-functioning 9.0 by the end of the year is the goal to which my limited resources should primarily be dedicated.

[AvG]

James,
Cap is short for capacity.
I do NOT see why you can not put your latest binary (.exe) in the Github repository.
If you go on this way, I can predict, especially when you have not much time, that Exp 9.0 will have errors that can be avoided by using beta-testing.
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[inkelyad]

I do NOT see why you can not put your latest binary (.exe) in the Github repository.

Sorry, version control system is very bad place to put final binary. It will remember and store all versions. I don't want to download it all with git clone, for example.

[sdog]

compiling seems to be quite some work in windows, at least when i judge from what i read so far.

Cross compiling for minGW isn't trivial for the first time either i think. The makefile seems tobe set up nicely already, so this could lower the obstacle a bit.

[jamespetts]

I am very much hoping that the beta testing issue can be solved by using nightly builds at some point, but that has not been set up yet.

[sdog]

perhaps this could help you Ad?

[AvG]

sdog,
I checked the link and downloaded a file of 1,35 MB. File-type .7z. I can only handle .zip and .rar.
If that file is compareable to a Standard-nightly, it would indeed solve a lot of problems.
What do you need to handle that file-type?

I have downloaded MS Visual C++ 2010 Express in order to be able to compile these .exe's myself. I know however that this will be very difficult for me.
Can this compiler, expanded with the right include-files, do the job?
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[inkelyad]

7z is 7-zip file extension.

[AvG]

So I can unpack 7z-files now.
Doing that with the downloaded file I get 2 .exe-files. (1,8 MB and 3,3 MB)
The small first one gives after opening only a fatal error (loadsave)
The 2nd one however is useable. I can start maps up to 1792X1792, but that takes a lot of time, even with only 1 town, 1 industry and no rivers.
Pressing n leeds to the settings-menu; seems to work too.
The only problem is the use of a height-map. After a long waiting time I get the message: Fatal error. Some index is out of bounds. Exp8,2 has no problems with this map.
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BTW: Also in Exp8.2: Minimap outzoming via arrows max 4. Via mousewheel max 8. On big maps 8 is very usefull.

[sdog]

have you deleted settings.xml and/or settings-experimental-debug.xml in your simutrans directory before testing?

[AvG]

No, I never have deleted such files.
I also think I never have seen such files in the Simutrans environment.
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[sdog]

when using a new version you sometimes have to delete those files, as they are not compatible anymore. You can delete them without problems, it stores only things like the language you set and what values you used last time for terrain creation.

[AvG]

Tried a couple of other heightmaps.
Every heightmap gives the same fatal error : array2d_tpl<T>::at() index out of bounds .............
AvG