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Author Topic: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk  (Read 56249 times)

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Offline Ashley

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #210 on: July 18, 2012, 11:48:52 PM »
I've restarted this one too.

Offline yorkeiser

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #211 on: August 14, 2012, 08:42:25 PM »
Hi Timothy, game has suddenly become slow and laggy by yesterday, maybe server/game needs to shutdown and restart?

Offline Ashley

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #212 on: August 14, 2012, 09:02:49 PM »
I'll try restarting it then...

Offline Ashley

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #213 on: September 01, 2012, 03:39:33 PM »
I'm amazed by the development, players even setting up their own rules on the servers, and working together. This latest map someone has even reclaimed land from the sea to expand onto... I think due to the popularity of the pak128 servers I'm going to have to look into having two of them running.

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #214 on: September 01, 2012, 04:07:59 PM »
could you or one of the players elaborate what you/they did or what rules you set up or what kind of co-op play you established?

Offline Kevin Ar18

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #215 on: September 04, 2012, 10:48:22 PM »
could you or one of the players elaborate what you/they did or what rules you set up or what kind of co-op play you established?
Getting an account:
* Added a password to all the "free accounts" and told people to read the chat in order to get the account.  Why? There was two basic problems: 1) Players would get an account and never play or only play for one day, then stop playing.  This used up several slots that real players could have used.  2) Very few people know how to use the chat in Simutrans, or find it rather difficult to use.  By forcing them to know where the chat is before they get an account, it increases the chances they will actually communicate with other players in-game.

Rules:
not so much rules as things that sometimes cause conflict in games.  Really, I guess it boils down to: don't steal passenger/goods from another player.
* Don't duplicate someone else's passenger & mail system in a city.  (Basically it amounts to: don't steal passenger & mail from another player by copying their lines.)  Another reason is that some players really enjoy developing a city using passenger & mail, so it makes sense for only one player to handle one city in that case.
* Don't copy a factory or industry where someone else is already transporting 100%.  (Again, this is basically the same as the first point: not stealing goods from other players.)  Since Simutrans has a max amount that can be delivered or produced, it is not possible for many players to use the same factory without it adversely affecting the other players.  Of course, this isn't a fixed rule.  For example, it makes sense to share during the first week of the game ... or sometimes a player only needs one of the goods, so someone else can get or deliver the other good(s).

Things done in game:
* Someone added a public airport so players can exchange passenger & mail -- makes it very easy for anyone to start a passenger & mail system.
* Added a lot of land to the map.  The map used to have a lot of water, but new players needed somewhere to build, so it was filled in.
* Added a lot more cities to the map so new players have a chance to transport passenger & mail and grow their own cities.
* Added a lot of power plants as needed -- because there is too little power by default.
* Built some roads and interstates around the map for anyone to use.

There are also things that need fixing:
* Currently, there are a few public stations on the map that were created by accident that are causing big problems for players.  We really need a way to get them deleted.
* The map is littered with way way way too many industries.

Suggestions for future pak128 games:
* Make the map 80%+ land so all players have somewhere to build.
* Add more cities (so more players can build passenger & mail).
* Add just a few more factories and shopping to the starting map.  Currently, there's only 1 shopping center on starting map, which is a little difficult for several players to share.
* Raise the rate at which industries appear by 8x.  For example, if factories show up everytime a city grows by 5,000, then change it to something like 40,000.  The current rate litters the map very, very quickly.
* Perhaps slow the city growth rate?
* Need many many more power plants (with high rates 9,000+) to deal with the lack of power on the map and pak128 -- or just let players build them I guess.

Problems with the game itself:
* The public station "feature" causes all kinds of problems: namely, they produce lots of stations that can never be deleted by the players.  Right now, the map has several stations causing big problems (that need to be deleted) that were made accidentally when trying to make a road public.  It would be better if there were NO public stations; instead it would be better if you could designate that some of your stations can exchange goods with certain players.
* Power: (1) Not enough power in pak128 for all the factories/players.  (2) Players can't share power with other players (3) Multiple players cannot provide power to same factory -- the only solution right now is to build a bunch of 9,000+ power plants on the map as needed, but if this is ever disabled, it will make things difficult for all players.
* Players stop playing, but there is no way to free the account so new players can build stuff there instead.
* Stations keep backing up with more and more passenger/mail/goods way beyond station capacity.  It is difficult to fix this when they are controlled by another player... and I wonder sometimes if all this might cause some lag in multiplayer.

Offline VS

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #216 on: September 05, 2012, 09:43:33 AM »
Regarding electricity, do you think power plants should produce more energy per unit? How much? This is rather easy to change, but probably depends on single-player mode results, too.

Offline prissi

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #217 on: September 05, 2012, 12:27:42 PM »
About power: The setting is electricity_promille in the simuconf.tab. With this set to 1000, the electricity output should hopefully match the demand. Currently this is default at 33% (330) to create a lack of electricity to supply factories strategically. (However, I am not sure how well this system copes with the change of electricity consumption by the new factories).

Passengers piling up at stations should not affect too much, as routing 10000 passengers to 100 destinations is not more demanding than routing 100 passengers to 100 destinations. Since the number of destinations should somewhat follow the square root, this increase is less severe as the increase from more stations (= more connections, exponentially) and more vehicles (linear).

Offline Kevin Ar18

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #218 on: September 05, 2012, 08:52:09 PM »
Regarding electricity, do you think power plants should produce more energy per unit? How much? This is rather easy to change, but probably depends on single-player mode results, too.
I, personally, prefer at least 100% ... but that's single player (and maybe another topic altogether?).  However, for multiplayer there are actually a number of problems that come up: You can't share power; some people might hoard all the power plants, some might "reserve" them for future use, sometimes it's hard to get a powerline somewhere blocked by other players, players might not provide maximum resources to power the plant.  All these problems mean you probably need a high percentage set.
The ideal solution would be to add the ability to "sell" or share power.  For example:
> Basically, you can connect to any other player's power and it auto-sells you any extra power.
* Any player can connect their powerlines to another players substation.
* Any player can build a substation next to another player's powerline and it auto-connects.
* The game automatically sells extra (unused) power to other players (you can't turn this off).
* Add a global option when you click on any powerline/substation: "don't purchase power from these players" that prevents you from ever buying power (so you don't lose money).
* Allow multiple substations to be built on same factory (first person to build one, provides as much power as they can first, second person, second, etc...)

With this power sharing, I would still suggest extra power (like 200% power?) to account for player problems that naturally occur in multiplayer where some powerplants can't be accessed by others or used to fullest extent.

In the game's current form, without power sharing, you would need to raise the percentage significantly (like 500% to 1000%) to account for all the problems of one player having too much and another too little.
Passengers piling up at stations should not affect too much, as routing 10000 passengers to 100 destinations is not more demanding than routing 100 passengers to 100 destinations. Since the number of destinations should somewhat follow the square root, this increase is less severe as the increase from more stations (= more connections, exponentially) and more vehicles (linear).
What about 10 Million spread across > 1000 stations?
In fact, this brings me to another point I didn't mention (because I really didn't want the server to get reset), but the current pak128 server as it is now would be a perfect one to study in terms of performance problems with Simutrans multiplayer.

Currently, the server has major issues with performance; nobody can stay synchronized for long ... and I don't think it is a server (machine) problem.  This might be a good game for someone to study in terms of selectively trying to narrow down the exact performance problem areas.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 09:01:27 PM by Kevin Ar18 »

Offline prissi

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #219 on: September 05, 2012, 09:06:27 PM »
Desync do to the server (or a client) running ahead/behind due to heavy load could not be mended by the software. It would rather require more safety margins in terms of timing serverside (since the server essentially dictates the lag). Because certain actions (rerouting very large stations, new month, ... ) will take long for instance on the server (since it shares several simutrans processes). Then it will try to catch up, but in between the clients may run ahead.

(A server run at 10-15% average CPU usage means it is already more or less maxed out and will not have many spare cycles needed for spawning new industry. Especially if it runs more than one instance.)

And desync due to not handling certain cases are almost impossible to find on such a large maps. Simply too many possibilities to look at.

Offline Ashley

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #220 on: September 05, 2012, 11:50:31 PM »
The map is available here, if you want to investigate further: http://entropy.me.uk/simutrans/networksavegames/sim128/sim128_r5583_pak128.open.2.1_05_09_2012.sve

I'm changing the name of this server, and so starting a new thread for it.

Offline Fifty

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #221 on: September 06, 2012, 03:28:02 AM »
I, personally, prefer at least 100% ... but that's single player (and maybe another topic altogether?).  However, for multiplayer there are actually a number of problems that come up: You can't share power; some people might hoard all the power plants, some might "reserve" them for future use, sometimes it's hard to get a powerline somewhere blocked by other players, players might not provide maximum resources to power the plant.  All these problems mean you probably need a high percentage set.

As far as I know, this 100 percent of demand would cover oil rigs, end consumers, farms, timber plantations, and many other industries that do not use power. Moreover, the practice of creating new power plants litters the map with industry chain creation that would otherwise be used to create power chains that are not nearly as extensive as, say, a shopping mall. If people are smart about electricity use (not electrifying things that don't need it!) 33% is more than enough in any netgame I've ever played. I personally dislike powering everything as it litters the map with powerlines that make building more difficult.

But, I agree, it would be nice to be able to build a public power substation of sorts that would appropriately deal with excess power between players. At the moment, the best practice is, if it can be coordinated, to use a central player for all powerlines.

Offline sdog

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #222 on: September 08, 2012, 07:24:42 AM »
Getting an account:
* Added a password to all the "free accounts" and told people to read the chat in order to get the account.  Why? There was two basic problems: 1) Players would get an account and never play or only play for one day, then stop playing.  This used up several slots that real players could have used.  2) Very few people know how to use the chat in Simutrans, or find it rather difficult to use.  By forcing them to know where the chat is before they get an account, it increases the chances they will actually communicate with other players in-game.

Rules:
not so much rules as things that sometimes cause conflict in games.  Really, I guess it boils down to: don't steal passenger/goods from another player.
* Don't duplicate someone else's passenger & mail system in a city.  (Basically it amounts to: don't steal passenger & mail from another player by copying their lines.)  Another reason is that some players really enjoy developing a city using passenger & mail, so it makes sense for only one player to handle one city in that case.
* Don't copy a factory or industry where someone else is already transporting 100%.  (Again, this is basically the same as the first point: not stealing goods from other players.)  Since Simutrans has a max amount that can be delivered or produced, it is not possible for many players to use the same factory without it adversely affecting the other players.  Of course, this isn't a fixed rule.  For example, it makes sense to share during the first week of the game ... or sometimes a player only needs one of the goods, so someone else can get or deliver the other good(s).

Are there still problems with pax/good routing over different networks*, or why are you trying to prevent competition between companies? Having players compete against each other might allow more to play without needing more cities. In other words, what's wrong when a new arrival has a better service in a particular part and reduced profitability of the established players, perhaps driving them into bankruptcy?


*with alternative routes one route took all in the past.


I've had a brief glance at the servers currently running, and it is not quite obvious how to get a login for one of the locked players. Or are they all actually being played?

Offline Kevin Ar18

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #223 on: September 10, 2012, 10:30:43 PM »
Are there still problems with pax/good routing over different networks*, or why are you trying to prevent competition between companies? Having players compete against each other might allow more to play without needing more cities. In other words, what's wrong when a new arrival has a better service in a particular part and reduced profitability of the established players, perhaps driving them into bankruptcy?
Difference in goals I suppose.  A lot of players play solely for the purpose of building something they like (even in multiplayer).  Some people like to focus on developing a particular city ... or maybe focus on a particular factory and trying to make the most efficient route that delivers the maximum.  Someone else building in the same city could potentially cut off all the passengers -- even if the newcomer develops a really aweful line that never transports anyone and the other player has a really nice, complex line that potentially transports everyone efficiently without any waiting times.  Also, if the player finds their enjoyment on developing and growing a few cities, then someone else coming in and blocking their efforts can throw days or weeks of work they put into that city down the drain.

Having the goal being competition and trying to bankrupt the other person might fit best into a different type of game -- one I've never seen in Simutrans....  Something where the goal is not to build anything nice, but to get the most income in a certain time period, bankrupt other players, and generally try to thwart the other players.  ....  Only problem, is such an alternative game would not work very well in current Simutrans.  There are things you can do to the game that would make it easy for one player to "win" in no time -- little tricks of the game because it wasn't designed for that kind of competition.

Quote
I've had a brief glance at the servers currently running, and it is not quite obvious how to get a login for one of the locked players. Or are they all actually being played?
  There are accounts available.  Just read the messages that appear when you join the game.  There is one that tells you how to proceed.  However, people like to build in this game, so I hope you won't try "competitive" play in this server. :)

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #224 on: September 10, 2012, 11:38:55 PM »
Difference in goals I suppose.  A lot of players play solely for the purpose of building something they like (even in multiplayer).  Some people like to focus on developing a particular city ... or maybe focus on a particular factory and trying to make the most efficient route that delivers the maximum.  Someone else building in the same city could potentially cut off all the passengers -- even if the newcomer develops a really aweful line that never transports anyone and the other player has a really nice, complex line that potentially transports everyone efficiently without any waiting times.

...

There are things you can do to the game that would make it easy for one player to "win" in no time -- little tricks of the game because it wasn't designed for that kind of competition.

Have you ever tried Experimental...?

Offline sdog

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #225 on: September 10, 2012, 11:56:47 PM »
Having the goal being competition and trying to bankrupt the other person might fit best into a different type of game -- one I've never seen in Simutrans....  Something where the goal is not to build anything nice, but to get the most income in a certain time period, bankrupt other players, and generally try to thwart the other players.

Well, that's quite an extreme opposite of the cooperative game. There's also something as fair competition in a game.



Quote
There are accounts available.  Just read the messages that appear when you join the game.  There is one that tells you how to proceed.  However, people like to build in this game, so I hope you won't try "competitive" play in this server.
I've seen a message telling me to go to a map position, where i found nothing. Chat was not helpful either, at one server it was almost empty, on another one it was full with a long discussion not relevant for anyone joining.


I'm certain i'd find a way to get into it. In particular as i've played online before, and know how it works in general. However i'd guess it might be awfully difficult for anyone  comming online the first time. Please bear in mind, those servers are something like the official game servers of simutrans, the first servers anyone would connect when trying out this game.


Perhaps, when you are taking the job of locking accounts, writing extensive messages, you might also write something here, and in the wiki, and most importantly provide some way to contact you while you are not in the game.

Offline Ashley

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Re: 128.simutrans.entropy.me.uk
« Reply #226 on: September 11, 2012, 06:42:32 AM »
I had hoped others might run game servers, these ones have rather become the only ones in constant operation... I guess the barrier to entry for running a game server is still too high.

There are many differing play-styles one can employ in Simutrans. I deliberately take a hands-off approach to running these servers (mostly I don't have time to log in often and see what's happening). The idea was to provide a nice taste of what online play could be like, and then hope that people would go away and set up their own servers with their own rules to enjoy the game in the way they want to. I was always happy to look into setting up servers for this purpose (e.g. the Moblet games), although it's harder for pak128 due to the rather massive memory footprint of the pakset.

I appreciate Kevin Ar18's attempts to moderate on the server, but I would encourage people to set up their own games if they want to play a certain way and to try and avoid forcing players on these servers to play in a particular manner. I'm going to try and be more proactive about regularly starting new maps in future to try and avoid the over-development which causes a lot of frustration for newer players.