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A snippet of relative pricing information

Started by jamespetts, December 29, 2010, 08:02:08 PM

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jamespetts

Some information on stage coaches from this archived source:

Quote
Following Mr Palmer's innovations there were improvements to the design of coaches and in the roads which helped rapidly improve the speed of coach trips and while the coaching industry boomed from 1820-30 and created many bankrupts and few millionaires.

The coaches of this new age had stages that averaged 8-10 miles in distance or about an hour in travel time - they tended to have longer stages for longer routes so while the London to Edinburgh route the stages averaged 14 miles, London to Brighton the average was about 10 miles.

There were numerous costs, for instance, coaching operators rarely owned their own coaches, instead they leased them from Coachbuilders at a charge per "double mile" (that is the distance to and from a place). In 1830 it cost around 130-150 pounds to build a stage coach. Each route demanded at least 4 coaches, an up coach, a down coach and a spare at each end in case of breakdown so the Tally Ho, or The Age were not one vehicle but many. Also the names would be used on many different routes and by different proprietors (such as the Tally Ho).Then there was cost of stabling, taxes on the coach, coachmen and guards to be paid, and road tolls. It was estimated that coach must make some 4 -5 pounds per double mile on average to survive.
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jamespetts

According to this Wikipedia article, the Leyland Titan PD2/20 double decker 'bus was advertised as achieving 9.75mpg in daily service in the late 1950s.
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jamespetts

According to Railway Construction by William Hemmingway Mills, published in 1910,

Quote from: William Hemmingway[/url
Some tunnels for double line have been constructed in good ground, and under favourable circumstances as to building materials and labour, for as low as £32 per lineal yard; while others, carried out under adverse conditions, have cost as much as £150 per lineal yard. A medium somewhere between the two should represent the cost of tunnel-work through ground which does not present any special difficulty. At the same time it must be borne in mind that simple tunnelling which can be done in one locality for £50 or £60 per lineal yard, would be increased 20, 30, or 40 per cent. in another, where building material for the lining is scarce and expensive.

That book also gives the material only cost per mile of laying various types of railway. This does not include labour cost, but will accurately show the difference in cost between different grades of railway, as it is the material cost that differs in those cases.

Steel bullhead rail of 90lb/yard: £1,589/10s/10d
Steel bullhead rail of 85lb/yard: £1,477/11s/8d
Steel bullhead rail of 80lb/yard: £1,403/3s/7d
Steel bullhead rail of 75lb/yard: £1,342/2s/5d
Steel bullhead rail of 70lb/yard: £1,257/19s/14d
Steel bullhead rail of 65lb/yard: £1,140/3s/6d
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jamespetts

#248
Some information on tram fares: from this website:

Quote
Local tram fares in 1906

Horns Cross - Bexleyheath
   

4d

Horns Cross - Crayford Bridge
   

3d

Milestone Road - Bexleyheath
   

3d

Horns Cross - Bull Hotel (Dartford)
   

2d

Milestone Road - Maiden Lane
   

2d

Bull Hotel (Dartford) - Crayford Gas Works
   

2d

West Hill School (Dartford) - Crayford Bridge
   

1d

Crayford Bridge - Bexleyheath
   

1d

Dartford Station - Fulwich Street
   

1d

Dartford Station - Maiden Lane
   

1d

Dartford Station - Wilmington
   

1d

Workman's fare - half the above rate.

Incidentally, Crayford Bridge to Bexleyheath is about 1.8 miles, so the tram fare would have been 1d for 1.8 miles, or half this for workmen.

Edit: According to Wikipedia, early horse trams in London (1860s) had fares of 1d/mile, with half price fares for workmen.

Edit 2: According to this ticket issued by London United Tramways somewhere between 1900 and 1910, a tram fare from Hampton Court to Shepherd's Bush was 4d. The distance between those two points is 13.01km (8.08 miles), giving a fare of about 0.5d (or £0.002083) per mile.

Edit 3: Some more useful information on the history of passenger railway fares from W. M. Ackworth's Elements of Railway Economics:

Quote
The Cheap Trains Act of 1844—to cite it by its common name, though in fact it dealt with many other subjects—required every company to run one train a day for the whole length of its line, calling at all stations, at a speed of not less than 12 miles an hour, and at fares of not more than Id. per mile. The fares in third-class carriages on these trains, known to an earlier generation as ' parliamentary trains were exempt from the tax of 5 per cent, charged on all other fares. But for many years after 1844 by all other trains the third-class fares were at the rate of 1 1\4d. or 1 1\2d. per mile. Gradually, the fares for third-class passengers on all trains by which they were carried were reduced to the parliamentary level; and the penny-a-mile passengers were admitted more and more to the faster trains. Finally, in 1872 the Midland Railway took the plunge and announced that in future third-class passengers would be carried on every train. The companies on either side of the Midland were compelled to follow suit immediately, and within a few years the other companies fell into line.

...

Modern railway Acts have fixed statutory maxima of 3d., 2d., and Id. per mile for three classes respectively. But first-class fares of 3d. had long been obsolete for practical purposes; the fares in fact ranged between 2 1\2d. and 1 1\2d. The second class itself is obsolete. The third-class 1d. only registered what the companies had conceded of their own accord.

Edit 4

Further, on p. 207, Ackworth writes,

QuoteThe railway returns for 1923 show that, whereas the nominal ordinary fare is 2 \d. per mile first-class and 1 1/2d. third-class, in fact the average sum received per passenger-mile for all classes at full fares is only about 1.4 d. Moreover, so large a proportion of the first-class travel is not on ordinary tickets, but on season or traders' tickets, that the average receipt per first-class passenger-mile is only Id. Similarly in the third class, workmen's and season tickets bring down the average from 1 1\2d. to 0.93d. Taking the total of all classes and all descriptions of ticket, we find that the average fare paid per mile travelled is at present 0.935d. In other words the actual fare paid per passenger-mile is only 62 per cent, of the ordinary third-class fare. 1 If we assumed that the same ratio existed before the war between the standard third-class penny and the average fare paid per mile for all travel, the latter figure would have been 0.62d. But the average fare paid is undoubtedly nearer the ordinary third-class fare now than it was before the war. For a good many of the cheapest fares have been suppressed, and workmen's and excursion fares have been steeply raised. So it is safe to assume that the average fare received by the railways for carrying a passenger a mile was not in 1914 more than 0.55d.
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PJMack

I searched through the Wikipedia articles on railway viaducts in the UK.  Below is a chart of all the ones with pricing listed that I could find.  Unfortunately there is not much in the way of correlations.  All sources Wikipedia (should all be searchable by name; "viaduct" removed from name in below table).

Viaduct Type Foundation Year cost at time length (m) height (m) cost per km cost per km 1900 aprx
Sankey Stone dry 1828 £45,000.00 183 21 £245,901.64 £199,000.00
Dutton stone dry 1836 £54,000.00 457 18 £118,161.93 £109,000.00
Penkridge Stone dry 1837 £6,000.00 82 £73,170.73 £66,000.00
Victoria Stone dry 1838 £40,338.00 247 37 £163,311.74 £147,000.00
Willington Dene Timber on Stone dry 1839 £25,000.00 319 23 £78,369.91 £66,000.00
Stockport Viaduct brick dry 1840 £72,000.00 547 34 £131,627.06 £109,000.00
Ouse Valley brick dry 1842 £38,500.00 450 £85,555.56 £78,000.00
Usk timber wet 1848 £20,000.00 366 £54,644.81 £53,000.00
Chappel brick dry 1849 £32,000.00 320 £100,000.00 £103,000.00
Yarm Stone dry 1849 £44,500.00 690 20 £64,492.75 £66,000.00
Knaresborough Stone dry 1851 £9,803.00 80 24 £122,537.50 £138,000.00
Hengoed Stone dry 1854 £20,000.00 260 37 £76,923.08 £68,000.00
Crumlin Wrought Iron trestle dry 1857 £62,000.00 500 61 £124,000.00 £114,000.00
Belah Lattice truss dry 1857 £31,630.00 317 60 £99,779.18 £92,000.00
Grosvenor Bridge metal arch wet 1859 £84,000.00 283.5 £296,296.30 £302,000.00
Kingsland brick dry 1861 £1,000,000.00 3.00E+03 £333,333.33 £322,000.00
Ribblehead Stone and Brick dry 1869 £343,318.00 400 32 £858,295.00 £830,000.00
Scotswood Railway Bridge Wrought Iron Beam wet 1871 £20,000.00 212 £94,339.62 £90,000.00
Welland brick dry 1878 £12,000.00 1166 £10,291.60 £10,000.00
Fledborough brick dry 1897 £65,000.00 814 £79,852.58 £85,000.00
Glenfinnan cement arch dry 1898 £18,904.00 380 30 £49,747.37 £53,000.00
King Edward VII Bridge Lattice on stone pier wet 1906 £500,000.00 350 34 £1,428,571.43 £1,414,000.00
Queen Alexandra Bridge Truss on Stone wet 1909 £450,000.00 274 26 £1,642,335.77 £1,590,000.00
Carnon stone wet 1933 £40,000.00 230 29 £173,913.04 £101,000.00
Queen Elizabeth II Bridge Truss on concrete wet 1978 £4,900,000.00 352.7 25 £13,892,826.76 £648,000.00

jamespetts

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jamespetts

For reference, I have added your bridge information to my spreadsheet, as shown here:


I have ordered them by normalised price. There are a few anomalies (e.,g. the Welland bridge), but there is a fairly general pattern, albeit with considerable variation, I presume with geography.
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PJMack

The Welland Viaduct had the bricks made on site, which could account for the cost saving, however it is more likely to simply be an erroneous figure, as the citation for it is a secondary source without other source listings.

The Kingsland vaiduct was through and urban area displacing 4500 people, so land cost would have been rather high.

The Ribblehead Viaduct was in the middle of nowhere, and a temporary town built for it's construction.  Over 100 workers died during construction.

The Hongoed Viaduct had an onsite quarry for stone works according to the Wikipedia page, however this is with failed verification of the source.

I did also find a few errors in material listings.  The Pankridge viaduct is actually mostly brick with stone decorative elements (it looks like stone from a distance).  The Yarm Viaduct had two stone arches and 41 brick ones.  (The Yarm Viaduct page also gives wages of 1 Pound Per Day).

For listing wet or dry, I went with the majority of the pillars.  I considered the edges of rivers to be dry.

It can also be noted that the vast majority of listings are for double lanes of track, so for simutrans we may need to half these values.

Again, all sources Wikipedia, so take this information with a grain of salt.

jamespetts

Ahh, I had not realised that you had not accounted for the number of tracks as I had with the Hanwell viaduct. I will have to halve the figures.
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wlindley

Note that a double-track bridge steel truss bridge will use not much more steel than a single-track bridge (having identical vertical elements), but that the site preparation, materials transportation, and labor cost to build either one will often be only moderately higher. These things are not linear -- the Firth of Forth bridge would not have cost much less to build as a one-track structure, but building it three tracks wide might have inflated the cost tremendously.

PJMack

Quote from: wlindley on January 15, 2022, 11:32:41 AMNote that a double-track bridge steel truss bridge will use not much more steel than a single-track bridge (having identical vertical elements), but that the site preparation, materials transportation, and labor cost to build either one will often be only moderately higher. These things are not linear -- the Firth of Forth bridge would not have cost much less to build as a one-track structure, but building it three tracks wide might have inflated the cost tremendously.
It was also often common to build a double track bridge on a single track line to cut the costs of future expansion according to Railway Construction by William Hemmingway Mills.  The reason we are halving the values is that in simutrans is is currently only possible (even with the pier system) to produce elevated ways and bridges for a single line of track.  A double line would require two bridges or sets of elevated ways to build, twice as much as reality.  It may be possible to have bridges and viaducts parallel and adjacent to others be discounted (as it is with forge costs) however that would add another layer of complexity, not only in pakset design and balancing but in the coding as well.

jamespetts

There is probably much to be said for using the forge cost discounting system for bridges, as, without it, single track bridges will be excessively cheap or double track bridges excessively expensive, distorting incentives.
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PJMack

I did some online window shopping and thought the results relevant:
A basic bus stop would cost about $30-$50 for the sign plus another ~$30 for the mounting hardware, which would translate to about half a pound in 1900 plus 10 minutes of cheap labor (per side of road).  Adding a bench would cost an additional grand (average price on grainger.com) plus installation, or about 6 pounds in 1900.  A pre-assembled bus shelter with bench and lights from Grainger would cost 15-18 grand depending on size, which would equate to about 100 pounds in 1900.

jamespetts

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PJMack

A few aqueduct costs from wikipedia:

The River Cart Aqueduct: Stone, Flyboat canal
£5440 in 1810, 9.1m long (~£383,000/km in 1900)

Pontcysyllte Aqueduct: Iron, 12ft wide, 5ft 3in deep
£47,000 in ~1800, 307m long (~£153,000/km in 1900)

Lune Aqueduct: Stone, 20ft wide
£50,000 in ~1795, 202m long (~£243,000/km in 1900)

New Semington Aqueduct: Concrete, 5.4m wide, 2m deep
£12M (total project, see article) in 2004, 30m long (~5M/km in 1900)

PJMack

I found a 1910 book on construction and maintenance costs.  All prices are in US Dollars and are intended for American works, however there are a few English, Scottish, and Irish examples.
https://books.google.com/books?id=sj87AAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA528&dq=cost%20to%20repoint%20brick%20viaduct&pg=PA528#v=onepage&q&f=false

PJMack

Some costs of tunnels in the UK:
URL Tunnel Type cost length year Cost 1900 Cost Per Meter 1900 underwater method
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudley_Tunnel Dudley Tunnel narrow boat 9700 2900 1779 13,729.23 4.73 no
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primrose_Hill_Tunnel Primrose Hill Tunnel 2 tracks 120000 9700 1837 109,306.93 11.27 no bored
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standedge_Tunnels Standedge Canal Tunnel canal narrowboat 160000 4979 1810 102,222.22 20.53 no
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodhead_Tunnel Woodhead 1 track 200000 4840 1839 168,807.34 34.88 no gunpowder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standedge_Tunnels Standedge Rail Tunnel single track 201000 4880 1846 190,639.18 39.07 no
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blea_Moor_Tunnel Blea Moor Tunnel 2 tracks 109000 2404 1875 102,326.53 42.57 no dynamite
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thackley_Tunnel Thackley Tunnel 2 tracks 68000 1200 1845 67,268.82 56.06 no
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colwall_Tunnels Colwall New Tunnel single track 196080 1432 1926 97,510.05 68.09 no pnumatic tools
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summit_Tunnel Summit Tunnel 2 tracks 251000 2638 1841 211,853.21 80.31 no
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milford_Tunnel Milford Tunnel 2 tracks 93122 783 1840 77,182.20 98.57 no
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherton_Tunnel_Branch_Canal Netherton Tunnel Branch Canal barge canal 302000 2768 1858 343,012.35 123.92 no
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilsby_Tunnel Kilsby_tunnel 2 tracks 320000 2216 1838 288,627.45 130.25 no
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodhead_Tunnel Woodhead 3 2 tracks 4300000 4888 1953 976,790.12 199.83 no
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_line Victoria Line 2 single track tube 56000000 21000 1962 9,720,754.72 462.89 yes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islington_Tunnel Islington tunnel canal tunnel 700000 878 1818 487,878.79 555.67 no
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherhithe_Tunnel Rotherhithe tunnel 2 lane road 1000000 1482 1908 978,723.40 660.41 yes tunneling shield
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_Cross_Tunnel Clay Cross Tunnel Rail 140000 1631 1839 1,181,651.38 724.50 no
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwall_Tunnel Blackwall Tunnel (Old) 2 lane road 1400000 1350 1897 1,480,459.77 1,096.64 yes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Tunnel Thames Tunnel pedestrian->single track 454000 396 1843 469,303.37 1,185.11 yes tunneling shield
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queensway_tunnel Queensway Tunnel 4 lanes 8000000 3240 1930 4,254,335.26 1,313.07 yes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brynglas_Tunnels Brynglas tunnels 2x 2 lane road 3000000 360 1962 520,754.72 1,446.54 no
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindhead_Tunnel Hindhead Tunnel 2 x 2 lane 155000 1 2011 1,536.97 1,536.97 no mechanical diggers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartford_Crossing Dartford Western Crossing 2 Lane Road 13000000 1430 1963 2,214,814.81 1,548.82 yes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clyde_Tunnel Clyde Tunnel 2x 2 lane road 10000000 762 1963 1,703,703.70 2,235.83 yes tunneling shield
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limehouse_Link_tunnel Limehouse Link Tunnel 2x 2 lane road 293000000 1800 1993 4,856,061.97 2,697.81 yes cut and cover
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel Channel Tunnel 2 single track tunnels 9000000000 50000 1988 196,348,114.77 3,926.96 yes TBM

jamespetts

Excellent, thank you for that. The tunnel costs table does not seem to be well aligned on the forum - if this is from a spreadsheet, would you be able to upload this to allow for easier reference? Thank you.
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PJMack

You're Welcome.  This was a spreadsheet.  Before the forum update and theme change, it would have been easier to copy and past that snippet into a spreadsheet.  Now, apparently you need to use CNTL+SHFT+V in LibreOffice, select unformatted text, make sure only tab separation is selected, then click OK.  The idea behind using a code snippet was to allow it to be at least semi-readable by cell phones.  The forum does not allow attaching CSV or binary spreadsheet files without encapsulation in a compression format.

jamespetts

Excellent, thank you for that. Now imported.
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jamespetts

A contribution from Octavius in another thread:

Quote from: OctaviusTo give you some numbers, construction cost of Maasvlakte 2 in the Netherlands was 3 billion euros or about 2.5 billion pounds in the period 2008-2013 for 15 square kilometres of land plus 5 square kilometres of water that had to be dredged to 25 metres. This included seawalls, beaches and basic rail, road and water infrastructure, but not the actual port facilities constructed there. So that's about 170 million pounds per square kilometre. The used construction method was supplying a big pile (275 million cubic metres) of sand using ships.

Another data point is the Noordoostpolder, constructed between 1936-1942 for about 125 million guilders or 12 million pounds. That included dikes, pumping stations, canals and basic road infrastructure. Surface area is about 500 square kilometres, so that's about 24 thousand pounds per square kilometre. The construction method was a polder: build a dike around it, then pump the water out. Unfortunately for Simutrans purposes, with that construction method, cost doesn't really scale with surface area. 
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Octavius

#266
Quote from: PJMack on January 16, 2022, 03:36:43 AMIt was also often common to build a double track bridge on a single track line to cut the costs of future expansion according to Railway Construction by William Hemmingway Mills. ...
Indeed. Most large railway bridges built in the Netherlands in 1860–1880 (when most of the main lines were built) had bridgeheads and pillars (made of stone or brick) designed for double track, but iron spans for a single track. A second single-track bridge could later be built alongside. In some cases it was never doubled though.
Quote from: wlindley on January 15, 2022, 11:32:41 AMNote that a double-track bridge steel truss bridge will use not much more steel than a single-track bridge (having identical vertical elements), ...
Not only the vertical elements. Take the railway bridge across the river Lek at Kuilenburg (now using the more archaic spelling Culemborg), built 1863–1868. Its 154 metre main span made it the longest span railway bridge in the world at that time. See some images on Wikimedia commons. It was made of iron and 700 metres long in total. At such a long span and with materials available back then, the compressive elements would buckle if the bridge had been narrower than 10 metres, so the bridge was made wide enough for double track, although only one track was built at first. Construction cost (to stay on-topic) was 3.3 million Dutch guilders or 275,000 pounds stirling, expensive enough that private companies never managed to raise money for a large railway network in the Netherlands. That had to wait until parliament made public money available in 1860.

Some other numbers I found in some books here:
– Construction cost of the original Moerdijk railway bridge was a little over 4 million Dutch guilders or about 350,000 pounds stirling. The bridge had stone pillars and iron spans, 14 spans of 104 metres each, a swing bridge and some earthen dams for a total length of 2500 metres. Most of the cost was in the pillars and iron spans. It was single track, but the pillars were already wide enough for the modern double track bridge.
– The Noordholland Canal is an early ship canal, constructed 1819–1824. 80km long, locks are 65m long, 15m wide, 5.5m deep, two sea locks at the ends and two intermediate locks. Construction cost was 11 million Dutch guilders or 920,000 pounds stirling.
– The Maastunnel is an immersed tunnel crossing the river at Rotterdam. The width is three roadways: two tubes with a two-lane road each and one tube with a footpath on top of a bikepath. The road surface is about 20 metres below the water surface. Constructed 1937–1942, 1070 metres long, construction cost 19.4 million Dutch guilders. Exchange rates were a bit volatile in those days, but it must have been equivalent to about 1.8 million pounds stirling.
– The Velsertunnel, a two-tube, four-lane road tunnel under the North Sea Canal, 768 metres long, was constructed in 1952-1957 at a cost of 130 million Dutch guilders or 12 million pounds stirling. It's a cut-and-cover tunnel, not an immersed tunnel, despite crossing under a large ship canal. It had something to do with managing groundwater salinity. The road surface is 23 metres below the water surface.
– The Albulatunnel in Switserland was constructed for 7.2 million Swiss francs or 290,000 pounds stirling. Construction lasted from 1899–1903. It's a narrow gauge (1 metre), single track railway tunnel, but quite large for narrow gauge: 4.5 metres wide, 5 metres high, 5865 metres long.
– The nearby bridge at Wiesen, a stone bridge, 210 metres long, 55 metre main span, single track narrow gauge rail, was constructed in 1906–1908 for 324,000 Swiss francs or 12,900 pounds stirling.

jamespetts

Some potentially interesting maintenance and operational information from a book on British Rail electric trains whose title I omitted to record.

The BR class 313 (inner suburban) had an acceleration rate of 0.79 meters per second squared and have a braking rate of 0.92 meters per second squared, with a top speed of 75 mph. The BR class 312 (outer suburban) units had an acceleration rate of 0.4 meters per second squared and a top speed of 90mph.

In the late 1970s, at Hornsey depot, which serviced class 312s and 313s, units would come in for maintenance every 14 days, including checking of underframe equipment, brakes and pantographs. A 42 day examination at the end of 3 14 day periods adds a further series of checks, including traction motors and auxiliary machines as well as gauging of tyres. There are even more detailed examinations every 84 days and the units have a visit to the main works every 2 years.

Brake pads on class 312s were said to have had a life of 25,500km on motor coaches and 55,700km on trailers, compared to 3,200km and 18,000km respectively for cast iron blocks in similar service. Class 313s with rheostatic braking (which thus used the brake pads less) had lives of 19,300km and 45,000km between renewals respectively.

The 313s were said to run 260,000 miles in a four week period.
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