deManglers test Simutrans-Experimental Server

[elthore]

im losing synchronization with the server in 1 - 2 min after joining, non-stop, all the time. I think you may want to consider reducing the map size so we can get some answers.

I question if it could it be a network issue? where is the server located? im near toronto with a pretty good connection but thats still 100-150 ping to european servers.

What is syncing here exactly? and does it need to check for it so often???

[deMangler]

The server is located in the UK.
I am in another part of the UK, with a ping of a pretty consistent 31ms. Bandwidth is not going to be a factor. I will try to pin down or eliminate anythingn else with the server that may be causing this - however the only things that have changed since last time is the binary and the map size/number of cities/number or industries, and some player activity possibly. So I reckon it is one of those, probably map size or configuration.

I have had no desynchs, although I do notice other clients disconnecting and reconnecting a lot. Much more often with this map than before.
I am using the windows binary.
I will leave it up for now until I know if James or anyone would benefit from testing anything out with the current setup.
Then I will try again with a smaller map, just to see if it is an improvement.
Meanwhile - I apologize if it is unplayable. I aim to have a playable server eventually.

dM

<edit>I just had my first desynch. Possibly the rarity of this in my case may be because I am not actually playing, by that I mean engaging in any activity that would require the player password to be input. Just 'observing' </edit>

[jamespetts]

Elthore,

desyncs can be caused, for some reason, by changing the names of lines/convoys (especially if you press "return" after doing so). Desyncs are caused in the case of Simutrans by the client and server diverging in their execution of the code, as the game runs in parallel on both the server and the client, and there are frequent checks to make sure that the two are doing the same thing.

Elthore - are you using 9.12 or 9.11? You might be able to connect with 9.11, but it will desync regularly, as the code execution will differ due to the implementation of some changes as between 9.11 and 9.12.

[dustNbone]

Not sure what if anything is different, but today the desync thing seems alot better, and responsiveness is way up.  I was alone on the server so that might have something to do with it.  Is it difficult or even possible to up the RAM on the virtual server?  Looking at the numbers, I'm thinking even another 64MB would make a huge difference.  You either have enough ram for these tasks or don't in my experience, and right now it seems that the bigger map has just nudged it over the edge, and there's alot of swapping going on.  As for having 8 cores available, simutrans doesn't seem particularly threaded in itself, but having more cores at hand is useful on a shared environment where you're doing other things with the server, as well as having spare cores to offload networking and file system maintenance tasks to, for example.  Seems to be working pretty good though, and the gradient handling in 9.12 is definetly an interesting change, and I'll say so far that it seems far more realistic than the old system. 

My $.02

Dustin

[deMangler]

Server stopped talking. Restarted with latest save (Dec 1844).

[jamespetts]

The server seems to have gone down whilst I was setting up a 'bus network in Radmouth.

[dustNbone]

That is crappy, as Radmouth needed such a bus network :(

[prissi]

Desyncs cannot be caused by renaming. However, the error wether games are in sync or not is done only at the execution of a command. Thus the sync will most likely happened beforehand. The renaming tool is totally unneded for the game state. It was just added to have the same name for every player.

[Vonjo]

To avoid desync when renaming, you can try to press ESC instead of ENTER. It works for some, like convoy and station renaming. But it doesnt work for some other, like label.

[elthore]

it was my stupid mistake, i didnt update to 9.12     
 
all better now 

[dustNbone]

Server seems to have croaked again some time last (North American) night.  Weird problem, i can't seem to replicate it at all locally.  I wonder if using cron or something to have the server save and restart at specific intervals or something would be useful.

Dustin

[prissi]

You can restart the server by cron every five minutes. If running, it will detect that the port is in use and terminate. Otherwise it will restart with the last transferred game. I used to do this, when I had my server.

[deMangler]

You can restart the server by cron every five minutes. If running, it will detect that the port is in use and terminate. Otherwise it will restart with the last transferred game. I used to do this, when I had my server.

I already do this with a cron job running every minute.
The problem is that the server does not 'crash' exactly, it just stops responding to clients. The server is still running.

The best I can think of is to use Dwachs nettool to detect if any clients are connected every half hour or so and if not then restart the server anyway. Just in case.
Or maybe if the server is in this state it will not respond to the tool, in which case detecting that will do the job.
When I have time I will set this up.
dM

[dustNbone]

That seems reasonable, if the nettool can detect connected clients then it's probably the way to go.  If you need any help shell scripting I have a little experience there.

Dustin

[prissi]

We had the problem, when server went onto pause mode. Thus pausing was removed. But if the server does not get any error message when connection to a client is lost, I am not sure how to detect this.

[elthore]

this map is getting really super busy and complicated, i sense a crash coming on. Is there any way to save the map serverside to prepare for the inevitable?

[dustNbone]

Server saves the map everytime someone logs in AFAIK.  Should be fine.

Dustin

[jamespetts]

Server has just gone down. Another client was constantly joining and leaving (possible desyncs?) whilst I was setting up a 'bus network in Radmouth. The game is therefore saved at a very recent juncture.

[elthore]

The server crashed again, I was shuffling about 12 trains from one line to another. Whenever Im adjusting lines, i get desynced. I think the crash happens when i'm accessing the schedule screen when i desync.

[elthore]

...I noticed that the train was stuck in route finding when i continued after desynch. After saving and loading this game, the train had resolved its route but i didnt check which line it was in. When I tried to change the next train's line, fatal error:
minivec_tpl<T>::[]
index out of bounds: 9 not
in 0..5

[dustNbone]

Server's up again, for now

[jamespetts]

Ahh, this looks like an instance of this bug, which I have fixed on my 9.x Github branch.

[jamespetts]

Server is down again - were people changing schedules when it went?

[deMangler]

I will be out of network coverage for two weeks between 22/07/11 - 08/08/11, because I will be camping.
During this time I will be unable to visit the forums or do much with the server.
It is possible I may be able to go on-line or ssh in with my phone but I am not relying on this because the place I am going is a bit remote.
After this I will be back able to maintain the server, and hopefully have some time to play as well...
dM

[elthore]

its gone down once more, this time with the same error as before.

a few days rest wouldn't be a bad idea, heh

....perhaps next game should be slower so everything isnt outdated between sessions.

[jamespetts]

Elthore's suggestion is sensible - covering many years in a day or two is not ideal. Perhaps for the next map we could experiment with a higher bits per month setting to see whether that works better for an online game?

And, Elthore, "the same error as before": is that relating to the error that you get when changing schedules?

[jamespetts]

Apologies to Dustnbone - I was playing as public service, trying to sort out the situation with the abandoned Radmouth Central Railway Station and allow its use for a local line to Thursand along the existing tracks, but, because it is not possible to hide railway bridges or rotate the map in network mode, I had difficulties, and ended up deleting one of your station tiles, hoping that it could be re-instated after I had converted Radmouth Central to a public stop - unfortunately, I cannot re-instate it for reasons that I do not understand, and moreover, your trains on that line can no longer find a route. I am sorry to have caused trouble; this aspect of the game (the awkwardness of elevated rail) needs to be considered very carefully, I think.

You might also want to extend your Westerly elevated rail line to Milton Library stop.

[jamespetts]

Server seems to be down again.

Edit: Or perhaps not...?

[dustNbone]

No worries about the SkyTrain, fixed and extended west, added another train.  I agree with maybe slowing things down a tad, but not too much as things like changing rolling stock on a long line like some of mine can be very time consuming, I think maybe slowing things down to 2/3 or so of what they are now would be effective.  Off topic a little, is the point to point passenger calc patch going to be a part of 9.13?  I tested it a little and it seems to clear up this issue a great deal.  I think a change like this is important for multiplayer, making competition for a smaller company more practical, as well as making larger networks with local/express services work closer to reality.  I'm glad to see things moving as quickly as they are, the gradient handling in 9.12 is much better, albeit a bunch more challenging.  I like it. 

Dustin

[jamespetts]

Glad that things are working out. As I said in online chat (and am repeating here for the benefit of anyone who may be reading): the routing patch will have to be part of 10.0, as it changes the save game format. 9.13 will likely be a few bug fixes. The feature set for 10.0 is not yet finalised, so watch this space!

[jamespetts]

Seems to be down again as of a few seconds ago.

Edit: Hmm - and seems to be back. Odd.

[dustNbone]

Ahh that was me, noticed that it wasn't responding and restarted it.  Will be nice when we're playing with the fancy new version which is seemingly free of this bug. 

Dustin

[elthore]

Its been fun, but unfortunately i must call it quits for now due to the high number of desynchs. I think its caused by my latency to the server which is around 120-130ms ping. On the last map I could leave the computer connected for a while and would remain synchronized, now it seems even without any input that I lose synch. The netcode for simutrans seems not so capable of dealing with high latency clients.

Hope my piles of rails and local city junk don't get in the way too much

and yes, it was again the same error as in the post you linked. I think its possible to assign that vehicle to a different line and put a new one on the problem line as a work-around to the crash?? forgot what i did... but you got it patched ! nice!

[jamespetts]

Elthore,

sorry that you are having trouble with synchronisation. Where in the world are you located, may I ask? I know that it can be very difficult playing networked Simutrans with a very slow client; the latency issue is not one with which I am so familiar.

[sdog]

let's see if the network here in the public library is stable enough to have a look on the server... :-)