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Offline ӔO

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2011, 06:44:54 PM »
I only have the sources for those bridge parts as a sketchup file. I can export them as .dae, but for some reason I can't import them into blender. That is, blender crashes.

edit1: okay, wait, I think I got it to import after exporting from meshlab.
It seems you need to export .dae from sketchup > import to meshlab > export from meshlab as .dae > import to blender


edit2: here are the side parts.
The ones that are longer or shorter than normal are done on purpose. The shorter ones are short because there should be a pillar in the empty space. The longer ones, except the 2 tile arch, should overlap slightly. The 2 tile arch is just the original to most of the arches in there.

edit3
pillars:
rail bridges with no textures:

edit 4, fixed link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17111233/Bridges_ver_collada.rar
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 08:29:20 PM by AEO »

Offline The Hood

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2011, 07:44:30 PM »
Hmm, that link isn't a download, it gives code instead...

I'm beginning to think it might be best if you have the parts available as png files or better as gimp xcf files as I can then add them in layers on top of existing ways/bridge decks to create a range of bridges quite easily.  It's how I've been adapting the bridges you made last year.  I had trouble making any sense of the dae file in blender anyway, all the parts seemed to be on top of each other from several different frames.

Looking back at that old thread, there's a few I'm interested in but the old images seem to have been removed: steel and concrete box girder, beam/I-beam, steel lattice, iron bridge, and of course the miscellaneous parts on the last screenshot from sketchup.

Anyway, here's the beam girder bridge:



I think it's probably best as a slower, lighter, cheaper version of the plate girder.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 07:49:54 PM by The Hood »

Offline ӔO

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2011, 08:15:55 PM »
@hood
I think it might be because firefox thinks its a script?
I could make a rar version in a bit, but you can also do "save link as".

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17111233/Bridges_ver_collada.rar

Offline greenling

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2011, 08:44:43 PM »
The photos from the bridges Aeo be are great! very great!
Thumbs up! :)

Offline sdog

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2011, 10:35:21 PM »
the little spec of snow on the edge of the pillars looks quite good, giving it much more depth.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2011, 08:59:54 AM »
Thanks for the dae files AEO - I can get them into blender no problem but they've lost all their colour and texture in the process.  I'm assuming you don't have correctly scaled png files for them so I can use them as GIMP layers, but even if not, they're still good to make a few different bridge types from.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2011, 12:42:05 PM »
Looking delightful!

Offline sdog

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2011, 06:54:29 PM »
do you think some of the new bridges could be convincingly retouched for pak128?

Offline The Hood

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2011, 06:59:57 PM »
AEO's two bridges probably fit better into pak128 in their original form, and if not it's probably a case of just changing the tracks and nothing else.  I could post the GIMP files for these and you could just change the layer with pak128.Britain tracks for standard pak128 track graphics?  As for the ones I did, I can upload the blend files which could then be adapted in the pak128 style.

Offline ӔO

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2011, 07:58:10 PM »
oh yes, I had to remove the textures and colours, because they were not being correctly applied under meshlab.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2011, 02:42:24 PM »
There seems to be a bug in the .dat file for the plate girder road bridge: its name is still "BrickViaductRoad". See here.

Edit: On a different matter, once the concrete supported bridges have been done, it should be fairly straightforward to make an elevated way version of them, should it not?

Edit 2: I have had an idea about how to draw suspension and cantelever bridges: pillar repetition frequency can be defined, so all that needs to happen is to make all of the non-uniform part of the bridge into a pillar. So long as the graphics for pillars are allowed to pretrude beyond the tile boundary either side and the top of the bridge, it should in theory be possible to have the entire set of supports and cables for a suspension bridge (for example) defined as one pillar. I am not sure how well this would work, but worth a try, perhaps?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 03:08:05 PM by jamespetts »

Offline ӔO

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2011, 04:12:53 PM »
@james

I've toyed with the idea of using a larger pak size to draw large arches and suspensions, but concluded it was fairly difficult to align properly, the lengths, heights must be absolutes and pillars lack a front image for over deck pillars to be drawn correctly.

It should be possible to do this for large arches and elaborate trusses or cantilevers, but only in certain lengths. The deck will repeat itself for X tiles, so the deck must remain plain, but the ends can be enlarged so that they will touch each other graphically. I think one can get a 4 tile bridge if one uses pak192 on a pak128 environment. 6 tiles for something drawn in 256 and so on. However, they can't be shorter either, since the images won't mesh properly.

It should be possible to do this for suspensions, but it can't be any higher than 1 tile, because pillars will stack if there is more than one height. They also need a front image to be drawn correctly. It is the same idea as enlarging and extending the ends, but this time, it is only done with the pillar.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 04:18:50 PM by AEO »

Offline wlindley us

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2011, 07:32:59 PM »
One "graphical hack" that might help, is that tiles are drawn in the order of closeness to the viewer; and they are not clipped at all. 

For example, a thin vertical wall aligned on the center of the tile, such that the first pixel is drawn in the very lower-left corner, would have a maximum visual dimension of 128 pixels "long" and 96 pixels "tall" in pak128; it would halfway overlap the tile to its "east" and "west" but if you arrange your building tiles carefully, you can use this to advantage.  In other words, feel free to go beyond the usual 64x64 diamond inside of pak128.  I did this in the walls for the new Tower of London graphic if you'd like to see what I mean.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2011, 09:48:20 AM »
Regarding graphical hacks for bridges the following need to be borne in mind about the current implementation:
1) the "deck" is a single repeating image along the length of the bridge - only one is allowed.
2) the pillars are a single repeating image vertically - if you tried to use this with pillar frequencies of two or more tiles, it would be fine if the bridge height is no less than a single tile, but for higher bridges it would look odd as the image would repeat below.
3) front images are not possible for pillars.

I'm struggling to see how you could get around all of these problems - the best attempt I saw was using stations to provide the bridge parts, but it was an ugly hack as it took a lot of menu space and wasn't entirely intuitive.

If we want those types of bridges a code change is probably the only decent way of doing it, and that would be of interest beyond pak128.Britain.  It must be possible as OpenTTD manages to do it (and always has).  If anyone is familiar with the code for that maybe they could try a patch?  Anyway, I suggest this discussion is continued here: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=8788.0 as it is not related specifically to pak128.Britain. 

Use this thread to discuss pak128.Britain bridges (hopefully one or two more to follow later...)

Offline The Hood

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2011, 10:28:59 PM »
Some progress - completed steel truss rail bridge.  I decided to go with player colours for now.


Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2011, 10:37:38 PM »
Very nice!

Offline sdog

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2011, 03:19:45 AM »
to say it in the words of another forum member: "this looks very good out!"

the new floor and end tiles of the bridge are outstanding, quite an improvement from earlier versions, and other bridges. Your masterpiece.




edit: posted it in the blog
http://blog.simutrans.com/?p=1833
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 05:10:08 AM by sdog »

Offline The Hood

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2011, 09:26:01 AM »
Thanks sdog (and thanks for not hyping it up by saying "probably in the spring!".  Very vague; nice!

Probably not going to get many awards, but very functional: a simple concrete viaduct.  Essentially the modern replacement for the brick viaduct.  High speed version to come.


Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2011, 11:25:40 AM »
These are most impressive.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2011, 01:32:34 PM »
And a road version of the concrete viaduct - credit here to AEO; I finished off what he started.



EDIT: And a high speed rail concrete viaduct:

« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 03:04:50 PM by The Hood »

Offline The Hood

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2011, 09:49:45 PM »
And three more road bridges - all using AEO's parts:

1) Basic concrete beam bridge



2) Concrete deck steel truss



3) Concrete deck steel cantilever



EDIT: All of these are now in SVN. I've removed the two fastest Brick viaducts to be replaced with the new concrete ones, but this should be taken care of in old saves via compat.tab.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 10:40:54 PM by The Hood »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2011, 11:16:50 PM »
Splendid!

Offline ӔO

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2011, 02:06:53 AM »
It's good to see those parts being put to good use by an expert :)

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2011, 04:11:54 AM »
I've been watching this thread with glee at all the beautiful bridges. :-)

Offline VS

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2011, 09:39:38 AM »
I'm mostly green with envy :D

Offline ӔO

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2011, 02:40:19 PM »
@hood

just two nitpicks with the names on #1 and #3.
#1 looks more like a plate girder, rather than a beam bridge. Beam bridges will have no supports showing on top or under the deck, except for the pillars.
#3 looks more like a steel through arch bridge.

Offline Milko

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #61 on: December 21, 2011, 03:38:10 PM »
Hello

These bridges and the work done by Wlindley are a great Christmas gift .... Thanks

Giuseppe

Offline The Hood

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2011, 09:09:48 PM »
just two nitpicks with the names on #1 and #3.
#1 looks more like a plate girder, rather than a beam bridge. Beam bridges will have no supports showing on top or under the deck, except for the pillars.
#3 looks more like a steel through arch bridge.

AEO, you seem to know rather a lot more about bridge nomenclature than I do.  Is there any particular logic? Seems the "common" names I'm familiar with easily confuse the deck type and the structure type etc.

These bridges and the work done by Wlindley are a great Christmas gift .... Thanks

I'm planning a pre-Christmas release with these in.  If you're really lucky, there may be some extra bridges too (depending on how much time I get in the next couple of days)

Offline Milko

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #63 on: December 21, 2011, 09:18:36 PM »
Hello

I'm planning a pre-Christmas release with these in.  If you're really lucky, there may be some extra bridges too (depending on how much time I get in the next couple of days)

I too, if I have time, I can do a little Christmas gift to pak128brit. Maybe we will put it right in the pre-Christmas release ....

Giuseppe

Offline ӔO

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2011, 11:10:31 AM »
@hood
I agree that the distinctions can become rather difficult with some bridges. To make matters worse, some are even combinations or hybrids of two or more types.
I wouldn't call myself an expert on bridges, but you are on the right track with what what supporting structures the bridge uses. (In fact I recently realized that I have gotten the rotation of the I-beams wrong on those trusses I've made. They should have the flat side facing outwards, so they have more surface area at the joints. oops :-[ )

Surprisingly, wiki has quite a comprehensive list with pictures for bridge types.
It can be a lot of info to digest, however.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridge_types

To break down the types, without getting into too much detail, I suppose some basic analysis of how it's shaped and how the load is distributed would work.

Basically, it breaks down into:
Compression - Deck keeps itself up by using its own weight. Concrete only works well in compression.
Tension - Deck is kept up with tension (suspension) from structure above it. Steel or iron is most desirable for this.
Neither - Deck is kept up by resisting forces that would otherwise bend it in half.

 Through "" bridge - The main support structure is only above deck. Works in both compression and tension.
 Half-through  "" bridge - The main support structure is both above and below deck. Works in both compression and tension.
 Deck "" bridge - Often omitted, but this means the main support structure is entirely below the deck. Mostly works in compression to keep the deck up.

Many bridges work in compression and tension. Some work only in compression. Vertical pillars obviously only have compression forces on them.
  • Arches only work in compression, but cables or beams tied below it can act in tension. It's like leaning two pillars against each other.
  • Cantilever mainly works in tension. The upper section  is in tension and holds up the ends, much like a person holding groceries with their arms. The pillars/legs are only located in the center and it must balance itself.
  • Suspensions work with strung cables in tension only. Similar in concept to cantilever.
  • Trusses work in both compression and tension, whether the structure is above or below the deck. They allow longer spans than girders and boxes alone.
  • Beams, girders and boxes simply work be resisting bending against the weight. These are very plain looking and most cannot span too far without pillars to keep them up.

Offline Lord Vetinari

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #65 on: December 23, 2011, 05:22:30 PM »
Finally, with the vacations I can get back to Simutrans. During the holidays I'll finish the elevated way version of my bridge and post it. Great work  with the bridges in this topic, btw!

I downloaded the new version, I noticed that there is a small misalignement problem with my bridge that doesn't happen in my test pak file. Either the image file or the dat file used for the official release are not the right ones. I'll repost them, if you wish.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #66 on: December 24, 2011, 09:37:10 AM »
If you could repost them I will investigate.

Offline The Hood

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2012, 09:08:52 AM »
Work in progress: Iron lattice girder (again courtesy of AEO's parts)



EDIT: now with snow too.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 10:29:12 AM by The Hood »

Offline greenling

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2012, 12:46:05 PM »
THe Hood
The Brides on the photo looks great out.
It´s make the game very nice to play.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: Bridges
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2012, 01:01:54 PM »
Very nice!