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Author Topic: 1970 - no trams  (Read 5961 times)

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Offline chs

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1970 - no trams
« on: January 05, 2012, 09:56:04 PM »
I am playing a game using pak brit exp 0.8.3, started in 1950, now in 1972.
For about 4 years now there is no tram available. Old engines no longer produced, but not yet a new one available.
This blocks connecting new cities, because often there are too many cars to use buses.

If new tramways are not yet designed or ready to use, at least the last old tram should be available until a newer one is available.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2012, 10:04:59 PM »
The unavailability of trams in the 1970s is not entirely unintentional, as no trams were built in the UK during that period (until the rebuilds of the Blackpool trams in 1978). Indeed, from the late 1960s to the early 1990s, Blackpool's little tramway was the only in the country, and was more a tourist attraction than a serious alternative to the motor 'bus.

It is always a somewhat difficult question of game balance what one does about this. Currently, the situation is intended to reflect the UK as it actually was: one in which new trams were simply not built during that period, so trams are unavailable. The only alternative would be to make the Sheffield Roberts or perhaps the Blackpool Progress Twin available right into the late 1970s - but it would be very odd for such old vehicles to be built at that time.

Offline chs

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2012, 10:19:23 PM »
Thank you for the explanation. I considered that reason and thought its unlikely.

To avoid this "10 year fast forward" I am doing now, and to keep historical correctness as an option, maybe it would be possible to have a setting which allows extra vehicles such as a tram in this time period. It could be explained as importing a tram from another country since none was available, what maybe happened. And by making it an optional setting, players would by default have the normal historically correct vehicles. What do you think?

Offline wlindley us

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2012, 10:32:07 PM »
The same situation will occur whenever pak128.USA is released: after the end of "PCC" tram production in 1952, and the last long-distance rail coaches for Kansas City Southern in 1965, a long gap exists, almost until the present time, in which hardly any passenger equipment of any type was built.

In these cases, it might be interesting to plot "alternate" realities having a handful vehicles that "could have been" ... Perhaps these should be available as Add-ons?

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2012, 10:34:04 PM »
Actually, there is such a setting in simuconf.tab: if you uncomment the line "allow_buying_obsolete_vehicles = 1" (by removing the leading #), you will be able to press a "show obsolete" button and see (and buy) all vehicles from the past that were once in production but are now no longer.

(WLindley's idea of having hypothetical vehicles as optional addons is an interesting one!)

Offline chs

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2012, 10:41:24 PM »
great! I will use that setting!
Thanks for the help!

And I support the idea of hypothetical vehicles as an addon.

Offline AP

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2012, 11:04:22 PM »
Alternatively, are there precedents in continental europe of trams being built in the period? I suggest that, had a UK city suddenly wanted a few trams in the 1970s, lacking any suitable UK workshops producing them, they might well have looked to other nearby countries and imported them.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 11:54:54 PM »
Alternatively, are there precedents in continental europe of trams being built in the period? I suggest that, had a UK city suddenly wanted a few trams in the 1970s, lacking any suitable UK workshops producing them, they might well have looked to other nearby countries and imported them.

Hmm, actually, I rather suspect that they'd get a British manufacturer to make a tram by using a contemporary 'bus body, suitably modified, and put on tram chassis.

Offline AP

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2012, 07:33:50 AM »
Maybe! Can't be 'avin' any of that Continental rubbish!  ;D

Offline sdog

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2012, 08:47:07 AM »
trams are quite a bit too different from buses to get anywhere with that approach. refurbishing an old tram would be more likely. buying from canada would have been possible too.

if there would have been demand, from the transportation companies, trams would have been built. in the game we are those companies.

as a compromise, you could put hypothetical or foreign vehicles into an addon package. trams, trolleybuses, high speed trains, diesel-hydraulic engines.

Offline ӔO

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2012, 09:33:23 AM »
I would simply suggest rebuilt and overhauled trams of previously existing ones.
In the real world, it's not entirely unusual to rebuild new trams and trains from the parts of retired and damaged stock. Especially true when the company is poor or there are a lack of new options.

Offline prissi

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2012, 10:03:23 AM »
For instance the whole Tampa (Fl) tram system runs on old chassis with new electrics. Only recently they ordered new ones. Same was done in several parts. The San Franscisco tram system bought retired trams from all over the world (even india) and refurbished them.

But you would do this only, if there is already an existing tram network.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2012, 11:31:21 AM »
Hmm - I mentioned the 'bus bodies because the refurbishments of the Blackpool trams at the end of the 1970s used bodies based closely on 'buses of the day. The question is, though, if one were to draw a new hypothetical tram for this period - what would it look like?

Offline ӔO

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2012, 12:37:34 PM »
Hmm - I mentioned the 'bus bodies because the refurbishments of the Blackpool trams at the end of the 1970s used bodies based closely on 'buses of the day. The question is, though, if one were to draw a new hypothetical tram for this period - what would it look like?
I would guess, if built new, like a Leeds 602
but not like a Tatra T3, because it would have been on the wrong side of the border.

if old stock was collected and reused from other places that closed down, then from my research, Glasgow coronation and Aachen tram would be just about the correct period.
I think the Aachen tram is a Duewag-Einheitswagen GT6z
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 12:48:33 PM by AEO »

Offline sdog

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2012, 09:57:14 PM »
Quote
Hmm - I mentioned the 'bus bodies because the refurbishments of the Blackpool trams at the end of the 1970s used bodies based closely on 'buses of the day.
sorry, for my uninformed reply above then, i should have known better, you usually don't mention such a thing without knowing it. It very much surprises me though, as as the structural requirements are massively different from 'buses.

This reminds me of an old feature request of mine, a comment/description field of pracitcally unlimited length that could be shown in depot and convoy dialogues. a place where pak authors could provide background information on their addons. For such hypothetical vehicles, this could be quite usefull, to describe the reasoning behind adopting them.*

Hawker-Siddley was buildingin the Toronto trams in 1977, based on a SIG prototype. If there would have been a real tram network in britain at that time, would an addoption of those been realistic. I suppose light rail legislation in ontario shouldn't be too different from UK, as the metro stock was made in england, by G(loucester)RC&W, based on london tube stock.

While i was writing this CLRV 4037, 4044 and three units forty-unknown was rolling past in front of the window -- all going east, none west. I wonder why TTC doesn't couple them, they bunch so badly with pax only in the first one, it wouldn't make a difference.
hah! there's a westbound 4094 (and 4047)!



update:
*i'm mostly thinking about the demand for a very stiff base along the length, where bogies are mounted, and that takes the force of bumpers and couplers. While the structure of buses most of the structural stiffness comes from the cell itself. I'm a bit lost with the engineering terms in english, in german it is selbsttragende karosserie, it might be monocoque in english (wich in german means something a bit more specific).
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 10:27:29 PM by sdog »

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2012, 10:11:48 PM »
See here for the description of the Jubilee and Centenary trams on the Blackpool tramway - very similar in appearance to contemporary 'buses, although no doubt there would have been structural differences; nonetheless, the (refurbished) Jubilee trams and (new build) Centenary trams were refurbished/built by coachbuilders rather than railway carriage builders.

Offline sdog

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2012, 10:39:57 PM »
they indeed look very much like 'buses.

just a side note, the catenary must be incredibly high. very visible on the centennary units, with the pantograph mounted on a turret.
ReadEditView history

haven't thought of drive-left, buying used trams from abroad and refurbishing might be difficult, unless tram lines could easily switch to drive right.

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2012, 11:04:00 PM »
Ahh, yes, that is a point indeed; but I think that the UK before about the 1990s was very insular in respect of transport procurement, and most public transport infrastructure tended to be British built, so foreign imports seem unlikely.

Offline dannyman

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2012, 11:09:12 PM »
Old thread ...

allow_buying_obsolete_vehicles is a great answer.

Might I suggest that during the gaps, you make the obsolete vehicle available for sale as an overhauled vehicle.  Maybe it is a bit cheaper than the original, because it isn't a new build, but the maintenance costs are higher, because it is an old vehicle.

This reflects common practice in the transit world, especially during lean times: buying used equipment that has already seen a few decades of service elsewhere, then overhauling it and putting it into service for a few more decades. :)

What would be really slick is that if every time you purchased an obsolete vehicle, the price went up a little bit, since demand is growing but supply is inelastic.

Another alternative would be to build a "rehab" engine shop, where obsolete vehicles could be purchased.  Perhaps retired vehicles could be sent to such a shop, and receive a little better resale value, since you have the capability to fix vehicles up a bit before selling them off.  Possibly this shop might have a lag time on getting new equipment in, since it would take a few months to find an obsolete tram, rehab it, and retrofit contemporary safety standards.

-danny

Offline jamespetts gb

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Re: 1970 - no trams
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2012, 12:19:03 PM »
Ahh, this is vaguely similar to something already planned for Experimental: the buying and selling of secondhand vehicles between players.