Chat and command window concept

[IgorEliezer]

Considering this feasible: http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=9367.msg87885#msg87885

I don't think this as request, but as an idea I bring from other multiplayer games. What I have seen in other multiplayer games is that, the chat and command window is not actually a window, it's a text printed in the game view with a darker background. Something like this:


Full image

The purpose of this would be:

1) to make the chat between the players more fluent and friendlier.
I don't think that showing players' dialogs at the bottom of the screen or in small message windows is a good idea.

2) to make command input easier for players and server administrators.
Players and server administrators could use this feature to issue commands with no need of having dialog boxes.

This chat window would have a limit of 5 lines. The last line would be the input line. Each line would auto-hide after 10 seconds and reappear if the player presses the chat shortcut key to input something or if someone in the game uses the chat.

If I enter anything starting with "/" (slash), Simutrans would handle it as a command (e.g. player commands: /nick /goto /playerlist; admin commands: /kick /ban /pause). If no "/" is given, the input would be just a chat.

[An_dz]

This is a nice feature, I also suggested it a while ago. Can't find it now.

But I haven't the topic with that level of explanation. I support.

[jamespetts]

This is a good idea - the current chat system is somewhat cumbersome, especially the lack of word wrap and the necessity for several mouse clicks to get to the chat window, and a further mouse click for each and every line of chat.

[Isaac Eiland-Hall]

Configurable number of lines, I hope.

[greenling]

Those idea it very nice that be missing in Simutrans.

[ӔO]

could there also be a hotkey to display as much chat as the window will allow? 5 lines is not enough in some cases, like when there is a mass retirement or introduction of vehicles.

I think this is usually the 'tab' key for many online games.

[An_dz]

could there also be a hotkey to display as much chat as the window will allow? 5 lines is not enough in some cases, like when there is a mass retirement or introduction of vehicles.

I think Igor thought about only chat messages.

I think this is usually the 'tab' key for many online games.

Usually is the key above 'tab'. ~ in US keyboard. On mine is '

[Ashley]

Good idea. My input:

Have a hotkey to show/hide the window, in addition to a button. (~ is a good choice, or <tab>)
Have it visible upon first joining the server.
Have a way to open a full chat history with scrollable text (keep 2000 lines of history or something like that) so players joining the server can catch up on recent discussion.
Format the text with player colour (with white for spectators)
For players, have the format be:

<Player02 (Tricky Transport)> Hello!

Or for spectators:

<Player10 (Spectator)> Hello!

(This can simply be achieved by locking the "human player" (first company) account and renaming it to Spectator of course). All newly joined players will be "playing" as this account.

All of the /admin commands should be possible either via the in-game terminal as above, or via nettool (identical functionality, if something isn't in nettool it shouldn't be implemented into this new system).

Have the game log chat messages to a configurable location.

[IgorEliezer]

Usually is the key above 'tab'. ~ in US keyboard. On mine is '

In most multiplayer games, the hotkey to open the chat window is either "t" (already taken in Simutrans for tracks) or the key above TAB (~ on US keyboards and ` on UK). I never found a game that uses TAB to open the chat; and I'm not sure we should pick this one, since the TAB is often used to switch modes and to jump from a window or field to another.

could there also be a hotkey to display as much chat as the window will allow? 5 lines is not enough in some cases, like when there is a mass retirement or introduction of vehicles.

I think Igor thought about only chat messages.

Uh.... I'm afraid I didn't get the idea here. For some reason, it seems I'm proposing two different features: a window for chat and another for commands. Just to make sure: it's only one window.

This window is not actually a window, it's a field with a darker background. The height of this field is the number of lines to be displayed plus the input line (the line where you write in). Every time the player receives a message from another player or from the server, a line is printed in that field. Each line will last for some seconds and vanishes. If a new line is printed while the previous one hadn't vanished, a new line is added to the field up to a limit of lines. If there's no activity for a time, the entire field vanishes. If a player wants to use it, he just needs to pres the hotkey and the field is back.

If the player writes anything in the input line, Simutrans will take it as "chat conversation" by default. If the player starts to writh with "/", Simutrans will take it as command (of course, Simutrans will check it first if it's a valid and allowed command).

The commands the player could use:
/nick <text> - changes players name
/goto <x,y> or /@ <x,y> - moves the screen to the x,y point
/playerlist - lists the player in the game, their slot numbers and their status (spectator/playing/admin).
/companylist - lists the companies in the game, their slot numbers and who owns each of them.
/msg <player name or player slot number> <text> - sends a private message to another player.

The commands the admin could use:
All player commands and the following:
/lock <company name or number> - stops any activity of a company
/transfer <company name or number> <player name or number> - transfers the ownership of a company to a player.
/kick <player name or number> - removes a player from the game but still able to rejoin. Useful if someone is causing lag or unstability.
/ban <player name or number, or IP number> - bans a player, he's not able to rejoin until his ban is removed.
/pause - pause the game, nothing can be edited.

Have a hotkey to show/hide the window, in addition to a button. (~ is a good choice, or <tab>)
Have it visible upon first joining the server.
Have a way to open a full chat history with scrollable text (...)

I pretty much like it.

About configuration: The number of lines to be displayed, how long a line will last on the screen and how many lines would be stored in the history could be configurable.

(This can simply be achieved by locking the "human player" (first company) account and renaming it to Spectator of course). All newly joined players will be "playing" as this account.

From a bit I know about multiplayer games, when someone joins the server, this player "occupies" a slot and he's able to change his name, watch the game and chat, this is the spectator mode, he's just invisible. If he desires, he can join the game by pressing a hotkey (e.g. "Press fire or jump key to join the game"), then he's able to actually play the game. I don't think that each player should be bound to a company. Each player occupies a slot and then takes over the companies he wants.

[ӔO]

ah, yes, my mistake, "~" was the correct key.


okay, so this is only for chat and special commands, with the message window being a separate entity entirely?

In that can I can see 5 lines being a good number.

[IgorEliezer]

I edited my post above while ӔO was posting, I hadn't noticed it ^^'

[Isaac Eiland-Hall]

Actually, a handle on the bottom corner to drag-resize might be really awesome...

[An_dz]

could there also be a hotkey to display as much chat as the window will allow? 5 lines is not enough in some cases, like when there is a mass retirement or introduction of vehicles.

I think Igor thought about only chat messages.

Uh.... I'm afraid I didn't get the idea here. For some reason, it seems I'm proposing two different features: a window for chat and another for commands. Just to make sure: it's only one window.

That's what I tried to say, it's because ӔO said about showing all message types. But it's only chat and commands ӔO, answering your question.
---

The usage of player color for the strings is a nice idea. I have a game where you can play with 4 teams and each team have it's own color in chat.

About the commands that involve player names. Some player may have a name with spaces, for those cases I would suggest use the comma to finish the player name. I've seen it in Age of Empires Online and it's a really nice idea. Here's an example:

/msg Igor Eliezer, Do you have enough money to buy some boats??

[Ashley]

And we could have tab-completion for the player names too, to make them easier to type quickly and accurately.

[IgorEliezer]

/msg Igor Eliezer, Do you have enough money to buy some boats??

That one is new for me. I knew it's possible to use "quotes" and player numbers (/msg 2 Do you have enough money to buy some boats?), but nothing about commas.

And we could have tab-completion for the player names too, to make them easier to type quickly and accurately.

That'll be great.

[prissi]

You can easily have a transparent window, which would have the normal resizable triangle handle and a button to reisze it to one line and the like.

[IgorEliezer]

I thought of something that could also be of some use here:

As I said, this in-game chat window would be capable of "issuing" commands while in multi-player mode, for players and server. Now, I got the idea of making it functional in single-player/off-line mode as well. For developers, some commands could be created for debugging, such as /debug on -<param> and /stats to show data about the game. For players, some commands could work as a shortcut if the player doesn't want to use the dialogs, such as /goto <x,y or marker name/ID> and /color <color 1> <color 2> or commands that could customize the game config on the fly.

You can easily have a transparent window, which would have the normal resizable triangle handle and a button to reisze it to one line and the like.

And...

Actually, a handle on the bottom corner to drag-resize might be really awesome...

YAY!

[Kevin Ar18]

This issue is very much a human problem and how people act in-game.  Although simutrans has a basic chat system, I have found that people often don't know how to use it right, and even if they do, the system causes problems.

Before I get into the details, let me add this note: I am in no way criticizing the way the current chat was made.  My guess is that someone found an ingenious way to use to current menu system and features of the game to make a chat system for multiplayer.  If so, it's great that someone was able to add chat in such a creative way to the game.  For most features, this might be an adequate solution.  However, chat is one of those unique items, that I think could use a unique design.


Basic problems:
* chat is buried in menus -- I see many players who never know it's there or how to use it in the first place
* messages are not in-your-face and easy to miss -- Even after I go through much trouble to get someone to use chat, they often miss messages ... I suppose this is due to it being easy to miss as it scrolls by.
* The reply button is also buried in menus.  You basically have to keep the message window open at all times if you want to chat with people.
* There is no good way to communicate with an offline player.  -- I often find the need to tell a player (who is offline) something very important.  The only option is putting sign(s) on the map (which they may never see) or putting a message in chat (which expires or they may never bother to check the chat history).  Thus, it is very difficult to coordinate things with other players in a multiplayer game.

Needs:
* chat needs to be in-your-face -- so people know somebody else is talking to them
* it should be easy to reply back
* chat should not require that you have to keep it open for it to work -- it should always be visible
* there needs to be a way to talk to offline players, so they will definitely see your messages

Simple tweaks that might help right away:
* by default, make chat pop up permanent windows instead of using the scroll

A more ideal solution (if anyone is willing to go through the effort):
* An ideal solution would be to redesign the UI for chat.  Instead of it being inside a window, take a page from most online games and make it a permanent layer over the top of the game.  So... every player sees messages in semi-real-time right in front of them.  You can't miss it.  (Of course, most games let you control how many lines of chat you see, whether it's see-through or not, etc... so it doesn't bother your game.)
* It should be easy to reply back.  Maybe a reply box at the bottom of the chat ... or maybe you press a key and the reply window pops up.
* A permanent message system for offline players:  you send them a message, then, when that player comes on, he is forced to see those messages.
I am unsure what is the best method here.  Maybe the current chat system could be reworked into some type of way to send permanent messages to players.  However, there needs to be an easy way for players to "know" that the messaging system exists.

[prissi]

About the permanent window: You could make the window sticky and resize it to your needs. What difference to a permanent window?

You can also configure player message a windows instead of scrolltext. Those would be more in your face.

About persistent chat messages: Well that is indeed something to think of.

[Kevin Ar18]

About the permanent window: You could make the window sticky and resize it to your needs. What difference to a permanent window?

You can also configure player message a windows instead of scrolltext. Those would be more in your face.

About persistent chat messages: Well that is indeed something to think of.

I guess I should clarify that I can live with the current system as I am pretty good with computers.  However, the problem I often see if that many, many people can't seem to figure out the chat system ... or if they do figure it out, don't always reply or see messages.  So, these suggestions are not because I can't use the chat system, but because I see others having a hard time and would really like to be able to talk to them more.

Now, to figure out why other people are having such a hard time, I had to try and put myself in their shoes to see what might be causing issues... and so I came up with the list you saw.  I hope this perspective might be helpful and not seen as a way to put down the developer's hard work.

In reference to specifics:
* A permanent window is less than ideal solution because it blocks part of the game.
However, instead of focusing on the negative, perhaps it might be interesting to consider how other games handle chat?
> Many games make chat see through.  You just see text, so you don't lose any screen space to play the game.
> Some games use a more solid layer, but permanently position it in just the right spot so it is the least distracting.  (A good area for this style, is a small layer in the top, center of the screen.)
> Some games require a simple click or key press to type a reply.  This has the double benefit of not using screenspace till you need it and make chatting really quick.


* One option that both you and I mentioned is changing the game so it uses permanent (not timed) message windows instead of the text scroll.  If nobody is interested in a more in-depth change, then this would definitely go a long way towards improving things.  However, the key is that this should be the default setting... since the problem is the majority of *other* players out there and not the ones who know how to customize the game already.

So... take it as far as you want to...  a simple tweak to the config file... or, if anyone is interested, a re-design that is more like other multiplayer games and easier to use.  Again, don't think of this as putting down the developer's hard work... instead, look at it from my perspective.  I see many, many people who are having trouble with chat... it's sometime frustrating trying to communicate with them... so I figured maybe I could suggest some ways to solve those people's problems and get more people talking in-game.

[IgorEliezer]

I suggested something related about an improved chat window a while ago:

Chat and command window concept
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=9379.0

[Kevin Ar18]

I suggested something related about an improved chat window a while ago:

Chat and command window concept
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=9379.0

Ah, thanks for that... It seems to fit pretty close for the most part.


I think this regular chat could also be used to integrate a permanent (offline) messages too:

For example:
* Permanent(offline) messages show up inside this chat window, but do not disappear.
* Beside each permanent message is an x that you must click to manually get rid of it.
* Of course, there needs to be some intuitive way to send offline/permanent messages (but different than regular chat, but still really easy to spot).

Should I switch discussion over to that thread?

[IgorEliezer]

Should I switch discussion over to that thread?

Why if we can keep everything in one place? I'm merging both topics into single one.

EDIT: done.

[Dwachs]

These are sensible requests. Any patch addressing this has a very *HIGH* probability to be included *VERY SOON*.

We are in desperate need of programmers with time at their hands

[IgorEliezer]

We are in desperate need of programmers with time at their hands

If I remember correctly, a coder was working on this feature.

(not meaning I want to hurry someone up :x )

[Yona-TYT]

is possible to copy and paste text?
It would be nice to translate a conversation, for example, 

[prissi]

Copy and paste works; but only under windows, as under Linux it depends very much on the window manager.

[An_dz]

I suggested something related about an improved chat window a while ago:

Chat and command window concept
http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?topic=9379.0

Oh thanks, I was seeking this discussion.

[prissi]

At least a transparent network char image is now in.

[IgorEliezer]

At least a transparent network char image is now in.

Just out of curiosity: How is it going?  Of course, I don't want to hurry up anyone.

[prissi]

Try yourself, as there is a nightly server which has 25% transparency enabled. Or what do you mean?

[IgorEliezer]

Nice, I'd love seeing it, but I can't join. I'm getting "Server did not respond!".

EDIT:

Wait. It's up. But the server is running r6160, and the latest available nightly is r6154. How can I get that revision?

[Yona-TYT]

Try yourself, as there is a nightly server which has 25% transparency enabled. Or what do you mean?

prissi, ¿You can give me the executable to test it?

[prissi]

Please dowload it form the nightly page. THe pak 64 you find in the thread for the nightly server.

[Yona-TYT]

ok, thank you very much Prissi
It looks great 

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