The International Simutrans Forum

 

Author Topic: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets  (Read 10829 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Foxglove

  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Languages: EN, RU
Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« on: December 19, 2011, 11:14:12 PM »
Ability to rename any building would allow players to name buildings as we can rename factories now, it would make some kind of streets and houses numbers system ingame, ability to give names to streets like in Simcity 4 would be also welcome, but it doesnt seem that possible.
So... Is it possible to add renaming of any building then?

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

  • Benevolent Dictator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 3649
  • PanamaCityPC.com/support/
    • Facebook Profile
  • Languages: EN
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2011, 12:49:29 AM »
I'd like street renaming, but... define a "street" - that's the main problem, I think. :)

Building renaming makes some sense, although the primary reason I supported factory naming was that there were places the factory name was used, and it is better to be able to give custom, meaningful names.

Offline Foxglove

  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Languages: EN, RU
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2011, 05:08:38 AM »
The same with usual buildings. I would build something like real street in my town using buildings names.

Offline prissi

  • Developer
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 9454
  • Languages: De,EN,JP
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2011, 08:54:05 AM »
With the label tool you can easily name a street visually, at least.

Offline Fabio

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2898
  • The Pak128 Guy
    • Visit me on Facebook
  • Languages: EN, IT, RO, FR
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2011, 09:19:28 AM »
It would be nice a tool to name streets just like a way object (but compatible with it on the same tile). stops would use the street names. Maybe a towncouncil AI could name streets and do other city micromanagement in background (e.g. Widen avenues like proposef elsewhere)

Offline Zeno

  • ENASSA Designer
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 1997
    • Zeno's Simutrans Creations
  • Languages: ES, EN, CAT
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2011, 09:49:49 AM »
I'd like street renaming, but... define a "street" - that's the main problem, I think. :)
Well, with few rules we may define streets:
1) Three or more road tiles in a row ( N<->S or W<->E) with or without crossings could be considered a street
2) Street would end on last road tile before end-of-road (or turn at end)
3) A single road tile could be considered part of none, one or two streets
4) Diagonal roads can not be considered as streets (limitation)

The main problem I think it would be implementation of these rules, or maybe how to store/use these rules; also they would probably contribute to extra cpu consumption...
IMHO, not sure on how worthy would be such an implementation. But it would be visually nice, no doubt.

Offline prissi

  • Developer
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 9454
  • Languages: De,EN,JP
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2011, 09:55:07 AM »
Also street are some cultural concepts. For instance in japan the use of street names is uncommon (actually only very few street have names at all).

Offline Fabio

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2898
  • The Pak128 Guy
    • Visit me on Facebook
  • Languages: EN, IT, RO, FR
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2011, 10:06:31 AM »
This is the least concern, as they could be optionally turned off or set to numbers.

Offline ojii

  • *
  • Posts: 149
  • Languages: EN, DE, JA
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2011, 12:57:56 PM »
Also street are some cultural concepts. For instance in japan the use of street names is uncommon (actually only very few street have names at all).

So could we have Japan-style naming too? Using the Japanese method one could give every house a name, since their system is a lot easier to implement programatically.

Offline Foxglove

  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Languages: EN, RU
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2011, 03:26:27 PM »
No I dont need to put labels on every house, I just want to click on each and see info in data about the building, and ability to edit the name, exactly like with factories. I think this way is much better than labels way for streets names and buildings naming either.

Offline MHD

  • *
  • Posts: 197
  • Languages: DE,EN,CZ,FR
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2011, 05:33:50 PM »
I also would appreciate the concept of street names. There should be also an option to rename them customly.

The method of adding labels on the street is not nice, when you have bigger maps. Then, the label list gets a size, which you soon cannot handle. During I constructed my giant map of Prague, the label list soon got very messy with almost never-ending entries in the list. Even you couldn't use the sidebars anymore.

When streets in different cities have duplicate names, the you will only have same text labels, only distinguished by the coordinates. I didn't find this solution very helpful. Second thing is the look of the maps, when you use the labels. Especially, when you zoom out the map, you will soon get a label-mess. It is true, that it is possible, but imho it is not a good solution...
I like Zenos thoughts concerning the topics...

Offline Emil Sawicki

  • *
  • Posts: 197
  • pak128 player
  • Languages: CZ, EN, NO, PL
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2011, 04:42:42 PM »
Well, with few rules we may define streets:
1) Three or more road tiles in a row ( N<->S or W<->E) with or without crossings could be considered a street
2) Street would end on last road tile before end-of-road (or turn at end)
3) A single road tile could be considered part of none, one or two streets
4) Diagonal roads can not be considered as streets (limitation)

Good idea, but I think it requires one rule more:
5) Parallel streets can have different names if they are distant from each other with at least one tile. This is needed to avoid situation, when two lane street has two names.

Code: [Select]
two lane street:
hhhhhhh  houses
-------  right lane
-------  left lane, same name as above lane
hhhhhhh  houses

two streets:
-------  street A
hhhhhhh  at least single row of houses
-------  street B

Offline Ters

  • Coder/patcher
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 5469
  • Languages: EN, NO
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2011, 06:38:39 PM »
I don't like Zeno's four rules because it will lead to both too many and too few streets. When cities grow unattended, they tend to build roads that don't align perfectly, but which in real life would or would not be considered the same street. Streets making turns or even loops are also not uncommon, not to mention streets running diagonally.

Offline prissi

  • Developer
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 9454
  • Languages: De,EN,JP
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2011, 09:00:24 PM »
As simutrans supports copy and paste and one can rename stops, any solution seems to require rather too much read my minf compared to a list in aneditor and a copy and paste action to rename newly built stops ...

Offline sdog

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 2039
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2011, 10:42:57 PM »
automated street names similar to zenos suggestion would not just be cosmetic, but also improve playability quite a bit. Manual sollutions, with copy and paste are not very well applyable, the numbers of bus stops are just too large. eg. for a game with 200 cities one quickly gets to 1000 stops. With several dozen bus stops in medium to large cities it often is difficult to keep an overview.

Offline IgorEliezer br

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 4083
  • Cake recipes are cool... REALLY!
    • Igor Eliezer Architect and Urban Planner/Arquiteto e Urbanista
  • Languages: PT, EN, AutoLISP, Python
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2011, 02:47:09 AM »
As simutrans supports copy and paste and one can rename stops, any solution seems to require rather too much read my mind (...)
When "read-my-mind" takes place, it's better to let the user define what to do. Considering the there are countless possibilities of what a street could be or look like, I think the user could very well "paint" the road tiles and give them a name.

My idea is to extend a bit the concept of "label tool", by making a "Name tool", similar to the markers you find in http://wikimapia.org:

- If I want to name a point: click on one tile, type a name in a box, OK.
- If I want to name a path: click on the points of the path (pt1, pt2, pt3, pt4... ptn), type a name, and OK. Useful to name streets, avenues, limits, borders etc.
- If I want to name an area/region: click on the points that make enclosed region (or just a rectangle), type a name, and OK. Useful for blocks, zones, districts etc.

"Name tool" would be a Public service-only tool, because we're going to give names to geographic places. On the other hand, "Label tool" is a player tool, just as it is now.

Along with "Name tool", a "Show/Hide" tool to toggle the labels and markers, and a "List of Named Places", just like "List of Player Signs". The player could access the name tool, but as read-only mode. He can see the names in the game view, he can access the list, but he can't edit it.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 03:16:17 AM by IgorEliezer »

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

  • Benevolent Dictator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 3649
  • PanamaCityPC.com/support/
    • Facebook Profile
  • Languages: EN
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2011, 03:27:59 AM »
Okay, those are some awesome ideas right there. Wow.

We could have countries and states and counties and such...

Offline IgorEliezer br

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 4083
  • Cake recipes are cool... REALLY!
    • Igor Eliezer Architect and Urban Planner/Arquiteto e Urbanista
  • Languages: PT, EN, AutoLISP, Python
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2011, 03:36:30 AM »
We could have countries and states and counties and such...
O.O' .... I didn't think that far.

Offline Isaac.Eiland-Hall us

  • Benevolent Dictator
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 3649
  • PanamaCityPC.com/support/
    • Facebook Profile
  • Languages: EN
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2011, 05:15:33 AM »
One of the things I loved about Railraod Tycoon 2 was the territories :)

Speaking of which, when discussing scenarios, the RT2 system was *amazing*. Could be used as a model :)

Offline IgorEliezer br

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 4083
  • Cake recipes are cool... REALLY!
    • Igor Eliezer Architect and Urban Planner/Arquiteto e Urbanista
  • Languages: PT, EN, AutoLISP, Python
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2011, 07:43:21 AM »
One of the things I loved about Railraod Tycoon 2 was the territories :)
Back in Simutrans 0.8x era, I used a lot to mark with a "LM" (Limit of Municipality) sign or some hills the boundaries of my cities. It was a way I found to help me to organize my transportation system.

For example, If I had to set up some bus lines, the buses could go to these limits. If there were a factory, touristic attractions or suburban houses beyond the limit, it was "supplied" by the network of other city. Then, my buses always ran the shortest distance between the cityhall and the last stop.



EDIT:

I think we derailed the topic. :o
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 07:58:12 AM by IgorEliezer »

Offline Foxglove

  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Languages: EN, RU
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2012, 06:42:12 AM »
Happy new year there! Such a nice ideas you have. But realizing these ideas will take some more time, than just making simple ability to rename buildings or to implement a tool to name things "from A to B", like streets in Simcity 4 Rush Hour has been able to be named. So I am miserably requesting an ability to rename usual buildings (residental, commercial and industrial ones), like it is done with factories, to be added in one of next nightly builds. Not talking about generating streetnames, making special lables, but just to rename res/com/ind lots like its done with factories, for the first time, even this minor change would organize system of streets very well.

Obviously, I totally agree with Igor about Name tool, with Isaac about boundaries, these ideas would push Simutrans' role up, but implementing these features will take much more time. So we would have to wait more. Actually, this is the reason of me requesting adding that little change in next nightly already, to prevent waiting much and to start organizing our towns already soon.

Thanks in advance!

Offline jamespetts gb

  • Simutrans-Extended project coordinator
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 18547
  • Cake baker
    • Bridgewater-Brunel
  • Languages: EN
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2012, 11:32:27 AM »
Won't storing a string for every single city building on a large map greatly increase memory consumption?

Offline Fabio

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2898
  • The Pak128 Guy
    • Visit me on Facebook
  • Languages: EN, IT, RO, FR
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2012, 11:53:18 AM »
Strings could be stoted in a cache file and retrieved only on demand when opening building dialog, maybe? I still see few point in it, as renaming all buildings would be painstakingly and add so few to gameplay or to map appearance. Also buildings can be upgraded. What will become of their names? maybe an individual string could be given to those buildings purchased by the player.

Offline Foxglove

  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Languages: EN, RU
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2012, 02:41:54 AM »
I'd give names to lots, not just buildings. They shouldnt be generated, but to be able to be just edited, like factories names now. Default value can be empty, until someone changes it, so it will probably save memory.

Offline prissi

  • Developer
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 9454
  • Languages: De,EN,JP
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2012, 09:36:26 AM »
You can use Labels for this too. In priciple, simutrans can name any piece of land.

Offline MagnusA

  • *
  • Posts: 35
  • Languages: SV, EN
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2012, 11:12:15 AM »
Maybe I am blind, but I cannot find the label tool. Or is it just another name for the signs available from the "Special Construction Tools"?

I am using ST 111.0 (English) with standard pak64.

Offline missingpiece

  • *
  • Posts: 100
  • Languages: DE, PT, EN, FR
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2012, 11:39:30 AM »
I support Foxglove's request to name any building. While it may not yet be obvious how it will translate to game play, it appears a very low-hanging fruit -- similar to factory naming -- and we can see what to do with it later. Or is that too much of gold plate development ?

Automatic street name generation -- while intriguing -- may not be very feasible due to the problems laid out as to letting the computer guess what is a street. But it is only that, since the citylist and syllable generator concepts could easily be extended for streets, IMHO. However, what IgorEliezer suggested to name points, paths, territories appears to me absolutely amazing.

Street naming would definitely enhance gameplay if street names were used by the game to name new stops ! Same goes for industry names without saying.

Offline Combuijs

  • Web Team
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 1392
  • Maintainer of maps.simutrans.com
    • Combuijs
  • Languages: EN, NL
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2012, 01:00:01 PM »
Quote
Maybe I am blind, but I cannot find the label tool. Or is it just another name for the signs available from the "Special Construction Tools"?

It is indeed another name for the signs in the "Special construction tool". Press "M" as an alternative.

Offline sdog

  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 2039
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2012, 01:59:29 AM »
Quote
Automatic street name generation -- while intriguing -- may not be very feasible due to the problems laid out as to letting the computer guess what is a street.
the streets are auto-generated according to cityrules, by a set of arbitrary rules. (arbitrary as in they could be different if a different result was desired.)

Why should one demand more of the realism in assigning street names than the degree of realism we get from city generation, it is not perfect, but it works.

With regard to performance, the street names wouldn't have to be queried often, only for construction of stops or user click on the tile. stretches of street below two tiles length wouldn't need to be named anyway. memory shouldn't be an issue.

that doesn't say anything about priority or efficient use of developer time though.

@prissi: the label tool, putting a sign on the map is only a cosmetic thing, displaying it for the players. it doesn't change names in timetables or influences naming of nearby stops. i shouldn't think that's what Foxglove had in mind.

Offline missingpiece

  • *
  • Posts: 100
  • Languages: DE, PT, EN, FR
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2012, 10:13:37 AM »
Sounds good. If "what is a street" could directly be answered during city building / extension, then one issue is solved.

What about streets built by the player ? I am still a noob, but I am putting down street tiles trying to influence how the city extends. Maybe that is in vain ? Anyhow, the street tiles I am putting down may still form what I consider a namable street (e. g. longer than two tiles, no crossings with other streets) and consequently give a name to it deliberately.

I hope it is agreed : if streets should in future get names, that should happen automatically, yes, when ever the game generates street tiles, so to preset the name. But the user should be allowed to input and override later on.

Offline Dwachs

  • DevTeam, Coder/patcher
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 4564
  • Languages: EN, DE, AT
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2012, 11:42:59 AM »
There is now the possibility to name stops from a list of given street names. This list can be huge. It can simulate street names, in the sense that halts are named like irl street names. Of course, the street name came into existence only due to the creation of halts.

What would the proposed feature really mean to gameplay? In which respect is it superior to what is already implemented??

Offline Foxglove

  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Languages: EN, RU
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2012, 12:39:46 PM »
Well Prissi, theres no point in adding big amount of labels, since they will make the map looking awful. I just meant the same way of naming lots/buildings as those you did with factories.

Offline Fabio

  • Devotee
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2898
  • The Pak128 Guy
    • Visit me on Facebook
  • Languages: EN, IT, RO, FR
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2012, 01:41:08 PM »
What would the proposed feature really mean to gameplay? In which respect is it superior to what is already implemented??

two stops on Main Street would be named e.g. Main Strert east stop and Main Street west stop, whereas now they would be named Main Street stop and Wall Street Stop. Been named aftet the same street would give you the idea e.g. in schedules that the two stops are near and the bus doesn't need to make turns between them.

Offline VS

  • Senior Plumber (Devotee)
  • Devotee
  • *
  • Posts: 4855
  • Vladimír Slávik
    • VS's Simutrans site
  • Languages: CS,EN
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2012, 02:07:25 PM »
Given that blocks are usually 2x2 and default station coverage has radius 2, that would not happen ;)

Offline missingpiece

  • *
  • Posts: 100
  • Languages: DE, PT, EN, FR
Re: Ability to rename any building and give names to streets
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2012, 09:22:48 PM »
"The street" would have to continue after the crossing as long as there is no turn. Oh, wait,....actually, even along the turn if there is no T-intersection of which it is the vertical part of the T.... think of the connection streets between cities !

Does that get too complex ?  :o


I was all for deliberate path and area naming anyway, as Igor had described. :) Then it is player-controlled.